Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
Replies
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I tried this logic earlier. Don't do it man. These things are clearly random mutations because, in our history, we were vegetarian and there is no such thing as an omnivore.This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
*cough*0 -
Absolutely regardless of what it was that was attacking humans, the second in this chain of quotes seems to insist that we can verbally convince another species that it's wrong to eat us. Quite simply, if another species evolved to be bigger, smarter, stronger and more deadly than humans then we'd fight to survive and either dwindle greatly in population or go extinct.
Not to mention that they wouldn't understand a word we said. Perhaps someone has been taking Star Trek a little too literally.0 -
I hear human is pretty gamey...we'd be safe eventually when tastier things were discovered. Did they eat humans on Star Trek????Absolutely regardless of what it was that was attacking humans, the second in this chain of quotes seems to insist that we can verbally convince another species that it's wrong to eat us. Quite simply, if another species evolved to be bigger, smarter, stronger and more deadly than humans then we'd fight to survive and either dwindle greatly in population or go extinct.
Not to mention that they wouldn't understand a word we said. Perhaps someone has been taking Star Trek a little too literally.0 -
I tried this logic earlier. Don't do it man. These things are clearly random mutations because, in our history, we were vegetarian and there is no such thing as an omnivore.This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
*cough*
Even though the literal meaning of 'omnivore' is 'everything eater'. Apparently the fact that humans do, can, and have for thousands of years eaten meat without dying shortly after isn't evidence enough to suggest that we are 'omnivorous'0 -
lol, I remember an episode of The Twilight Zone where the alien intruders had a book called "To Serve Man" which turned out to be a cookbook11
I hear human is pretty gamey...we'd be safe eventually when tastier things were discovered. Did they eat humans on Star Trek????Absolutely regardless of what it was that was attacking humans, the second in this chain of quotes seems to insist that we can verbally convince another species that it's wrong to eat us. Quite simply, if another species evolved to be bigger, smarter, stronger and more deadly than humans then we'd fight to survive and either dwindle greatly in population or go extinct.
Not to mention that they wouldn't understand a word we said. Perhaps someone has been taking Star Trek a little too literally.0 -
I feel the same way about this as I do about religion. Do what you like, I will do my best to respect your views unless you're doing something that I am morally opposed to. I will try to remember your stance and bear that in mind, but cut me some slack if I forget.
If you try to force your way of life on me or ride me too much for not remembering some detail about how you want to live, well then I'll be the pr*ck that actively tries to piss you off and mocks you in public.
Also please pass the bacon.
This made me laugh. I feel the same way, except without the pissing people off part, I am not very good at that. My sister recently chose to stop eating meat and is doing fine. I, however, like my meat. My favorite, probably really unhealthy, is the Texas Roadhouse 6oz sirloin. I am not going to force others to join my enjoyment of meat and I am not going to tell my sister that she is dumb (which I don't believe). I believe that people need to do what works and is best for them and their health and not judge others for it. I will continue to portion control my meat and when my sister comes over I will make sure to have an acceptable option for her because I love and support her.
Also, please pass the bacon,
LOLOLOL-loved this!0 -
I hear human is pretty gamey...we'd be safe eventually when tastier things were discovered. Did they eat humans on Star Trek????Absolutely regardless of what it was that was attacking humans, the second in this chain of quotes seems to insist that we can verbally convince another species that it's wrong to eat us. Quite simply, if another species evolved to be bigger, smarter, stronger and more deadly than humans then we'd fight to survive and either dwindle greatly in population or go extinct.
Not to mention that they wouldn't understand a word we said. Perhaps someone has been taking Star Trek a little too literally.
Depending on what country they are from the fat content of humans can be pretty high too. But I was referring to the universal translator and being able to verbally convince aliens not to eat us.0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
Heehee, picturing a brontosaurus with a flexistraw0 -
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?
Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
However, i'm not sure we can really be compared to any other animal due to how advanced our lives are. I'm not sure if other primates use tools, but no other animal goes as far as humans do in production, technology and engineering. Besides, we didn't need claws or strong jaws etc, as we were able to build tools to do the killing and breaking down of meat into managable chunks.0 -
B12 is also in nutritional yeast. In 1/4th cup there is 113% of daily value (based on 2000 cal diet though.)
I am a vegan but my husband and children are not. I absolutely will not buy them factory farmed meat though. I do buy them some pasture raised grass fed organic meat about 1-2 times a week and the 5-6 times they eat what I eat (I am the cook.)
I also buy them RAW organic grass fed pasture raised organic butter and milk (non-pasteurized.) It's expensive but worth it to not support any factory farms and make sure they aren't eating antibiotics and poorly treated animals that have bad feed.
I used to think hunting was barbaric but if you think about it, if you buy it off the shelf, it's much worse. The animal was fed crap and lived a horrible life from start to finish. At least with hunting, it lived a normal live until just one day it was shot in the head. If I had to go, I'd rather be minding my own business and get shot in the head than to be born into a terrible existence.
A few of my friends that have cancer have had to go vegan as part of their cancer treatment and that really made me think. After watching Forks Over Knives, reading The China Study, reading about Gerson therapy, and Jonathan Safran Foer's book Eating Animals (not judgmental) I knew it was right for me. It's only been since last July but I am down 28 pounds (2 more to goal) and I feel really good, better than I have in a long time. I do not eat soy though, I think a lot of vegans go soy crazy which is not good either (GMO if not 100% organic and the estrogen thing bothers me.) I do think cutting out meat changes you, not a superiority complex but if three times a day you have to make an effort to be creative and come up with a healthy kind meal, it makes you feel different on the inside, I can't really explain it but it makes you feel good and honestly, it does bother my conscience a little bit to even buy the "better" meat for my family BUT my choices don't have to be their choices. I will add that my husband is down about 20 pounds from eating vegan meals 4-5 times a week. I figure even just "cutting back" helps and I'm proud of him for putting forth that effort to at least cut back (and not whine about the prices I pay for the "humanely raised" meat for them the few times they eat it.)
Most of my friends eat a more Paleo type diet and a lot of them are conscious of where their meat comes from (and some even raise them themselves.) I can respect that even if those choices are different from mine.
I don't even have those pointy teeth. Neither does my son. My daughter and husband do. I tell them they are for cracking open pistachios. Ever get one of those half open ones?
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This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
I've never seen a deer sweat or sip it's water. What a load of nonsense, lol. Maybe it's just me, but I have a mix of grinding and sharp teeth.0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
I've never seen a deer sweat or sip it's water. What a load of nonsense, lol. Maybe it's just me, but I have a mix of grinding and sharp teeth.
I suppose the deer you've seen have claws as well.0 -
I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been covered, however there is no ultimate "ethical" position on this debate. If you are alive and eating food that you didn't carefully cultivate yourself, you are contributing to some kind of animal death, period, whether you are a vegan or a carnivore. Farming kills a large amount of small animals, whether through harvesting or pest prevention. The least it does is to displace animals so they have less area to live and feed in. The most you can do is cause less harm, and that is a difficult prospect to quantify. A grass-fed cow perhaps has 1000 calories per pound of edible meet, and at 400 lbs that would provide 400,000 calories of nourishment. Farming that amount of crops would cause far more deaths than 1 animal. I am not saying that eating that cow over other crops is more "moral", just that only eating fruits and vegetables does not make you a more ethical human being.0
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I am a little late to the party here....I was a vegan for years and am now an omnivore, but don't eat too many animal products. (meat/dairy in smaller portions).
1. I don't think that being a vegetarian or vegan is per se healthier than being an omnivore, and vice versa. It depends on what you eat. I have known very unhealthy vegetarians and very unhealthy carnivores.
2. Most people would be better off reducing their consumption of animal products, and it could have a tremendous effect on the environment. I think more people would be open to having a little less meat than being told that they are immoral, selfish, etc.
3. It is rude to comment on what other people are eating, particularly at the table. If anyone ever asked about my dietary choices as a vegetarian/vegan, I asked if we could discuss it later. I didn't want other people to feel that I was judging them for their eating choices. No one is perfect - certainly not me, who am I to judge?0 -
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?
Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.
You never did back up your serial killer claim.....0 -
B12 is also in nutritional yeast. In 1/4th cup there is 113% of daily value (based on 2000 cal diet though.)
I am a vegan but my husband and children are not. I absolutely will not buy them factory farmed meat though. I do buy them some pasture raised grass fed organic meat about 1-2 times a week and the 5-6 times they eat what I eat (I am the cook.)
I also buy them RAW organic grass fed pasture raised organic butter and milk (non-pasteurized.) It's expensive but worth it to not support any factory farms and make sure they aren't eating antibiotics and poorly treated animals that have bad feed.
I used to think hunting was barbaric but if you think about it, if you buy it off the shelf, it's much worse. The animal was fed crap and lived a horrible life from start to finish. At least with hunting, it lived a normal live until just one day it was shot in the head. If I had to go, I'd rather be minding my own business and get shot in the head than to be born into a terrible existence.
A few of my friends that have cancer have had to go vegan as part of their cancer treatment and that really made me think. After watching Forks Over Knives, reading The China Study, reading about Gerson therapy, and Jonathan Safran Foer's book Eating Animals (not judgmental) I knew it was right for me. It's only been since last July but I am down 28 pounds (2 more to goal) and I feel really good, better than I have in a long time. I do not eat soy though, I think a lot of vegans go soy crazy which is not good either (GMO if not 100% organic and the estrogen thing bothers me.) I do think cutting out meat changes you, not a superiority complex but if three times a day you have to make an effort to be creative and come up with a healthy kind meal, it makes you feel different on the inside, I can't really explain it but it makes you feel good and honestly, it does bother me conscience a little bit to even buy the "better" meat for my family BUT my choices don't have to be their choices. I will add that my husband is down about 20 pounds from eating vegan meals 4-5 times a week. I figure even just "cutting back" helps and I'm proud of him for putting forth that effort to at least cut back (and not whine about the prices I pay for the "humanely raised" meat for them the few times they eat it.)
Most of my friends eat a more Paleo type diet and a lot of them are conscious of where their meat comes from (and some even raise them themselves.) I can respect that even if those choices are different from mine.
For me, I feel good when I cut out the processed crap, like chocolate, biscuits, crisps, bread and things like that. I've always felt fine eating meat. It may be worth doing a week or two without meat to see how I feel (as I think this experience of wellbeing is individual). But I think i'd rather not live without meat.0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
But what attributes do humans share with omnivores?0 -
I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been covered, however there is no ultimate "ethical" position on this debate. If you are alive and eating food that you didn't carefully cultivate yourself, you are contributing to some kind of animal death, period, whether you are a vegan or a carnivore. Farming kills a large amount of small animals, whether through harvesting or pest prevention. The least it does is to displace animals so they have less area to live and feed in. The most you can do is cause less harm, and that is a difficult prospect to quantify. A grass-fed cow perhaps has 1000 calories per pound of edible meet, and at 400 lbs that would provide 400,000 calories of nourishment. Farming that amount of crops would cause far more deaths than 1 animal. I am not saying that eating that cow over other crops is more "moral", just that only eating fruits and vegetables does not make you a more ethical human being.
This sums it all up really. Because it's true that you can't have farming in todays world without animals coming to harm. Someone mentioned earlier that the best thing to do would be to give up on society and inhabit an island somewhere and completely fend for yourself.0 -
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.
I am going a bit out on a limb here on this issue of moral superiority to say some behaviors are more laudatory than others. Some examples: The volunteer fireman who risks his life to save people from disaster: Way better than me in assuming personal risk to help others and showing amazing civic responsibility. The teacher who devotes extra time after her school to struggling students: way better than me in caring for those who struggle acquiring new knowledge. The person who sits with a hospice patient and listens to their hard realities: way better than me in suspending her fear of death to help another person. Are these people 'better' than me? I think in those discrete ways they are.
I think this makes a good point. Morals are very dependent on the individual.
To take it a step forward, I personally believe a vegan diet is the most compassionate one around. It's not totally cruelty-free, but it aims to reduce animal suffering as much as possible. This is not saying that *I*, as a vegan, am more compassionate in other areas in my life (see above), or even the most compassionate person here, even if we could agree on how we could determine that. So please don't think vegans think they are *better* than other people, even if they believe they are doing the best they can by animals by eating plants.0 -
I've never seen a deer sweat or sip it's water. What a load of nonsense, lol. Maybe it's just me, but I have a mix of grinding and sharp teeth.
I wouldn't call it sipping but deer don't lap water etiher. They kind of suck it up, much like we would when drinking from a stream without hands.
It doesn't really matter what we have in common with other animals, does it? Obviously we can eat meat and be healthy. There has even been at least one study showing it's possible to get adequate nutrition from eating meat only (at least short term).0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
I've never seen a deer sweat or sip it's water. What a load of nonsense, lol. Maybe it's just me, but I have a mix of grinding and sharp teeth.
I suppose the deer you've seen have claws as well.
Koala Bear. Sloth. Panda. Claws are related to how you need to access your food source.0 -
I am a little late to the party here....I was a vegan for years and am now an omnivore, but don't eat too many animal products. (meat/dairy in smaller portions).
1. I don't think that being a vegetarian or vegan is per se healthier than being an omnivore, and vice versa. It depends on what you eat. I have known very unhealthy vegetarians and very unhealthy carnivores.
2. Most people would be better off reducing their consumption of animal products, and it could have a tremendous effect on the environment. I think more people would be open to having a little less meat than being told that they are immoral, selfish, etc.
3. It is rude to comment on what other people are eating, particularly at the table. If anyone ever asked about my dietary choices as a vegetarian/vegan, I asked if we could discuss it later. I didn't want other people to feel that I was judging them for their eating choices. No one is perfect - certainly not me, who am I to judge?
Exactly. Who needs a running commentary of their food choices all day? 'Having a chocolate bar are we? That's not exactly good for you.' 'I don't think you've got the right mix of vegetables there.' etc. etc.0 -
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?
Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.
You never did back up your serial killer claim.....
Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.0 -
Adolf Hitler.
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?
Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.
You never did back up your serial killer claim.....
Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.0 -
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?
Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.
You never did back up your serial killer claim.....
Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.
You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.0 -
I've been vegan for almost a year now, and can't imagine going back to meat or dairy. That said, I also made this choice for personal reasons and don't particularly care if others are vegan or not. When I'm asked about it (politely), I answer and have been happy to cook vegan meals for friends when they ask.
But I have gotten flack for it...often. I've been called weird, freak, and other names. When I first went vegan, I even had a sibling tell me I'd no longer be invited over for dinner because they always eat meat. Go figure.
Do I think reduced-meat/no-meat consumption is better for you? Yes. But I also think adults are capable of making their own choices.
BTW, an earlier post mentioned B12 only coming from meat. That's not correct. The B12 found in meat is because the animals consumed/were contaminated by B12. There are vegan sources for B12 and the body needs very small amounts.0 -
Elizabeth Bathory
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?
Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.
You never did back up your serial killer claim.....
Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.0 -
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.
I am going a bit out on a limb here on this issue of moral superiority to say some behaviors are more laudatory than others. Some examples: The volunteer fireman who risks his life to save people from disaster: Way better than me in assuming personal risk to help others and showing amazing civic responsibility. The teacher who devotes extra time after her school to struggling students: way better than me in caring for those who struggle acquiring new knowledge. The person who sits with a hospice patient and listens to their hard realities: way better than me in suspending her fear of death to help another person. Are these people 'better' than me? I think in those discrete ways they are.
I think this makes a good point. Morals are very dependent on the individual.
To take it a step forward, I personally believe a vegan diet is the most compassionate one around. It's not totally cruelty-free, but it aims to reduce animal suffering as much as possible. This is not saying that *I*, as a vegan, am more compassionate in other areas in my life (see above), or even the most compassionate person here, even if we could agree on how we could determine that. So please don't think vegans think they are *better* than other people, even if they think they have it going on in that area of their lives.
Not to worry. I've definitely seen on here that a LOT of vegans and vegetarians made their lifestyle food choices for their own reasons and not based on what they want everyone to be doing.
Although we never REALLY answered the main question of this thread. Which is 'Do we as humans benefit at all from eating meat or does it cause more health concerns than it does good?' I don't think we will know for another few decades...0
This discussion has been closed.
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