Opinions needed on muscle building while lowering body fat

mmapags

It helps with recovery it is argued. Many people equally argue that as long as the aminos and carbs etc are in your blood, it doesnt matter about specific timings.

Thats NOTHING to do with fat loss.

Doesn't change the 3000 calories is 3000 calories regardless of when you consume them statement but I would argue that your workout intensity or your high intensity cario session will be affacted by your meal timings

i.e. The person eating 4 or 5 meals a day is able to perform a high intensity session (high fat burn)
The starving hungry person who has 2 meals a day and has gone 16 hours since he has last eaten is only able to perform a low intensity worout (low fat burn)

So indirectly????

Fasted training, which is what you are describing and nutrient timing are 2 different things, although related. The example of training after a 16 hour fast is somewhat of an extreme. There are those that follow the Leangains protocol that do it though! There are a few assumptions in your last paragraph that I would respecfully challenge. The first is that a person who has 2 meals per day is "starving hungry". I follow a 16/8 intermittent fasting plan 5 days per week as loosely based on Leangains. I am never starving hungry. I get up in the morning on rest days and have nothing more than coffee and water until 11 or 12. My system has adjusted to this and I truly do not have hunger pangs. I take in my nutrition mid day and at dinner time and eat all the calories in my plan. I actually find it easier and have less complusive hunger than eating more often.

On workout days, the only difference is that I work out fasted at about the 12 hour point from my last meal and have a protein shake right after. It doesn't affect my intensity at all. So, I don't agree with the 2 assumptions in your statement. Only my expereince and not a study but I don't think what you are saying nessesarily follows. It might for some.

Wonderob

On workout days, the only difference is that I work out fasted at about the 12 hour point from my last meal and have a protein shake right after. It doesn't affect my intensity at all. So, I don't agree with the 2 assumptions in your statement. Only my expereince and not a study but I don't think what you are saying nessesarily follows. It might for some.
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Well they werent really assumptions because the person in the example was me! I WOULD be starving hungry if I hadn't eaten for 16 hours, and it would certainly affect the intensity of my workout; it would be an assumption to say that everyone would be starving hungry, but I'm aware that my eating habits are not that of most

mmapags

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On workout days, the only difference is that I work out fasted at about the 12 hour point from my last meal and have a protein shake right after. It doesn't affect my intensity at all. So, I don't agree with the 2 assumptions in your statement. Only my expereince and not a study but I don't think what you are saying nessesarily follows. It might for some.
[/quote]

Well they werent really assumptions because the person in the example was me! I WOULD be starving hungry if I hadn't eaten for 16 hours, and it would certainly affect the intensity of my workout; it would be an assumption to say that everyone would be starving hungry, but I'm aware that my eating habits are not that of most
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Ah, I see!! LOL Well it sounds as if you know what it takes for you.

Matt_Wild

The theory put forward here does make sense to me in terms of what is being said in terms of intensity and yes I guess if you can train harder in theory you could burn more fat. Could. However one must question how long it takes for someone to normalize to fasted training and then how different it may be, if at all.

crisanderson27

You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.

While I agree...I've kind of come to think of 'toning' as a generic word for neuromuscular adaptation.

*shrug*

WHAT are you toning?

You're not lol...I hate the word myself. But when people think they're building muscle on a deficit...and strength gains (neuromuscular adaptation) reinforce this in their brain...along with losing bodyfat for more defined muscles...the combination works out to 'toning'. They don't have the knowledge base to know what it really is...they just know they want more visible muscle, along with more strength. Glycogen storage plays its part in this too...but is often referred to as 'bulking' lol.

Its silly of course, but the toning part can certainly be applied without harm.

conwaytas

You can try carb cycling which tends to work really well for people that are under 15%bf.
http://www.leangains.com/
Have a read of it.

crisanderson27

You can try carb cycling which tends to work really well for people that are under 15%bf.
http://www.leangains.com/
Have a read of it.

Carb/calorie cycling...not just carb cycling.

But yes...it's definitely effective. For pure fat loss (even at large bodyfat %'s) it seems that ESE has been more effective in my experience...and a combination of the two even moreso.

Nataliaho

You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.

While I agree...I've kind of come to think of 'toning' as a generic word for neuromuscular adaptation.

*shrug*

WHAT are you toning?

You're not lol...I hate the word myself. But when people think they're building muscle on a deficit...and strength gains (neuromuscular adaptation) reinforce this in their brain...along with losing bodyfat for more defined muscles...the combination works out to 'toning'. They don't have the knowledge base to know what it really is...they just know they want more visible muscle, along with more strength. Glycogen storage plays its part in this too...but is often referred to as 'bulking' lol.

Its silly of course, but the toning part can certainly be applied without harm.

After reading a million of these threads, I have to agree. I think the term 'toning' is a necessary evil because otherwise we get statements like "you either build muscle or burn fat".. which is true, however sooooooo many people seem to take this to mean "no point in lifting weights if you still have fat to lose"... this couldn't be further from the truth. At least the term toning gives a third option...

The other thing that I think needs stressing is that even if you are in deficit and not technically building muscle you will continually be able to lift progressivly heavier stuff (unless you are already a pretty sh!thot lifter in which case you're not asking these questions!) So aside from the scientific stuff, you will get better form, better technique, more confidence with the weight... Seeing those improvements week in and week out is awesome for motivation, pride and confidence.

lindsy721

I was able to lose 5 pounds of fat AND put on 2.5 pounds of muscle in the same 4 week period. I did it on a 1700 calorie diet, staying away from junk food, lifting weights 4-5 days a week and doing cardio i think 3 times a week.

Sarauk2sf

I was able to lose 5 pounds of fat AND put on 2.5 pounds of muscle in the same 4 week period. I did it on a 1700 calorie diet, staying away from junk food, lifting weights 4-5 days a week and doing cardio i think 3 times a week.

Wow - how did you do that?

glennstoudt

go to fitradio.com and get your goal weight based on your desired BF percent.

glennstoudt

might be fit2fatradio.com, not sure.
but the calculators are really good

Sarauk2sf

The other thing that I think needs stressing is that even if you are in deficit and not technically building muscle you will continually be able to lift progressivly heavier stuff (unless you are already a pretty sh!thot lifter in which case you're not asking these questions!) So aside from the scientific stuff, you will get better form, better technique, more confidence with the weight... Seeing those improvements week in and week out is awesome for motivation, pride and confidence.

This is a very good point. Plus, you will get the muscles to show more, even if it is not new muscle and there is also my usual 'other' reason for lifting - improved bone density.

crisanderson27

The other thing that I think needs stressing is that even if you are in deficit and not technically building muscle you will continually be able to lift progressivly heavier stuff (unless you are already a pretty sh!thot lifter in which case you're not asking these questions!) So aside from the scientific stuff, you will get better form, better technique, more confidence with the weight... Seeing those improvements week in and week out is awesome for motivation, pride and confidence.

This is a very good point. Plus, you will get the muscles to show more, even if it is not new muscle and there is also my usual 'other' reason for lifting - improved bone density.

Just part of why I've come to love you both in my own little way!

Nataliaho

The other thing that I think needs stressing is that even if you are in deficit and not technically building muscle you will continually be able to lift progressivly heavier stuff (unless you are already a pretty sh!thot lifter in which case you're not asking these questions!) So aside from the scientific stuff, you will get better form, better technique, more confidence with the weight... Seeing those improvements week in and week out is awesome for motivation, pride and confidence.

This is a very good point. Plus, you will get the muscles to show more, even if it is not new muscle and there is also my usual 'other' reason for lifting - improved bone density.

Just part of why I've come to love you both in my own little way!

Awwwwwww! :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:

imchicbad

Thanks Rach. I should point out I'm a sponsored Gaspari Athlete and also act as a private prep coach. I'm not some random giving out random advice. Its my job.

I always recommend to the guys I prep (I currently have around 10 paying customers on my books) to cut fat first and lean bulk second. That way confidence improves as you feel lean and more muscled (even tho in reality you are just less fat) and when you bulk you are more anabolic and can register fat gain better as you put on muscle and retard calories as required.

what about a girl? do you have females you train? im in pretty good shape now i strength train 4 x a week with only 20 min of cardio= total work out about an 1 1/2 hours i have 4 different routins. i cant get my stomach to show the six pac, you can see a little definition but i need to see it. also my back needs to be more toned. legs and arms are beautiful and you can see the cuts, so can you help me with that question?

imchicbad

bump

Sarauk2sf

The other thing that I think needs stressing is that even if you are in deficit and not technically building muscle you will continually be able to lift progressivly heavier stuff (unless you are already a pretty sh!thot lifter in which case you're not asking these questions!) So aside from the scientific stuff, you will get better form, better technique, more confidence with the weight... Seeing those improvements week in and week out is awesome for motivation, pride and confidence.

This is a very good point. Plus, you will get the muscles to show more, even if it is not new muscle and there is also my usual 'other' reason for lifting - improved bone density.

Just part of why I've come to love you both in my own little way!

Awwwwwww! :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:

Ditto on the awwwwwww :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:

Matt_Wild

Thanks Rach. I should point out I'm a sponsored Gaspari Athlete and also act as a private prep coach. I'm not some random giving out random advice. Its my job.

I always recommend to the guys I prep (I currently have around 10 paying customers on my books) to cut fat first and lean bulk second. That way confidence improves as you feel lean and more muscled (even tho in reality you are just less fat) and when you bulk you are more anabolic and can register fat gain better as you put on muscle and retard calories as required.

what about a girl? do you have females you train? im in pretty good shape now i strength train 4 x a week with only 20 min of cardio= total work out about an 1 1/2 hours i have 4 different routins. i cant get my stomach to show the six pac, you can see a little definition but i need to see it. also my back needs to be more toned. legs and arms are beautiful and you can see the cuts, so can you help me with that question?

Hi - I do train women (got one to the NABBA Worlds in Italy last year... but I define the training (weights, cardio, diet etc). As I say I prep coach, not offer advice that may or may not be followed. Too intensive to only be partially listen to!

mmapags

Carb/calorie cycling...not just carb cycling.

But yes...it's definitely effective. For pure fat loss (even at large bodyfat %'s) it seems that ESE has been more effective in my experience...and a combination of the two even moreso.

Cris,

ESE=Eat, Stop, Eat?