Opinions needed on muscle building while lowering body fat

crisanderson27

Carb/calorie cycling...not just carb cycling.

But yes...it's definitely effective. For pure fat loss (even at large bodyfat %'s) it seems that ESE has been more effective in my experience...and a combination of the two even moreso.

Cris,

ESE=Eat, Stop, Eat?

Yes. Even Martin really only recommends leangains for those already lean. I think maybe your body having larger fat stores interferes with the efficiency of the hormonal triggers to build muscle....or cut fat.

ESE on the other hand has no muscle building component. The fasting directly targets fat stores while the growth hormone and adrenalin response protect lean mass. There may be more to it...I don't know...but I can speak for its effectiveness.

When I mentioned a mix being even more effective...I meant ESE 3x a week...and a 16/8 eating window 2-4 days a week. On the 16/8 days you eat at or near maintenance. The ESE days control your deficit.

LesterBlackstone

I wouldn't recommend ESE for athletes, or anyone who's already pretty lean, but if you have quite a bit to lose it's fine.

crisanderson27

I wouldn't recommend ESE for athletes, or anyone who's already pretty lean, but if you have quite a bit to lose it's fine.

I guess that depends on your definition of 'quite a bit'. I used it effectively to get to 15%ish last year. My job is very physically demanding as well...and if anything...I gained in performance.

LesterBlackstone

I wouldn't recommend ESE for athletes, or anyone who's already pretty lean, but if you have quite a bit to lose it's fine.

I guess that depends on your definition of 'quite a bit'. I used it effectively to get to 15%ish last year. My job is very physically demanding as well...and if anything...I gained in performance.

I should've specified "competitive" athletes, but like anything else YMMV (performance-wise).

As far as body comp is concerned, as long as you're over 15% or so it shouldn't be an issue. Once you get below that, I would be a bit concerned with insufficient protein on the off days. A modified version (ie PSMF on the "fasting" days) might work well.

charlesw47

create your deficit with exercise (more so super set weight lifting) and HIIT cardio...that will burn fat and build muscle...but u have to eat...if you create your deficit with through diet more so than exercise then u will waste away

crisanderson27

create your deficit with exercise (more so super set weight lifting) and HIIT cardio...that will burn fat and build muscle...but u have to eat...if you create your deficit with through diet more so than exercise then u will waste away

Which post was this in response to?

charlesw47

thread starter's post...i was dealing with the same issue and this seems to be working for me

crisanderson27

thread starter's post...i was dealing with the same issue and this seems to be working for me

Ahh...gotcha. I thought it may have been in response to my IF commentary. I exercise (heavy weight), and create my deficit via diet. I've maintained as much lean mass as I think is humanly possible.

I'm not convinced that you'll build muscle with your method...but otherwise...I'm glad its working for you.

crisanderson27

I wouldn't recommend ESE for athletes, or anyone who's already pretty lean, but if you have quite a bit to lose it's fine.

I guess that depends on your definition of 'quite a bit'. I used it effectively to get to 15%ish last year. My job is very physically demanding as well...and if anything...I gained in performance.

I should've specified "competitive" athletes, but like anything else YMMV (performance-wise).

As far as body comp is concerned, as long as you're over 15% or so it shouldn't be an issue. Once you get below that, I would be a bit concerned with insufficient protein on the off days. A modified version (ie PSMF on the "fasting" days) might work well.

I train on fasted days (3x a week), and get in a minimum of 100-150g of protein on those days, within my 1000-1500cal target window. On off/rest days, I get my full 150-170g of protein.

Matt_Wild

Guys, which pathways are you suggestion being in negative calories allows muscle to be built?

LesterBlackstone

Guys, which pathways are you suggestion being in negative calories allows muscle to be built?

My guess is the Yellow Brick Road.

Matt_Wild

Guys, which pathways are you suggestion being in negative calories allows muscle to be built?

My guess is the Yellow Brick Road.

I'm genuinely interested. I've been doing some more reading, so would like to see how they reckon it works?

crisanderson27

Guys, which pathways are you suggestion being in negative calories allows muscle to be built?

My guess is the Yellow Brick Road.

I'm genuinely interested. I've been doing some more reading, so would like to see how they reckon it works?

The only method that I've seen...and it's 'cheating'...is leangains and its derivatives.

Understand however, I've never full on run through leangains myself. I can only look at those using it who are eating at maintenance or a slight deficit (as determined by process of elimination, not a calculator), yet still put on muscle mass, while remaining lean, or becoming even more lean.

jfan175

Guys, which pathways are you suggestion being in negative calories allows muscle to be built?

Alan Aragon's "culking" method.....I've not read his book, but I've seen Leangains compared to it as a slow, laborious method to lose fat and gain muscle. I do know it involves calorie and carb cycling. I don't think it involves IF, as he's spoken out against that in the past.

harpercutie

im in the same predicament but this morning i had an epiphany! i think im going to eat a surplus of protein enriched foods while workingout and building uscle everyday for 2 weeks. then the next to weeks i still eat protein foods but in a muccccch lower caloric intake. and during these 2 weeks you dont have to workout becaause after going a few days of the low calories/high protein fast, your body goes into a fat burning stage called ketosis. ill try it out and let you know how it goes

crisanderson27

im in the same predicament but this morning i had an epiphany! i think im going to eat a surplus of protein enriched foods while workingout and building uscle everyday for 2 weeks. then the next to weeks i still eat protein foods but in a muccccch lower caloric intake. and during these 2 weeks you dont have to workout becaause after going a few days of the low calories/high protein fast, your body goes into a fat burning stage called ketosis. ill try it out and let you know how it goes

A couple things here...

I believe ketosis has more to do with carb intake than caloric intake.

Also...if you want ot maintain your lean mass, you do indeed still have to work out

:flowerforyou:

Matt_Wild

Guys, which pathways are you suggestion being in negative calories allows muscle to be built?

Alan Aragon's "culking" method.....I've not read his book, but I've seen Leangains compared to it as a slow, laborious method to lose fat and gain muscle. I do know it involves calorie and carb cycling. I don't think it involves IF, as he's spoken out against that in the past.

TBH the methods I see only seem to result in lean but stringy looking people.

I'm genuinly not sure how much muscle if any is added, hence I want to understand how when you get down to the protein synthesis level of mTOR - for nutrient/energy/redox sensor and controlling protein synthesis. The activity of this complex is stimulated by insulin, growth factors, serum, phosphatidic acid, amino acids (particularly leucine), and oxidative stress.

Basically, I'm not sure how one can stimulate the body to grow without the relevant factors in place.