Vegetarianism. Seriously? (A Debate)

VegesaurusRex

Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.

Or omnivores, depending on whether you believe in them exisiting or not.

Name some omnivores.

yourenotmine

Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.

Or omnivores, depending on whether you believe in them exisiting or not.

Name some omnivores.

Bears.

ironanimal

Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.

Or omnivores, depending on whether you believe in them exisiting or not.

Name some omnivores.

Going round in circles I feel. Agree to disagree, no? If I must;
Bears
Coati (including aardvarks )
Hedgehogs
Opossums
Pigs
Primates including Chimpanzees and Humans
Raccoons
Rodents, including Chipmunks, Mice, Rats and Squirrels
Skunks
Sloths
Canines including Wolves, Dingoes and Coyotes
Cassowarys
Chickens
Crows
Turtles
Piranhas
Thousands of invertebrate species

VegesaurusRex

Omnivores are so designated because of their location and dietary options, not because of their physiology. So-called omnivores can be included on the chart I gave above. Actually, I excluded them because I was anticipating your response:


Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Omnivore: Reduced
Human: Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore: Angle not expanded
Herbivore: Expanded angle
Omnivore: Angle not expanded
Human: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore: Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Human: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore: Temporalis
Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore: Temporalis
Human: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore: Large
Herbivore: Small
Omnivore: Large
Human: Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore: Short and pointed
Herbivore: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore: Short and pointed
Human: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Human: Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore: Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore: None; swallows food whole
Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore: No digestive enzymes
Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach
Carnivore: Simple
Herbivore: Simple or multiple chambers
Omnivore: Simple
Human: Simple

\Stomach Acidity
Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Omnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Human: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity
Carnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Omnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Human: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length
Omnivore: 4 to 6 times body length
Human: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore: Long, complex; may be sacculated
Omnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Human: Long, sacculated

Liver
Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Omnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidneys
Carnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore: Moderately concentrated urine
Omnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Human: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Omnivore: Sharp claws
Human: Flattened nails

gchutson

Apparently, crushing your attempt to prove that "yours is really as big as mine" was either overlooked or misunderstood.

I'll type more slowly this time...

I come back to this board periodically, and I just noticed two things with this post:

Yes. We noticed. Because you're desperately insecure and suffering from the worst case of eLittleMan Syndrome, ever. Buckle-in Cupcake, this is going to sting a bit.

1. The dude who started this string seems upset that someone (me) said he was on steroids, and

I'm not hurt anymore than if you would have called me an octopus or the moon. Your statement was an inane, irrelevant retort that made absolutely no sense, nor had any basis in reality... other than the fact that I appear quite "large" in my picutre... of which you clearly took note.

Does someone need a wittle hug in my big, strong arms?

Rather than establish a statement that supported your viewpoint, you levied an emotional response along the lines of, "Yeah well... you're a great-big doodie-head, and I'm rubber...and..and you're glue."

Case in point... In the same paragraph, you "hypothesized" I use steroids, you additionally explained that I was going to soon die of heart disease. And that was the crux of your "vegetarianism is nifty" argument.

Wow. Ya got me.

I'm sorry Peaches, but no one in the audience was fooled, nor impressed by your "argument." Including those that actually support your "argument." If those on "your side" don't even support you, there not much call to take you seriously, is there...

But hold-on Muffincake, I'm not quite finished with you.

2. The same dude seems to be claiming to be an attorney.

It's fairly easy to prove or "carry burden" as we say. There's a piece of paper on the wall behind me.

As for number 1, this dude, showing a photo of six or seven vegans and their car, claimed that he was "bigger than everyone in that photo plus the car." After that statement he gets upset when someone says he's on steroids?

Clearly, you've never seen me "upset." You are an adorable wee, tiny lil man though. Feisty. Like a puppy.

Hello! Are you bigger than a car and several people without steroids?

Yes.

Then you better change your diet, Dude.

Hmm. Maybe I should join a fitness website, and discuss other diets that I don't understand. Let's see how that turns out.

As for number 2, I have never seen an attorney argue this poorly.

Obviously, you've never been to a courthouse, anywhere, ever.

If you are an attorney, you are certainly not here to argue or debate, and I think your comments about wanting to actually learn about vegetarianism are disingenuous.

I don't know. I seem to be crushing your wee lil plea for attention, just fine.

As I said, there are hundreds or even thousands of studies that show, among other things that vegetarians are healthier than meat eaters, vegetarians are smarter than meat eaters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6180753.stm), vegetarians are wealthier than meat eaters (okay this one could be chicken and the egg - do weathier people become vegetarians?

And as I said multiple times, anyone can quote studies, statistics, other websites, facts, figures and anecdotal data. That's not an argument. That's "hearsay." They taught us stuff like that in law school.

Or do vegetarians become wealthier people), vegetarians have lower incidence of chronic diseases such as heart disease or cancer then non-vegetarians, and, well, my favorite, vegetarians are satisfied with themselves in terms of ethics, karma and ecology. This latter attribute is considered by meat-eaters to be a "superior attitude." Okay, I guess it is, but why does it bother you so much?

Another reason I'm not debating you specifically, is because I question your competency and mental status. The statement above would stand as specific evidence to the effect. Being that I never said anything about any of the issues nor statements that you referenced in that statement, at any time, ever, I don't think you're of sound mind and body.

Perhaps it's the lack of protein. Or possibly testosterone.

Anyway, this is a false debate.

Yeah. I actually posted that three (3) times. Go read. Come back smarter.

It is all opinion and anecdotal information.

Do you actually read the things you post?

We had several real debates on this subject (see, e.g., http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/609763-meat-eating-vs-vegan-debate) where we quoted studies and debated the relative merits of the studies.

Yet, you keep desperately vying for my attention. Weird.

Counselor, is this any way to put on a case?

Nope. This is how I post in a discussion forum pursuant the Community Guidelines, documented below.

Where is your expert witness? Where is your in rem jurisdiction? Your arguments seem pretty quasi in rem to me!

Well, first... you need to stop Googling "legal terms," in a feeble attempt to look intelligent. You're not. Everyone reading this has long since summed you up. Just stop.

Second, your sentence above is almost as inane and asinine as you telling someone you don't know, have never met and know absolutely nothing about that they are "taking steroids" and "about to die from heart failure."

You see Poohbear, you're what scientists like to call "an idiot." You've spent several hours on this thread, reading and posturing a feeble effort to argue the values of vegetarianism, based solely on the following pivotal, key elements:

- I'm a big meanie-head
- I look like I take steroids
- I'm going to soon die of heart failure
- Big meatheads can't be lawyers
- And three (3) links to other websites you think are neato

I've enjoyed this.

Now, stay down. It will hurt less.

VegesaurusRex

Anatomically and physiologically, people are herbivores.

Or omnivores, depending on whether you believe in them exisiting or not.

Name some omnivores.

Going round in circles I feel. Agree to disagree, no? If I must;
Bears
Coati (including aardvarks )
Hedgehogs
Opossums
Pigs
Primates including Chimpanzees and Humans
Raccoons
Rodents, including Chipmunks, Mice, Rats and Squirrels
Skunks
Sloths
Canines including Wolves, Dingoes and Coyotes
Cassowarys
Chickens
Crows
Turtles
Piranhas
Thousands of invertebrate species

Okay, let's take Bears. Do you know what order they belong to? CARNIVORA. As I said, carnivores can eat veggies, and in fact most bears survive on berries and other plants, but they are physiologically carnivores. Just as physiologically, humans are herbivores.

order Carnivora - cats; lions; tigers; panthers; dogs; wolves; jackals; bears; raccoons; skunks; and members of the suborder Pinnipedia

Carnivora

Eutheria, subclass Eutheria - all mammals except monotremes and marsupials
carnivore - a terrestrial or aquatic flesh-eating mammal; "terrestrial carnivores have four or five clawed digits on each limb"
Pinnipedia, suborder Pinnipedia - seals; sea lions; walruses
Canidae, family Canidae - dogs; wolves; jackals; foxes
family Hyaenidae, Hyaenidae - hyenas
family Felidae, Felidae - cats; wildcats; lions; leopards; cheetahs; saber-toothed tigers
family Ursidae, Ursidae - bears and extinct related forms
family Viverridae, family Viverrinae, Viverridae, Viverrinae - genets; civets; mongooses
family Mustelidae, Mustelidae - weasels; polecats; ferrets; minks; fishers; otters; badgers; skunks; wolverines; martens
family Procyonidae, Procyonidae - raccoons; coatis; cacomistles; kinkajous; and pandas

yourenotmine

I've been a vegetarian since my teens. I think it is the KINDEST way to feed myself. I simply see no reason to make food choices which require someone to kill animals for me, if I can live well on plant-based food. After these many years, I see no point in debating this lifestyle. Live and let live.

I've been eating this way since 1973--going on 40 years. I am in prime health at age 57. Whether this is attributable to my veg*n diet, I simply can't tell you, but I doubt it has hurt me any. I don't debate the health advantages of a plant-based diet, since most of the research is epidemiological, and I think it isn't proof, per se, that one diet is superior to another. I do believe eating a rainbow of plant foods is a good thing, and I encourage anyone willing to listen to me to do so.

Veg*n food options keep getting better all the time, and I am thankful for that.

This is one meat-eater that will beat up anyone that ever makes you sad. Promise.

Now I want to hug you both.

yourenotmine

Okay, let's take Bears. Do you know what order they belong to? CARNIVORA. As I said, carnivores can eat veggies, and in fact most bears survive on berries and other plants, but they are physiologically carnivores. Just as physiologically, humans are herbivores.

order Carnivora - cats; lions; tigers; panthers; dogs; wolves; jackals; bears; raccoons; skunks; and members of the suborder Pinnipedia

Carnivora

Eutheria, subclass Eutheria - all mammals except monotremes and marsupials
carnivore - a terrestrial or aquatic flesh-eating mammal; "terrestrial carnivores have four or five clawed digits on each limb"
Pinnipedia, suborder Pinnipedia - seals; sea lions; walruses
Canidae, family Canidae - dogs; wolves; jackals; foxes
family Hyaenidae, Hyaenidae - hyenas
family Felidae, Felidae - cats; wildcats; lions; leopards; cheetahs; saber-toothed tigers
family Ursidae, Ursidae - bears and extinct related forms
family Viverridae, family Viverrinae, Viverridae, Viverrinae - genets; civets; mongooses
family Mustelidae, Mustelidae - weasels; polecats; ferrets; minks; fishers; otters; badgers; skunks; wolverines; martens
family Procyonidae, Procyonidae - raccoons; coatis; cacomistles; kinkajous; and pandas

well, you didn't ask what scientific order they belong to... we were having a dietary and physiological discussion, I thought... Bears have both well developed canine teeth (for flesh) and grinding molars (for vegetation). The inside of their mouth does not look like an obligate carnivore's (such as a cat).

kimmie0627

I enjoy going out killing my meat. And after that I go out and kill my fruits and veggies.

gchutson

I've been a vegetarian since my teens. I think it is the KINDEST way to feed myself. I simply see no reason to make food choices which require someone to kill animals for me, if I can live well on plant-based food. After these many years, I see no point in debating this lifestyle. Live and let live.

I've been eating this way since 1973--going on 40 years. I am in prime health at age 57. Whether this is attributable to my veg*n diet, I simply can't tell you, but I doubt it has hurt me any. I don't debate the health advantages of a plant-based diet, since most of the research is epidemiological, and I think it isn't proof, per se, that one diet is superior to another. I do believe eating a rainbow of plant foods is a good thing, and I encourage anyone willing to listen to me to do so.

Veg*n food options keep getting better all the time, and I am thankful for that.

This is one meat-eater that will beat up anyone that ever makes you sad. Promise.

Now I want to hug you both.

Seriously. She is the nicest woman I think I have ever disagreed with... I just wanna mow her grass and take her flowers.

gchutson

I enjoy going out killing my meat. And after that I go out and kill my fruits and veggies.

Those poor, poor fruits.

Rhea30

Neither! Just an omnivore

ironanimal

Neither! Just an omnivore

Don't you get it? Omnivores don't exist!

lovelysummerbabe2012

I'm a vegetarian. I just don't like meat and I feel gross when I used to find VAINS in my steak and..It just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Make's me kind of sick to my stomach

junejadesky

I also eat meat with meat sprinkled on top! I have to read more of this debate because there are so many view points.

ChaseAlder

I like to wrap my meat in bacon. And then I put a huge salad on the side and eat that, too, with a joyful look of glee on my face. I'm not just a carnivore... I'm an all-ivore.

gchutson

I like to wrap my meat in bacon. And then I put a huge salad on the side and eat that, too, with a joyful look of glee on my face. I'm not just a carnivore... I'm an all-ivore.

If it were legal, I would marry bacon.

yourenotmine

You see Poohbear, you're what scientists like to call "an idiot." You've spent several hours on this thread, reading and posturing a feeble effort to argue the values of vegetarianism, based solely on the following pivotal, key elements:

- I'm a big meanie-head
- I look like I take steroids
- I'm going to soon die of heart failure
- Big meatheads can't be lawyers
- And three (3) links to other websites you think are neato

I've enjoyed this.

Now, stay down. It will hurt less.

Oooh, I like you when you're all feisty. Cute.

kazzari

They stopped using lard decades ago. Sad really, as nutritionally, lard is actually very high in monounsaturated fat, and medium chain triglycerides, the healthy stuff people are spending crazy amounts of money on coconut oil for. :laugh:

I believe it was you who pointed this out to me in a recent thread. It was very exciting news. I went out that day and bought a lb. of bacon, read the label with glee and "pigged" out. From now on I'm using lard to make my pie crusts. Thank you for that!

tweakz20

This is not an opinion topic. Humans were not made to eat meat and it causes a variety of health issues such as obesity, high cholesterol, diabetes, and strokes, heart attacks, and pulmonary embolisms go along with those conditions. Those are the leading causes of death and debilitating diseases. I'm not going to explain my position to someone that's not open minded, it's easier talking to a wall. Meat is causing the health care industry millions. Do your own research instead of posting on here like an *kitten* making vegetarian jokes.