Vegetarianism. Seriously? (A Debate)

wild_wild_life

OP, after reading through this thread you seem like a pretty reasonable and personable guy, just to get that out of the way. I'll also include the obligatory "I'm not one of those BAD EVIL PUSHY type vegans who wants EVERYONE TO BE JUST LIKE THEM", because it's true. I'm really not. But I'm also not going to pretend that this is just a "to each their own" kind of issue like a lot of people in the thread are, because I don't really think it is for most people who sincerely take the time to try to think about and answer it.

I think when it comes down to it and all joking aside, most people subscribe at least generally to the notion that we as individuals shouldn't be the cause of unnecessary harm in the world. We just don't like to think of the things we personally like to do as causing harm or as unnecessary.

The basic ethical argument is that just because we might /like/ to dominate fellow animals that are capable of thinking and suffering (though for the most part obviously not approaching humans' degree of rationality or self-awareness), kill them, and use their bodies to make food, clothing, cell phone cases, etc doesn't mean we /ought/ to, especially in a first world country in the 21st century where we don't /need/ to. We need to use living things for at least some of those purposes, sure, but we live in a time and place where we can choose plant or mineral based materials made from things that are demonstrably incapable of thinking or suffering in the way that animals are.

It does seem plausible to say that at some point in the past and/or in some parts of the world having meat and dairy in one's diet might be a nutritional necessity for humans because of geographical limitations, resource scarcity, limited knowledge about nutrition, etc, but I would guess that it has never been the case for a single person posting in this thread for as long as they've lived. It can be legitimately hard to internalize after a lifetime of having animal-eating reinforced by everything and everyone around you, but just because we've evolved this far as omnivores doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't individually adjust our "natural" behaviors for cultural or ethical reasons. There are many "natural" parts of our evolutionary heritage that we have found reason to broadly reject as unacceptable: genocide, rape, people as property, cannibalism, random aggression, theft, and kicking puppies, just to name a few.

And, by the way, that antibiotic-laced, ammonia-cleaned, and growth-hormone-engineered machine-shaped frozen burger patty, cut from from a test-tube-bred cow fed via conveyer belt with genetically modified corn husks, on a refined white bread bun made with hydrogenated oil and sweetened with high fructose corn syrup, sitting next to fries made from a potato that is legally regulated as a pesticide? Not exactly "natural" either.

Without the nature/necessity argument, it seems that the only remaining reasons to eat meat are (1) social convention and/or habit dictate that we should (i.e. it's more convenient for us in our specific time and place) and (2) because we enjoy the taste (though for most people it seems like just not eating meat for awhile makes the thought of doing so pretty repellant). Both of those frankly seem like pretty shaky reasons when weighed against the killing and/or suffering of literally billions of animals, shady meat and dairy industry practices, heart disease, colon and prostate cancer, etc.

Just my two cents, you know, since you asked.

I think you won the debate. Excellent post.

Flixie00

I haven't eaten meat for c20 years, but I do eat fish and wear leather shoes. Reason for not eating meat is that I don't like it, but I have no problem cooking it for other people.

I have had criticism from both meat eaters and vegans in the past as they seem to have an issue with my choice. I don't see my choice as being any different from my saying, for example, that I don't like mustard (I do), only that statement does not seem to rile people quite so much (although some smart a*se will no doubt prove me wrong).

VegesaurusRex

Wow, this is still going on! I left three hours ago to do some shopping and now my wife has joint the debate, if that is what you want to call it. Hello, Dear. I just went with JM to Gentlemen's Wearhouse to suit him up. He's all set for Oral Argument now. How is Iowa?

littlebluej

I like meat but I do go vegetarian for about 6 months or more at a time. It all depends on my body. Once the weather gets warmer/hot I seem to naturally eat more "vegetarian" fare without even thinking about it. It's just lighter when it's so hot outside.

Otherwise I will go vegetarian for medical reasons, and even vegan in the past. My digestive system just goes crazy sometimes and I get to the point where I cannot digest meat anymore. Like I actually begin to vomit up whatever meat I had just eaten an hour or so before, completely undigested. It's not from food poisoning or whatever. My body just can't process it. Once this happens a few times, I decide to go meat-free (although I'll still eat eggs) just to give my body a rest.

To be honest, when I go out to eat, I will rarely order meat. And I don't bring any home unless I'm cooking for my boyfriend.

Kristan_Forsey

Ever since a bad bout of food poisoning from a donair (gyro) that included a hospital visit I have not enjoyed meat but simply ate it because my husband does and it was in the freezer. I recently decided I no longer am eating meat, because why would I eat something that I don't like? Even though it was a taste based decision I still got crap for it. If other people don't like something they don't eat it, how is this any different? It isn't. I can get my protein from other sources, one of which includes protein shakes. Still love my dairy though

Lipstickcherry

Does anybody think about cheese and milk...how much fat is hidden in them?
Whole milk is 49% fat. Cheddar cheese is 74% fat.
Casein makes up 80% of milk. It is a protein that is a powerful histamine that creates a lot of mucus.
I myself find my sinuses cleared up a lot when I gave it up. Plus I am lactose intolerant.
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.1996.tb04639.x/abstract
Cow's milk is allowed to have feces in it. Source...some biased article I found on the net, wait, just kidding, CDC source
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html#hurt

To be fair, they burn the *bleep* out of it, so the **** in it won't harm you.

PS: posting this from the CDC article to cut to the chase:
Milk Production
How does milk get contaminated?
Milk contamination may occur from:

Cow feces coming into direct contact with the milk
Infection of the cow's udder (mastitis)
Cow diseases (e.g., bovine tuberculosis)
Bacteria that live on the skin of cows
Environment (e.g., feces, dirt, processing equipment)
Insects, rodents, and other animal vectors
Humans, for example, by cross-contamination from soiled clothing and boots
Pasteurization is the only way to kill many of the bacteria in milk that can make people very sick

MoreBean13

Does anybody think about cheese and milk...how much fat is hidden in them?
Whole milk is 49% fat. Cheddar cheese is 74% fat.
Casein makes up 80% of milk. It is a protein that is a powerful histamine that creates a lot of mucus.
I myself find my sinuses cleared up a lot when I gave it up. Plus I am lactose intolerant.
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.1996.tb04639.x/abstract
Cow's milk is allowed to have feces in it. Source...some biased article I found on the net, wait, just kidding, CDC source
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html#hurt

To be fair, they burn the *bleep* out of it, so the **** in it won't harm you.

I don't think anyone is confused by fat being in cheddar cheese or whole milk- I'm confused by you thinking it's a bad thing though. Dietary fat is great, and saturated fat is welcome in my diet. In fact, I intentionally add it in the form of coconut oil because my vegetarian diet otherwise would not have enough fat in it!

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MoreBean13

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I easily get over 130g of protein with no protein powder as long as I pay attention to what I am eating. It's really not that hard. It is my understanding that all micronutients needed by the body can be obtained from a vegetarian diet, but if worried all you need to do is take little itty bitty multi-vitamin.

all it takes is a mutlivitamin???? Wow....really??? Come on now. I work in a hospital. Did you know that when a vegan has surgery, we all groan. Why? because they take twice as long to heal. Even the ones that follow the diet carefully, and take "itty bitty multi vitamins" have this issue. If you don't eat meat for moral reasons that is yoru choice, but please.....it is not biologically prudent for human beings, who are natural omnivores, to eat vegan.

Many people take multivitamins for the extra insurance, so why so adversarial?

I also 'worked in a hospital' for over 20 years. Your comment about vegans not healing well after surgery is a new one to me. Also, my experience in hospitals makes me wonder what you do which gives you knowledge of surgical follow-up, since most of that happens in outpatient settings. Are you a surgeon who has hospital OR privileges, who also does post-op follow-up in her office. How do you know vegans take twice as long to heal? I am not challenging you. I'm curious, since my hospital career exposed me to acute care and not follow-up.

I am a nurse in a small hospital on the medical/surgical ward. When a vegan comes in and has surgery and is admmitted, their incisions take much longer to heal. Slow closing wounds are much more succeptable to infection. They not only have longer hospital stays..but are more likely to have to be readmitted later for post op complications.

We had one woman last year who was a uber healthy fit vegan. Her c-section incision took a YEAR to heal. She was hosopitalized twice after the initial surgery for infection (she went septic at one point). The nutritionist kept telling her to eat some meat...even some chicken or eggs..didn't have to be a steak or a burger, but this patient insisted that she could get her essential amino's from other sources.

This is just ONE example. WE see it with most vegans. Vegetarians who eat dairy and eggs and such typically do NOT have these issues.

This happened with my mom's breast reconstruction after a mastectomy- took a year to heal and she had all kinds of complications. She is not a vegan or vegetarian of any kind. Complications happen.

Also, after reading your previous comments about slow healing vegans, I talked to my dad about it, who is conveniently a cardio-thorasic surgeon and he said there is no complication risk for vegans or vegetarians above the general population for surgery, unless that person has anemia or some other condition that would predispose them to complications. Vegans are somewhat more likely to be anemic if they have poor diets, so I can sort of see how you could back yourself in to that argument.

ETA: My dad is also a meat-and-potatoes type eater, he's not a vegetarian pusher of any kind.

noirnatural

I'm not judging, but I just don't get it.

Anyone care to debate the benefits / drawbacks of vegetarianism VS yummy, yummy meat with me?

To quantify my position, I'm on the side of meat. All meat. I eat meat, with meat sprinkled on it. I am not emotionally swayed by eating meat. In fact, I prefer to know the name, birthday and religion of the cow, before I eat it. (Joking, calm down. But, my side of the debate is now clearly established.)

Now, before we begin, please know that I'm uneducated, shy, small and frail. So, please be gentle.

I can't debate with you...I just don't like the taste of meat. I lost the taste for it after I saw films in one of my classes and just was turned off, that was in 2005 and I have not eaten meat since then.:ohwell:

Sarauk2sf

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I easily get over 130g of protein with no protein powder as long as I pay attention to what I am eating. It's really not that hard. It is my understanding that all micronutients needed by the body can be obtained from a vegetarian diet, but if worried all you need to do is take little itty bitty multi-vitamin.

all it takes is a mutlivitamin???? Wow....really??? Come on now. I work in a hospital. Did you know that when a vegan has surgery, we all groan. Why? because they take twice as long to heal. Even the ones that follow the diet carefully, and take "itty bitty multi vitamins" have this issue. If you don't eat meat for moral reasons that is yoru choice, but please.....it is not biologically prudent for human beings, who are natural omnivores, to eat vegan.

Many people take multivitamins for the extra insurance, so why so adversarial?

I also 'worked in a hospital' for over 20 years. Your comment about vegans not healing well after surgery is a new one to me. Also, my experience in hospitals makes me wonder what you do which gives you knowledge of surgical follow-up, since most of that happens in outpatient settings. Are you a surgeon who has hospital OR privileges, who also does post-op follow-up in her office. How do you know vegans take twice as long to heal? I am not challenging you. I'm curious, since my hospital career exposed me to acute care and not follow-up.

I am a nurse in a small hospital on the medical/surgical ward. When a vegan comes in and has surgery and is admmitted, their incisions take much longer to heal. Slow closing wounds are much more succeptable to infection. They not only have longer hospital stays..but are more likely to have to be readmitted later for post op complications.

We had one woman last year who was a uber healthy fit vegan. Her c-section incision took a YEAR to heal. She was hosopitalized twice after the initial surgery for infection (she went septic at one point). The nutritionist kept telling her to eat some meat...even some chicken or eggs..didn't have to be a steak or a burger, but this patient insisted that she could get her essential amino's from other sources.

This is just ONE example. WE see it with most vegans. Vegetarians who eat dairy and eggs and such typically do NOT have these issues.

So your rude response to my post with the 'wow....really?' comments was totally off base because I specifically metioned vegetarians NOT vegans - which you now say typically do NOT have these issues.

Apology accepted.

Sarauk2sf

Does anybody think about cheese and milk...how much fat is hidden in them?
Whole milk is 49% fat. Cheddar cheese is 74% fat.
Casein makes up 80% of milk. It is a protein that is a powerful histamine that creates a lot of mucus.
I myself find my sinuses cleared up a lot when I gave it up. Plus I am lactose intolerant.
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.1996.tb04639.x/abstract
Cow's milk is allowed to have feces in it. Source...some biased article I found on the net, wait, just kidding, CDC source
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html#hurt

To be fair, they burn the *bleep* out of it, so the **** in it won't harm you.

I don't think anyone is confused by fat being in cheddar cheese or whole milk- I'm confused by you thinking it's a bad thing though. Dietary fat is great, and saturated fat is welcome in my diet. In fact, I intentionally add it in the form of coconut oil because my vegetarian diet otherwise would not have enough fat in it!

I track mine using this site, and I am sure many other people track macros also so I doubt it is a surprise that dairy can be relatively high in fat.

QuestForFitness

I love meat...especially my husband's. He is really great in the kitchen.

Really. F'n really? I mean... seriously. Really?

My thoughts exactly.

QuestForFitness

OP- I think I heard the paleo people next door talking about how they feel left out and want to "debate" (read defend) their diet, too.

Awesome. What the hell is "paleo?"

Love this thread it's so educational - no need for word of the day toilet paper (had to look up paleo too)

Oh man, invite me when THAT debate starts.

Patriots4Life

Meat For the win!

kymillion

I thought you might have gotten yourself booted for a few days there....

I'm on the meat side....salad's great...but salad is what FOOD eats....

I'm getting better at adding in more veggies, but only to complement the juicy deer steak.....

Not booted, though I'm quite sure the moderators have a dartboard with my face and/or crotch on it.

I'm not anti-veggie at all. Raw broccoli is arguably the yummiest thing since... well... sliced bread. Though I'm fairly sure broccoli came first.

OOOohhhhh I could go there.. I could. ....


but I wont.

VegesaurusRex

Question for you - out of all the posts where vegetarians have very politely and eloquently discussed their reasons for being vegetarian, with only a handful of 'meat is murder' type posts and a few actually debating the issue (politely), why the statement that many vegetarians are angry and defensive?

I skipped over this one... on Page 8 alone, one Veggie questioned my competency as an attorney. And another one explained that I take steroids, and would likely die soon of heart failure.

Bless you. Are you referring to me here? Because if so, in my post on page 8, I was questioning your capacity to engage in reasoned argument. I have no knowledge of your competence to practice law, and indeed, did not mention your legal competence at all. It was you who shoved that into the conversation, though its relevance to the topic at hand is beyond me. (I assume you were making some kind of 'appeal to authority' plea?)

You do seem very tangential.

Hmm. I do like turtles.

I come back to this board periodically, and I just noticed two things with this post:

1. The dude who started this string seems upset that someone (me) said he was on steroids, and

2. The same dude seems to be claiming to be an attorney.

As for number 1, this dude, showing a photo of six or seven vegans and their car, claimed that he was "bigger than everyone in that photo plus the car." After that statement he gets upset when someone says he's on steroids? Hello! Are you bigger than a car and several people without steroids? Then you better change your diet, Dude.

As for number 2, I have never seen an attorney argue this poorly. If you are an attorney, you are certainly not here to argue or debate, and I think your comments about wanting to actually learn about vegetarianism are disingenuous. As I said, there are hundreds or even thousands of studies that show, among other things that vegetarians are healthier than meat eaters, vegetarians are smarter than meat eaters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6180753.stm), vegetarians are wealthier than meat eaters (okay this one could be chicken and the egg - do weathier people become vegetarians? Or do vegetarians become wealthier people), vegetarians have lower incidence of chronic diseases such as heart disease or cancer then non-vegetarians, and, well, my favorite, vegetarians are satisfied with themselves in terms of ethics, karma and ecology. This latter attribute is considered by meat-eaters to be a "superior attitude." Okay, I guess it is, but why does it bother you so much?

Anyway, this is a false debate. It is all opinion and anecdotal information. We had several real debates on this subject (see, e.g., http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/609763-meat-eating-vs-vegan-debate) where we quoted studies and debated the relative merits of the studies.

Counselor, is this any way to put on a case? Where is your expert witness? Where is your in rem jurisdiction? Your arguments seem pretty quasi in rem to me!

aoikirin

If you overeat animal flesh the animals will have the last word. Heart disease, cholesterol, high blood pressure. Enjoy them. ;-0 Karma can be such a

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shamr0ck

Look in the mirror? See those pointy, sharp little teeth at the sides of your mouth? Those are designed for ripping and tearing animal flesh.

Yum, meat.

Biggipooh

Lol the cavemen didn't have any protein powder. I guess we developed pretty good.

porffor

I'm not going to commit the time to reading all the posts, but will say I'm veggie, because meat makes me want to throw up.. no other reason. If you are gagging at the taste or texture of something then your body obviously doesn't need it.

As for my teeth I've had no side effects from not ripping meat apart and my molars grind veggies just as well as meat or fish.

The bonus for animals is a bonus and one that means I can feel good about that, but my hubby and kids all eat meat - their choice. They are never forced to, nor stopped from eating meat. I do insist they are aware of where the meat comes from and have stood in the street by some half pigs hanging off a lorry before now so my middle daughter could actually 'see' what was in her sausages, not to horrify her, just to educate her.

VegesaurusRex

If you overeat animal flesh the animals will have the last word. Heart disease, cholesterol, high blood pressure. Enjoy them. ;-0 Karma can be such a

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Yup, karma's a witch. You kill the cow, the cow kills you. You might want to mention that studies have shown that the maximum safe amount of meat to eat each week is 70 grams per week. That's one and a half quarter pounders every two weeks.

Enjoy, you red blooded red meat eaters!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1360609/Red-meat-DOES-increase-risk-bowel-cancer-If-eat-3-ham-slices-day.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2116252/Red-meat-Its-food-die-As-grisly-new-report-says-eating-beef-healthier-drinking-arsenic-MAX-HASTINGS-reaches-defiantly-steak-knives.html

VegesaurusRex

Look in the mirror? See those pointy, sharp little teeth at the sides of your mouth? Those are designed for ripping and tearing animal flesh.

Yum, meat.

Is this what you see when you look in the mirror?

http://free-extras.com/images/tiger_teeth-210.htm

ironanimal

Look in the mirror? See those pointy, sharp little teeth at the sides of your mouth? Those are designed for ripping and tearing animal flesh.

Yum, meat.

Is this what you see when you look in the mirror?

http://free-extras.com/images/tiger_teeth-210.htm

That's a carnivore, not an omnivore. Derp.
Meet Mr. Omnivore...

carriempls

I generally don't mention being vegetarian to anyone unless it becomes necessary because so often the person I'm telling will go on and on in their defense of eating meat. In the grand scheme of things, sure, I wish people ate a lot less meat for all kinds of reasons but on an individual level I don't care what you eat. I've made my choices, you make yours.

All that said, my reasons are probably all already detailed here in this long *kitten* thread that I haven't read through. If you google "reasons to go vegetarian" I'm sure it's all there too. It's an ethical thing for me from so many angles (environmental, suffering, factory farming, and so on) and I also believe it's better for me nutritionally.

One thing I will say about meat eaters that I don't understand is the arbitrary nature of which animals are chosen to be eaten and which ones appall you. Why is eating a cow or chicken different than eating a horse or a cat? That's one thing I simply can't wrap my head around. Ah well.

eric198

While I have no problem with the folks that want to be vegetarian, vegan, etc., and I do think eating large portions of fruit, veggies, nuts, beans, etc. is extremely beneficial... meat is still a highly desirable part of the human diet. I do try and limit my portions to keep calories in check each day. But, honestly, I sometimes get "meat hungry" and nothing else will suffice. Fire up the grill!

Bob314159

When I was young I ate meat all the time, I'm sure many times for 3 meals a day

When I was around 25 I cut back and was a vegetarian for almost a year. Now I like meat a lot, but only eat 2 or 3 meals with meat a week, I find it tastes good, but its too heavy on me.

ironanimal

One thing I will say about meat eaters that I don't understand is the arbitrary nature of which animals are chosen to be eaten and which ones appall you. Why is eating a cow or chicken different than eating a horse or a cat? That's one thing I simply can't wrap my head around. Ah well.

That's more a culturual and/or practical thing. There isn't much meat on a cat and they have been bred as companions rather than as food. In the case of the horse, it is eaten in some countries, including France. They also eat snails and frog legs so I don't really trust their judgement, however.

rainydaze613

I generally don't mention being vegetarian to anyone unless it becomes necessary because so often the person I'm telling will go on and on in their defense of eating meat. In the grand scheme of things, sure, I wish people ate a lot less meat for all kinds of reasons but on an individual level I don't care what you eat. I've made my choices, you make yours.

All that said, my reasons are probably all already detailed here in this long *kitten* thread that I haven't read through. If you google "reasons to go vegetarian" I'm sure it's all there too. It's an ethical thing for me from so many angles (environmental, suffering, factory farming, and so on) and I also believe it's better for me nutritionally.

One thing I will say about meat eaters that I don't understand is the arbitrary nature of which animals are chosen to be eaten and which ones appall you. Why is eating a cow or chicken different than eating a horse or a cat? That's one thing I simply can't wrap my head around. Ah well.

Agree x100!

I think lots people, especially in western societies, are mentally disconnected from their food. If they eat meat, they should know the true extent of what they are doing, and that's fine. I just can't stand the ones who say they won't eat lobster because it looks like one or something, but they will gladly devour whole chickens in the form of chicken nuggets. They're really choosing the wrong reasons to be "disgusted".