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MyFitnessPal Community

Vegetarianism. Seriously? (A Debate)

gchutson

I'm not judging, but I just don't get it.

Anyone care to debate the benefits / drawbacks of vegetarianism VS yummy, yummy meat with me?

To quantify my position, I'm on the side of meat. All meat. I eat meat, with meat sprinkled on it. I am not emotionally swayed by eating meat. In fact, I prefer to know the name, birthday and religion of the cow, before I eat it. (Joking, calm down. But, my side of the debate is now clearly established.)

Now, before we begin, please know that I'm uneducated, shy, small and frail. So, please be gentle.

Replies

VegesaurusRex

She's so light, she actually floats.

I weigh more than all of these people put together. Including the car.

Haha did you really just imply that these people are a) unhealthy and b) unhealthy because they're not has heavy as you are? Since when does being heavier mean you're healthier?

No. I implied that they are thin, tiny little people. Mostly because they are thin, tiny little people.

And THIN is of course very bad?

gchutson

I weigh more than all of these people put together. Including the car.

Yup, I believe that. Coronary occlusion waiting to happen.

Yeah. If only I were healthier and in better shape.

Yeah, you will sure make a fine looking corpse. There is a difference between being steroidally muscle bound and being healthy. Why don't you post an xray of your arteries.

Because that would be creepy, and weird, even if you had a real name and an actual picture, obscure, anonymous Internet guy.

However, let's analyze your profound, articulate argument, shall we?

I eat meat, and do not understand vegetarianism, therefore I am taking steroids, and I am about to die of heart disease.

Which hurts more... The fact that I just destroyed your silly little post? Or the fact that you're not computer savvy enough to go back and delete what you said?

Next.

sho3girl

And she's been raw vegan/fruitarian for many years now:

I wear that exact same tube-top to the gym.

wouldn't have thought red was your colour

BTW would love this girls arms...

gchutson

She's so light, she actually floats.

I weigh more than all of these people put together. Including the car.

Haha did you really just imply that these people are a) unhealthy and b) unhealthy because they're not has heavy as you are? Since when does being heavier mean you're healthier?

No. I implied that they are thin, tiny little people. Mostly because they are thin, tiny little people.

And THIN is of course very bad?

No, but the psychology associated with your deduction of same, is very, very telling.

VegesaurusRex

I weigh more than all of these people put together. Including the car.

Yup, I believe that. Coronary occlusion waiting to happen.

Yeah. If only I were healthier and in better shape.

Yeah, you will sure make a fine looking corpse. There is a difference between being steroidally muscle bound and being healthy. Why don't you post an xray of your arteries.

Because that would be creepy, and weird, even if you had a real name and an actual picture, obscure, anonymous Internet guy.

However, let's analyze your profound, articulate argument, shall we?

I eat meat, and do not understand vegetarianism, therefore I am taking steroids, and I am about to die of heart disease.

Which hurts more... The fact that I just destroyed your silly little post? Or the fact that you're not computer savvy enough to go back and delete what you said?

Next.

You do flatter yourself my friend. If you really want to understand vegetariansim, please go to any one of the probably dozens of archived debates at this site, for example

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/609217-meat-eating-vs-vegan-debate

I think that one went 20 pages, and then was continued in another 20 pager. I must have cited at least two dozen studies in that debate. If you are serious about wanting to understand vegetarianism and how to be healthy read some of the studies. In case you are not aware, studies are considerably more probative than opinions. It may be fun to argue opinions, but it is a waste of time when there is solid scientific evidence.

gchutson

I weigh more than all of these people put together. Including the car.

Yup, I believe that. Coronary occlusion waiting to happen.

Yeah. If only I were healthier and in better shape.

Yeah, you will sure make a fine looking corpse. There is a difference between being steroidally muscle bound and being healthy. Why don't you post an xray of your arteries.

Because that would be creepy, and weird, even if you had a real name and an actual picture, obscure, anonymous Internet guy.

However, let's analyze your profound, articulate argument, shall we?

I eat meat, and do not understand vegetarianism, therefore I am taking steroids, and I am about to die of heart disease.

Which hurts more... The fact that I just destroyed your silly little post? Or the fact that you're not computer savvy enough to go back and delete what you said?

Next.

You do flatter yourself my friend. If you really want to understand vegetariansim, please go to any one of the probably dozens of archived debates at this site, for example

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/609217-meat-eating-vs-vegan-debate

I think that one went 20 pages, and then was continued in another 20 pager. I must have cited at least two dozen studies in that debate. If you are serious about wanting to understand vegetarianism and how to be healthy read some of the studies. In case you are not aware, studies are considerably more probative than opinions. It may be fun to argue opinions, but it is a waste of time when there is solid scientific evidence.

Ah, we found something on which to agree. We had a moment just now. Did you feel it?

MrsBully4

I'm not a big debater but I really like this essay on the ethics of meat-eating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/magazine/the-ethicist-contest-winner-give-thanks-for-meat.html?_r=1

Also, professional wrestler Daniel Bryan is a vegan and he's pretty smokin'.

VegesaurusRex

I weigh more than all of these people put together. Including the car.

Yup, I believe that. Coronary occlusion waiting to happen.

Yeah. If only I were healthier and in better shape.

Yeah, you will sure make a fine looking corpse. There is a difference between being steroidally muscle bound and being healthy. Why don't you post an xray of your arteries.

Because that would be creepy, and weird, even if you had a real name and an actual picture, obscure, anonymous Internet guy.

However, let's analyze your profound, articulate argument, shall we?

I eat meat, and do not understand vegetarianism, therefore I am taking steroids, and I am about to die of heart disease.

Which hurts more... The fact that I just destroyed your silly little post? Or the fact that you're not computer savvy enough to go back and delete what you said?

Next.

You do flatter yourself my friend. If you really want to understand vegetariansim, please go to any one of the probably dozens of archived debates at this site, for example

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/609217-meat-eating-vs-vegan-debate

I think that one went 20 pages, and then was continued in another 20 pager. I must have cited at least two dozen studies in that debate. If you are serious about wanting to understand vegetarianism and how to be healthy read some of the studies. In case you are not aware, studies are considerably more probative than opinions. It may be fun to argue opinions, but it is a waste of time when there is solid scientific evidence.

Ah, we found something on which to agree. We had a moment just now. Did you feel it?

Ah, no. I can't see we agree on anything.

VegesaurusRex

I'm not a big debater but I really like this essay on the ethics of meat-eating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/magazine/the-ethicist-contest-winner-give-thanks-for-meat.html?_r=1

Also, professional wrestler Daniel Bryan is a vegan and he's pretty smokin'.

I know several vegans who entered that contest incognito. I don't know if the winner was an undercover vegan as well.

Laces_0ut

i cant imagine not eating animal protein. not having sashimi would send me into a depression. and lets not even think about a nice rare steak.

meerkat70

For those concerned, be assured, I'm perfectly 'calm'.

To the OP, when you ask for a debate, it's typical to lay down the terms of your argument - that's how debate happens. One person outlines an argument, the other person lays down theirs, and evidence and rational development of those arguments proceeds...

Your basic premise remains obscure. If there's something beyond 'Meat: I like it' in your original premise, I might be able to offer some counterpoint. But it's hard to actually debate on the point of what tingles someone else's tastebuds

Sadly, I agree with you completely. However, by clearly establishing an "actual debate" pursuant your aforementioned construct, this thread would have been shutdown within approximately 5 minutes.

Trust me on this.

Thus, I opened with a lighthearted "discussion point / counter-point" protocol in an effort to get people talking.

As for the education in procedure, I am quite familiar. They taught us all the good stuff in law school.

Not very effectively.

xHelloQuincyx

i love both, but if you offered me a burger or a morning star tomato basil mozzarella 'burger' i would choose morning star.
i was a vegetarian for four years back in highschool, but i ended up eating orange chicken at a buffet *my favorite foooooood*
i puked after i ate it, wasnt used to that processed crap. my whole family never really eats meat, so when i lived with my parents we were always eating alturnatives. my oldest brother has been a vegetarian for as long as i can remember. im kinda glad i was raised like that, i remember eating sprouts as a snack and thinking it was the best thing everrrr.
steak, beef jerky, and chicken are the only meats i really eat. and thats maybe twice a week if that. i dont find anything else appealing.

PShep17

Each to there own really. I used to be a veggie, mostly for the 'cruelty to animals reason'. I was young (11) and was making a statement I suppose. Started my McDonald's embargo at the same time. I lasted about 4 years, and even now only eat chicken and fish. No reason for avoiding red meat other than the fact I don't really fancy it now!

gchutson

For those concerned, be assured, I'm perfectly 'calm'.

To the OP, when you ask for a debate, it's typical to lay down the terms of your argument - that's how debate happens. One person outlines an argument, the other person lays down theirs, and evidence and rational development of those arguments proceeds...

Your basic premise remains obscure. If there's something beyond 'Meat: I like it' in your original premise, I might be able to offer some counterpoint. But it's hard to actually debate on the point of what tingles someone else's tastebuds

Sadly, I agree with you completely. However, by clearly establishing an "actual debate" pursuant your aforementioned construct, this thread would have been shutdown within approximately 5 minutes.

Trust me on this.

Thus, I opened with a lighthearted "discussion point / counter-point" protocol in an effort to get people talking.

As for the education in procedure, I am quite familiar. They taught us all the good stuff in law school.

Not very effectively.

Don't be bitter.

wrevhn

Each to there own really. I used to be a veggie, mostly for the 'cruelty to animals reason'. I was young (11) and was making a statement I suppose. Started my McDonald's embargo at the same time. I lasted about 4 years, and even now only eat chicken and fish. No reason for avoiding red meat other than the fact I don't really fancy it now!

:drinker:

Yes, to each their own.

Well this "debate" was a funsy. :laugh:

nothing but love to all.:flowerforyou:

gchutson

Ok... so, question.

If being vegetarian / vegan makes you "happier and healthier," why are so many vegetarians angry and defensive?

(I said "many," not "all.")

starla5881

Chicken isn't vegan???

But for real, I love meat. I've given it up for extended periods, and I felt awful. So, I eat it and enjoy it, although I try to get a good percentage of my cals from plant sources.

tabulator32

I want to be able to float!

I'll go back to veganism if I can achieve the floating over the beach thing!

letsgiveup

OP, after reading through this thread you seem like a pretty reasonable and personable guy, just to get that out of the way. I'll also include the obligatory "I'm not one of those BAD EVIL PUSHY type vegans who wants EVERYONE TO BE JUST LIKE THEM", because it's true. I'm really not. But I'm also not going to pretend that this is just a "to each their own" kind of issue like a lot of people in the thread are, because I don't really think it is for most people who sincerely take the time to try to think about and answer it.

I think when it comes down to it and all joking aside, most people subscribe at least generally to the notion that we as individuals shouldn't be the cause of unnecessary harm in the world. We just don't like to think of the things we personally like to do as causing harm or as unnecessary.

The basic ethical argument is that just because we might /like/ to dominate fellow animals that are capable of thinking and suffering (though for the most part obviously not approaching humans' degree of rationality or self-awareness), kill them, and use their bodies to make food, clothing, cell phone cases, etc doesn't mean we /ought/ to, especially in a first world country in the 21st century where we don't /need/ to. We need to use living things for at least some of those purposes, sure, but we live in a time and place where we can choose plant or mineral based materials made from things that are demonstrably incapable of thinking or suffering in the way that animals are.

It does seem plausible to say that at some point in the past and/or in some parts of the world having meat and dairy in one's diet might be a nutritional necessity for humans because of geographical limitations, resource scarcity, limited knowledge about nutrition, etc, but I would guess that it has never been the case for a single person posting in this thread for as long as they've lived. It can be legitimately hard to internalize after a lifetime of having animal-eating reinforced by everything and everyone around you, but just because we've evolved this far as omnivores doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't individually adjust our "natural" behaviors for cultural or ethical reasons. There are many "natural" parts of our evolutionary heritage that we have found reason to broadly reject as unacceptable: genocide, rape, people as property, cannibalism, random aggression, theft, and kicking puppies, just to name a few.

And, by the way, that antibiotic-laced, ammonia-cleaned, and growth-hormone-engineered machine-shaped frozen burger patty, cut from from a test-tube-bred cow fed via conveyer belt with genetically modified corn husks, on a refined white bread bun made with hydrogenated oil and sweetened with high fructose corn syrup, sitting next to fries made from a potato that is legally regulated as a pesticide? Not exactly "natural" either.

Without the nature/necessity argument, it seems that the only remaining reasons to eat meat are (1) social convention and/or habit dictate that we should (i.e. it's more convenient for us in our specific time and place) and (2) because we enjoy the taste (though for most people it seems like just not eating meat for awhile makes the thought of doing so pretty repellant). Both of those frankly seem like pretty shaky reasons when weighed against the killing and/or suffering of literally billions of animals, shady meat and dairy industry practices, heart disease, colon and prostate cancer, etc.

Just my two cents, you know, since you asked.

MrsBully4

I think a lot of vegetarians tend to be defensive because for whatever reason non-vegetarians try to upset vegetarians for kicks. I was a vegetarian for 6 years and I got a lot of flak for it. I personally don't give a crap if someone eats meat, but it's really irritating to have people come up to you and start stuffing food in their face while groaning "MMMMM MEATTTTT THE MURDER TASTES SO GOOODDODDDD" while chewing with their mouth open. I don't think that what I eat or do not eat is anyone else's concern, so to have people going out of their way in childish attempts to upset me or make me bawl over hamburgers or whatever they thought I was going to do pissed me off big time.

I'm currently an omnivore and again I do not care what people eat or do not eat, it's just offensive when you happen to casually mention that you're a vegetarian or vegan and people respond by attacking you. It does tend to make you prickly.

Edit: Not saying that you, OP, or any other meat-eaters on MFP are like this! It was just my experience that when I was a vegetarian people would go out of their way to try to upset me for not eating meat. I equate it to rubbing ice cream bars all over your face in front of a lactose intolerant person. It was bizarre and aggravating.

gchutson

OP, after reading through this thread you seem like a pretty reasonable and personable guy, just to get that out of the way. I'll also include the obligatory "I'm not one of those BAD EVIL PUSHY type vegans who wants EVERYONE TO BE JUST LIKE THEM", because it's true. I'm really not. But I'm also not going to pretend that this is just a "to each their own" kind of issue like a lot of people in the thread are, because I don't really think it is for most people who sincerely take the time to try to think about and answer it.

I think when it comes down to it and all joking aside, most people subscribe at least generally to the notion that we as individuals shouldn't be the cause of unnecessary harm in the world. We just don't like to think of the things we personally like to do as causing harm or as unnecessary.

The basic ethical argument is that just because we might /like/ to dominate fellow animals that are capable of thinking and suffering (though for the most part obviously not approaching humans' degree of rationality or self-awareness), kill them, and use their bodies to make food, clothing, cell phone cases, etc doesn't mean we /ought/ to, especially in a first world country in the 21st century where we don't /need/ to. We need to use living things for at least some of those purposes, sure, but we live in a time and place where we can choose plant or mineral based materials made from things that are demonstrably incapable of thinking or suffering in the way that animals are.

It does seem plausible to say that at some point in the past and/or in some parts of the world having meat and dairy in one's diet might be a nutritional necessity for humans because of geographical limitations, resource scarcity, limited knowledge about nutrition, etc, but I would guess that it has never been the case for a single person posting in this thread for as long as they've lived. It can be legitimately hard to internalize after a lifetime of having animal-eating reinforced by everything and everyone around you, but just because we've evolved this far as omnivores doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't individually adjust our "natural" behaviors for cultural or ethical reasons. There are many "natural" parts of our evolutionary heritage that we have found reason to broadly reject as unacceptable: genocide, rape, people as property, cannibalism, random aggression, theft, and kicking puppies, just to name a few.

And, by the way, that antibiotic-laced, ammonia-cleaned, and growth-hormone-engineered machine-shaped frozen burger patty, cut from from a test-tube-bred cow fed via conveyer belt with genetically modified corn husks, on a refined white bread bun made with hydrogenated oil and sweetened with high fructose corn syrup, sitting next to fries made from a potato that is legally regulated as a pesticide? Not exactly "natural" either.

Without the nature/necessity argument, it seems that the only remaining reasons to eat meat are (1) social convention and/or habit dictate that we should (i.e. it's more convenient for us in our specific time and place) and (2) because we enjoy the taste (though for most people it seems like just not eating meat for awhile makes the thought of doing so pretty repellant). Both of those frankly seem like pretty shaky reasons when weighed against the killing and/or suffering of literally billions of animals, shady meat and dairy industry practices, heart disease, colon and prostate cancer, etc.

Just my two cents, you know, since you asked.

THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR!!!!!! Nicely posted.

Laces_0ut

so when the day comes that its economical to grow cows, chickens etc.. without brains that will take away the ethical reasons right? since they wont think/feel pain.

gchutson

so when the day comes that its economical to grow cows, chickens etc.. without brains that will take away the ethical reasons right? since they wont think/feel pain.

We've been doing that with Democrats for years. KIDDING... JUST KIDDING. haha.

MrsBully4

Laces, a lot of non-meat-eaters avoid meat because of human rights concerns about the meatpacking industry. It's not wholly about the treatment of the animals.

Laces_0ut

Laces, a lot of non-meat-eaters avoid meat because of human rights concerns about the meatpacking industry. It's not wholly about the treatment of the animals.

yikes...if you are worried about the packaging/processing that would eliminate most veg and fruit companies too right?

unknown

This content has been removed.

Sarauk2sf

Ok... so, question.

If being vegetarian / vegan makes you "happier and healthier," why are so many vegetarians angry and defensive?

(I said "many," not "all.")

Question for you - out of all the posts where vegetarians have very politely and eloquently discussed their reasons for being vegetarian, with only a handful of 'meat is murder' type posts and a few actually debating the issue (politely), why the statement that many vegetarians are angry and defensive?

Or, are you basing it on your experiences outside of this thread? if so, tt might, just might have something to do with peoples reactions when someone is starting a 'debate' with the premise of "Anyone care to debate the benefits / drawbacks of vegetarianism VS yummy, yummy meat with me?"

Sarauk2sf

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I easily get over 130g of protein with no protein powder as long as I pay attention to what I am eating. It's really not that hard. It is my understanding that all micronutients needed by the body can be obtained from a vegetarian diet, but if worried all you need to do is take little itty bitty multi-vitamin.

all it takes is a mutlivitamin???? Wow....really??? Come on now. I work in a hospital. Did you know that when a vegan has surgery, we all groan. Why? because they take twice as long to heal. Even the ones that follow the diet carefully, and take "itty bitty multi vitamins" have this issue. If you don't eat meat for moral reasons that is yoru choice, but please.....it is not biologically prudent for human beings, who are natural omnivores, to eat vegan.

Please read the post - I was talking about vegetarians.

ETA: please tell me the deficiencies that wil be experienced by a vegetarian, outside those that can also be experienced by a meat-eater

gchutson

Ok... so, question.

If being vegetarian / vegan makes you "happier and healthier," why are so many vegetarians angry and defensive?

(I said "many," not "all.")

Question for you - out of all the posts where vegetarians have very politely and eloquently discussed their reasons for being vegetarian, with only a handful of 'meat is murder' type posts and a few actually debating the issue (politely), why the statement that many vegetarians are angry and defensive?

Or, are you basing it on your experiences outside of this thread? if so, tt might, just might have something to do with peoples reactions when someone is starting a 'debate' with the premise of "Anyone care to debate the benefits / drawbacks of vegetarianism VS yummy, yummy meat with me?"

Mostly, it's just me being a big meanie-head.

gchutson

Question for you - out of all the posts where vegetarians have very politely and eloquently discussed their reasons for being vegetarian, with only a handful of 'meat is murder' type posts and a few actually debating the issue (politely), why the statement that many vegetarians are angry and defensive?

I skipped over this one... on Page 8 alone, one Veggie questioned my competency as an attorney. And another one explained that I take steroids, and would likely die soon of heart failure.