Pay a speeding ticket based on your income?

ninerbuff

Being danish this topic got my attention:)

I would like to give you the "danish" way of looking at it. Not to change your minds or anything, but to offer you a perspective from across the ocean:p

When we set up a law for trafic it has a purpose. That purpose it to make sure that most people stay safe in trafic. Less traffic kills/accidents and so on. So we look at the law from two perspectives, one is to fine people when they commited a crime, and the other is to make sure that they don't do in the first place.

If you should prevent accidents due to speeding and stuff you need to hit people where it counts, aka. their wallet. For some people a small fine would mean nothing and therefore it would be hard to prevent accidents. And come on if people really don't want to pay a fine, then don't comite the crime, it's that easy.

So we don't see it as punishing people, since they can just stop speeding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate if I look at the numbers it looks like Dk and the states have pretty similar numbers, so my conclusion must be that a country has to do what works. In Dk a differential system works.

See it works? The point was is to STOP people from speeding, not PICK OUT people's incomes. Hitting the wallet gets peoples attention.

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ninerbuff

If someone commits a violation or crime the fine and punishment should be the same, not matter what their social class is. I wish people would get over the wealthy envy.

So how is it a person that can afford a traffic lawyer get a lower fine or dismissal altogether for the same infraction that some who can't afford a lawyer, but ends up having to pay fair?
Like I mentioned before, stick around traffic court for a couple of days and you'll see it happen.

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MissTattoo

I bet most of the people complaining are American.

chrishgt4

People saying it is wealth envy are clearly missing the point.

Punishments are meant to be equal - that is never going to be the case with a fine. If I get caught speeding, that's £60 which I can't afford - and I don't mean it hurts a bit - I mean overdraft limit blown, therefore fees from that - vicious cycle. Then points on the licence mean insurance goes up for years - making it prohibitively expensive for me to drive, meaning I can't get to work.

That's quite a big punishment compared to what £60 to someone on a large income means, where It could be the equivalent of me buying a newspaper.

That's an imbalanced punishment. One guy carries on as normal, one has his life screwed up.

Kara_xxx

and in the UK, everyone who is on job seekers allowance will have theirs paid for them and a kiss on the cheek :grumble:

Indeed. If we're talking about deterrents it's the fold that I guess in America are referred to as 'deadbeats' for whom nothing is a deterrent.

In the UK if you're on benefits you get such ridiculously small fines, and they are effectively other tax payers money anyway even IF they bother to pay them, which most of the time they dont. The court enforcement costs on these wasters way exceed the pitifully small fine they got in the first place. And when they keep going back to court someone wags a finger and says you must pay and nothing happens. Eventually, because most of them are repeat offenders, they get it all written off and might do a couple of hours of litter picking... which they don't turn up for because they'll present a sick note because they're receiving disability living allwance for alcoholism etc etc and so the story goes on.

And with these people we're not just talking legal drivers who are a bit above the speed limit, we're talking about people who have never had a licence in the first place, drive dangerous vehicles that are unserviced and have never had an MOT, are not taxed and therefore UNINSURED. It's these people we should go after in a major way!!

But the poor *kitten* busting a gut getting someone for a meeting, feeding his own family, trying to make something of himself, accidentally flies through a speed camera... he gets a fine 3x as high? Does not strike me as fair.

Kara_xxx

See it works? The point was is to STOP people from speeding, not PICK OUT people's incomes. Hitting the wallet gets peoples attention.

It only gets the attention of those where there is something in the wallet, and from the hours I've spent in court those are a small proportion of the courts driving offences workload.

Kara_xxx

And please don't start me on Scadinavian criminal justice systems.

Maybe we should send our murderers and sex offenders to those idyllic farm prisons they have in Norway! :huh:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/world/europe/norway-prison-bastoy-nicest/index.html

LiftBigtoGetFit

People saying it is wealth envy are clearly missing the point.

Punishments are meant to be equal - that is never going to be the case with a fine. If I get caught speeding, that's £60 which I can't afford - and I don't mean it hurts a bit - I mean overdraft limit blown, therefore fees from that - vicious cycle. Then points on the licence mean insurance goes up for years - making it prohibitively expensive for me to drive, meaning I can't get to work.

That's quite a big punishment compared to what £60 to someone on a large income means, where It could be the equivalent of me buying a newspaper.

That's an imbalanced punishment. One guy carries on as normal, one has his life screwed up.

so then make sure you don't speed... Like I told my son who is getting close to driving age when he saw me going around 5 or so miles over speed limit. I can afford to pay the ticket so I take my chance, you cannot afford to pay a ticket so you better not take the chance. Making someone pay more for the same offense is offensive.

SurfinBird1981

If you don't want to pay a fine or think that the fines are unfair just don't speed....

sirihermine

And please don't start me on Scadinavian criminal justice systems.

Maybe we should send our murderers and sex offenders to those idyllic farm prisons they have in Norway! :huh:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/world/europe/norway-prison-bastoy-nicest/index.html

As a norwegian social worker in prison I say maybe you should. Or at least consider getting your own prisons based on rehabilitation. Most inmates will get out of prison at some point (unless on a literal life sentece or death sentence, which we have neither of in Norway). Who would you rather meet in a dark alley, or have moving in to your neighboorhoud? The inmate that has gone thorugh rehabilitation in an humane prison and given a chance to get a job and safe housing, or the inmate that has rotted 30 years in an overcrowded prison with gangs, violence and drugs and with no focus on actually changing his ways?

I know who I would want living next to me...

(Btw, Norwegian re-offending rates vary between 16 and 18%. How many % of american inmates go back to prison after being released?)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/276754_16_Re-Offending_Rate-_Norways_

chrishgt4

People saying it is wealth envy are clearly missing the point.

Punishments are meant to be equal - that is never going to be the case with a fine. If I get caught speeding, that's £60 which I can't afford - and I don't mean it hurts a bit - I mean overdraft limit blown, therefore fees from that - vicious cycle. Then points on the licence mean insurance goes up for years - making it prohibitively expensive for me to drive, meaning I can't get to work.

That's quite a big punishment compared to what £60 to someone on a large income means, where It could be the equivalent of me buying a newspaper.

That's an imbalanced punishment. One guy carries on as normal, one has his life screwed up.

so then make sure you don't speed... Like I told my son who is getting close to driving age when he saw me going around 5 or so miles over speed limit. I can afford to pay the ticket so I take my chance, you cannot afford to pay a ticket so you better not take the chance. Making someone pay more for the same offense is offensive.

Again, missing the point- The law is not there to be broken if you can afford it. It is meant to stop people. You have just proven the point above by saying that you can afford to break the law.

As a point, do you complain that you pay more tax?

tomdVT

It's just more money grubbing from a bunch of spendaholics.

AHatFullOfSky

Being danish this topic got my attention:)

I would like to give you the "danish" way of looking at it. Not to change your minds or anything, but to offer you a perspective from across the ocean:p

When we set up a law for trafic it has a purpose. That purpose it to make sure that most people stay safe in trafic. Less traffic kills/accidents and so on. So we look at the law from two perspectives, one is to fine people when they commited a crime, and the other is to make sure that they don't do in the first place.

If you should prevent accidents due to speeding and stuff you need to hit people where it counts, aka. their wallet. For some people a small fine would mean nothing and therefore it would be hard to prevent accidents. And come on if people really don't want to pay a fine, then don't comite the crime, it's that easy.

So we don't see it as punishing people, since they can just stop speeding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate if I look at the numbers it looks like Dk and the states have pretty similar numbers, so my conclusion must be that a country has to do what works. In Dk a differential system works.

See it works? The point was is to STOP people from speeding, not PICK OUT people's incomes. Hitting the wallet gets peoples attention.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Actually that is not completely true. We do not differentiate speed tickets according to peoples income in Denmark. Well only the other way around. Fx being a student you can get a discount

The size of the fine depends fx on the degree of speeding in relation to the speed limit in the area/type of road.

unsuspectingfish

I completely disagree. Punishing people for being successful is a ridiculous concept.

I suppose that means you define "success" by the amount of money you make.

You assume incorrectly. Success can be measured in many ways. Money is just one of them, and it is not at the top of my list. However, since the entire premise of this argument is based upon how much money an individual makes, then yes, my use of the word "successful" refers to money in this instance.

I am by no means rich, but we do earn a comfortable income. It wasn't always that way. I started at the very bottom of my company in a blue collar position but, through hard work and dedication, have worked my way into a white collar position near the top of the company. Why should I be punished for that? I haven't changed since then. My paycheck just has a few more numbers.

Why don't we go to the other extreme? Why don't we raise the costs of speeding tickets and have an income requirement in place that in order to obtain a drivers license and own a vehicle you have to have a family income of $100,000 at minimum? Sounds ridiculous, right? But no more ridiculous than what is being proposed here.

Wealth envy is a very ugly thing. Hating on someone because they have more or looking down on someone because they have less is just wrong. Plain and simple. If you don't like your station in life, do something to change it.

First off, unless the person who gets a ticket is a millionaire, the difference between tickets on a percentage basis is likely going to be marginal at best.

Second, telling someone that, if they don't like being poor, they should do something to change it is all well and good when you're already at the top. There are certain inequalities within our society, though, so not everyone is actually given a chance to change their station. Women still only average 78 cents to a man's dollar (a great improvement over how things used to be, but still a ways to go).

Furthermore, wealth is a zero sum game, meaning there is a limited amount of money in the world, so in order for the people at the top to maintain their wealth and power, there must always be a larger number of people at the bottom. 50% of people in the US currently live below the poverty line. We have the second-highest rate of child poverty in the developed world. Unemployment is currently at 8.2% (5% unemployment is considered normal). It's not an individual problem, it's a societal problem.

Sockimobi

People saying it is wealth envy are clearly missing the point.

Punishments are meant to be equal - that is never going to be the case with a fine. If I get caught speeding, that's £60 which I can't afford - and I don't mean it hurts a bit - I mean overdraft limit blown, therefore fees from that - vicious cycle. Then points on the licence mean insurance goes up for years - making it prohibitively expensive for me to drive, meaning I can't get to work.

That's quite a big punishment compared to what £60 to someone on a large income means, where It could be the equivalent of me buying a newspaper.

That's an imbalanced punishment. One guy carries on as normal, one has his life screwed up.

so then make sure you don't speed... Like I told my son who is getting close to driving age when he saw me going around 5 or so miles over speed limit. I can afford to pay the ticket so I take my chance, you cannot afford to pay a ticket so you better not take the chance. Making someone pay more for the same offense is offensive.

Fabulous lesson for your son.

For all those crying about "wealth envy"... this guy above is what you get, he reckons he can afford to the break the law (designed to keep you safe?) because he can afford it. He can afford to potentially put you / your family / anyone else at risk. Wonderful.

"I can afford to pay the ticket so I take my chance" :sick: :sick: :sick:

debb1010

People are going to break the law no matter what. People in high places that can dream up these types of punishments are not out to try to get people to stop speeding or whatever the offense might be.....they are solely out to bring in more money. Like the seatbelt law. Who cares if I wear a seat belt or not? I believe it should be my right to wear one or not to wear one and no body's business if I do or not. But some fat cat out there with nothing else to do with their day dreamed up a fine to put on people if they are caught not wearing one...all in the name of safety?!?!?! NO WAY....all in the name of lining their pockets at my expense. These people could care less about safety,...its all about money and how they can take advantage of an opportunity to make more for themselves.

My 2 cents worth.

No...this is simply not fair.


I should not have to pay more for the same infraction that someone else got simply because I make more money. That's not my problem and it's ridiculous.

You do the crime, you pay the fine. It's that simple.

But that's the point. Lots of people who have a lot of money DON'T have a problem paying the fine. So where's the deterrent to stop them from doing the infraction?

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1a1a

Emphatic YES. If I get a speeding fine, that knocks out 150% of my weekly income, BIG deterrent!!!! (And source of incredible stress when I do get caught out collecting speed rolling down an underpass for crying out loud, you gain momentum going down so you can get up the other side, how many pedestrian lives saved by that money raising location for a speed camera?!)

Edit: I rolled a car once, the seat belt saved my life, don't need legal incentive to wear it.

Sockimobi

Who cares if I wear a seat belt or not? I believe it should be my right to wear one or not to wear one and no body's business if I do or not.

Ooh I dunno, your body lying in the highway, having been flung clear of your vehicle may pose a risk to other road users? Some people like to speed, you know. Don't make them brake / swerve for your dead *kitten*!

Edited: Can't spell

Kara_xxx

And please don't start me on Scadinavian criminal justice systems.

Maybe we should send our murderers and sex offenders to those idyllic farm prisons they have in Norway! :huh:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/world/europe/norway-prison-bastoy-nicest/index.html

As a norwegian social worker in prison I say maybe you should. Or at least consider getting your own prisons based on rehabilitation. Most inmates will get out of prison at some point (unless on a literal life sentece or death sentence, which we have neither of in Norway). Who would you rather meet in a dark alley, or have moving in to your neighboorhoud? The inmate that has gone thorugh rehabilitation in an humane prison and given a chance to get a job and safe housing, or the inmate that has rotted 30 years in an overcrowded prison with gangs, violence and drugs and with no focus on actually changing his ways?

I know who I would want living next to me...

(Btw, Norwegian re-offending rates vary between 16 and 18%. How many % of american inmates go back to prison after being released?)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/276754_16_Re-Offending_Rate-_Norways_

Custody is not just about rehabilitation, it's also about punishment and retribution, which I fail to see in an establishment such as Bastoy.

As a VICTIM of crime (if they still matter at all), I know where I think I would rather the offender serves their sentence.

sirihermine

And please don't start me on Scadinavian criminal justice systems.

Maybe we should send our murderers and sex offenders to those idyllic farm prisons they have in Norway! :huh:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/world/europe/norway-prison-bastoy-nicest/index.html

As a norwegian social worker in prison I say maybe you should. Or at least consider getting your own prisons based on rehabilitation. Most inmates will get out of prison at some point (unless on a literal life sentece or death sentence, which we have neither of in Norway). Who would you rather meet in a dark alley, or have moving in to your neighboorhoud? The inmate that has gone thorugh rehabilitation in an humane prison and given a chance to get a job and safe housing, or the inmate that has rotted 30 years in an overcrowded prison with gangs, violence and drugs and with no focus on actually changing his ways?

I know who I would want living next to me...

(Btw, Norwegian re-offending rates vary between 16 and 18%. How many % of american inmates go back to prison after being released?)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/276754_16_Re-Offending_Rate-_Norways_

Custody is not just about rehabilitation, it's also about punishment and retribution, which I fail to see in an establishment such as Bastoy.

As a VICTIM of crime (if they still matter at all), I know where I think I would rather the offender serves their sentence.

As a rape victim myself (becuase apparently that make my point more valid somehow) I would want less crime and less chance of the criminal re-offending and thus hurting someone else like he hurt me.
It should also be said that I work in a max. security prison, which is nothing like Bastøy. Bastoy is the last stop for criminals that have served most of their time, has shown good progress, has gone through therapy and rehabilitation programs and is getting ready to be released.
I'm not following your idea that prison is about retribution, to me prison is about keeping society safe by locking up the criminal and then keeping society safe again by rehabilitating the criminal so he/she will not commit crime again.

I don't see how anyone can support a prison system that doesn't work (when you look at numbers of inmates, reoffendig rates, violence and drugs inside prison etc) just because they feel like that will punish the inmate more. In the long run it punishes society way more.