Pay a speeding ticket based on your income?
Replies
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If this thread is truly about creating a viable deterrent, which I seriously doubt it is, because I really don't think you people are this passionate about traffic safety, then the punishment needs to involve time, not money. Because time is money, but, unlike money, time is truly finite. I can earn more money. I can't get lost time back. As I stated earlier, we are not wealthy, but we do earn a comfortable income that is definitely above the median family income. I would much rather pay $500 for a speeding ticket than do ten hours of community service. I wouldn't like to pay the $500, and I would feel it in the wallet, but I would choose to pay it every single time if given the choice between that and losing ten hours of my time.
Community service, the giving up of one's time, is a way to apply the same punishment to everyone but that affects the so-called "rich" in a way that hurts them more than lower-income people, which seems to be what the majority of the posters in this thread want. Ever notice how, for the most part, the more well-off a person is, the busier they are? They don't just hand me a nice paycheck at the end of every week. I have to bust my *kitten* for it. I'm not saying people who earn less do not work hard, but in my case, as my paycheck has gotten bigger, my hours have gotten longer. I don't call it quitting time after eight hours, I usually call it lunch break. Time is the most valuable commodity to me, and to the truly rich, of whom I know a few, it is definitely their most precious resource.
You can say your argument isn't about money until you are blue in the face. You are wrong. You are not nearly as concerned about safety as you are about making sure people who have worked hard to earn more than you have more taken away than you do for the exact same infraction. You can say "you will not be affected if you don't speed," and I agree with that. But your life will not change one bit no matter how high they raise the price for a speeding ticket. If I have to pay $500 or $1,000 for a ticket, you are still going to be in the same situation you find yourself in now. Just because they take it from me doesn't mean they are going to give it to you. I have had one speeding ticket in my life, when I was 21 years old and making a fraction of what I make today. I have never met one person who has decided they are not going to speed because they can't afford the ticket. People either speed or they don't.
For the record, I asked my brother, who is a fire department lieutenant, and who responds to hundreds of accident scenes each year, if he sees more accidents involving affluent, middle class, or lower-income people. He said, at least in his experience, lower-income people are involved in the majority of the accidents he has responded to over the years. So to assert that affluent people are burning up the roads causing the majority of traffic accidents is absurd.
And, please, spare me the economics lessons. If you can't afford to pay your speeding tickets, then economics is apparently not your strong suit. I wouldn't take marital counseling from someone who had been divorced three times, and I'm not going to take economics 101 from you.
Well first - I would hardly call discussing something in an internet forum 'passionate'. For me, the argument definitely is about viable deterrents.
I think you are blowing the discussion a little out of proportion to be honest. Surely you can agree that the punishment should fit the crime. Therefore a fixed penalty fine is not a viable deterrent as this is clearly imbalanced by how much money the person can afford to spend. As you say - you would choose $500 over 10 hours every time, so clearly a (in the uk) £60 fine which is roughly $90-$100 isn't really going to be noticeable to you. Therefore there is no real deterrent.
You mention community service, which is what I suggested some pages back, and I totally agree with this. That is one way to level the playing field.
Oh, and those of us who aren't that well off aren't necessarily in that position because we are poor with money. In my case - the fact that I am still solvent is testament to the fact that I am pretty damn good with money.
Some of us perhaps just had a bit of bad luck at a bad time and are just about holding on. So don't try to judge me on how much money I have. You know **** all about me.
Exactly. The punishment should fit the crime. The crime is the same, no matter what your income is. That's why I agree that something along the lines of community service is a much better deterrent.
You assume that a fine would not be noticeable to me. It would be noticeable. However, having to lose my time would be more noticeable and affect me more.
I have nothing but respect for people who can hold it all together when times are tough. I am not judging you on how much money you have or don't have. I have been there, struggling to make ends meet. And I know things could take a turn for the worse and I could possibly end up there again. But never once did I think people who had more than me should have to pay more for the exact same thing that I did.
I have been in your shoes, or very similar shoes before. Now try to put yourself in my shoes for a minute and imagine how you would feel if people think you should have to pay more for things just because you make more. I don't imagine you would agree with it so strongly then.
I don't feel bad about having had a small measure of financial success in my life, and I get pretty damn tired of people thinking I should feel bad about it or be punished for it. I don't understand that mentality. Never have, never will.0 -
As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.
The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...
You also assume the America is "extreme-capitalism" as you put it. This cannot be farther from the truth. Government go so involved, created so many loopholes, deemed corporations as people, give taxbreaks to their friends corporations, created the Federal Reserve ect, that we are not a capitalist economy. We practice corporatism in this country, thanks to big government. We haven't been a true Free Market society in a long long time and our country is rapidly spiraling out of control because of it.0 -
Here, in Ontario, if you are doing 50 over the limit, you're going to kick the rest of your days driving goodbye!
Penalties for street racing, stunt driving and driving 50 km/h or over the speed limit
Pre-conviction – Immediate 7-day licence suspension and 7-day vehicle impoundment
Upon conviction - $2,000 to $10,000 fine, 6 demerit points, up to 6 months jail, up to 2 years licence suspension for a first conviction
Second offence – Driver licence suspension up to 10 years within 10 years of first conviction
I like this law! It doesn't matter how much you make, you're going to get F-ED!
Pretty much the same here in California.0 -
As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.
The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...
You also assume the America is "extreme-capitalism" as you put it. This cannot be farther from the truth. Government go so involved, created so many loopholes, deemed corporations as people, give taxbreaks to their friends corporations, created the Federal Reserve ect, that we are not a capitalist economy. We practice corporatism in this country, thanks to big government. We haven't been a true Free Market society in a long long time and our country is rapidly spiraling out of control because of it.
Couldn't agree more! Too many politicians with a short-sighted approach to running this country. Let's give everyone stuff for free (healthcare, etc). Wait, who will pay for it? Oh, lets just take money from the wealthier ones to pay for it. Why should they care, they have enough money anyways. That cripples the long-term desire for success. They just don't get it!0 -
I'm wondering whether our friend hopped a flight to Scandinavia for more research.....0
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As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.
The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...
You also assume the America is "extreme-capitalism" as you put it. This cannot be farther from the truth. Government go so involved, created so many loopholes, deemed corporations as people, give taxbreaks to their friends corporations, created the Federal Reserve ect, that we are not a capitalist economy. We practice corporatism in this country, thanks to big government. We haven't been a true Free Market society in a long long time and our country is rapidly spiraling out of control because of it.
I agree with you that the reality of the "free-market" is that it isn't free, corporate welfare is rife. Are you asserting by your last sentence that a true free market would be a positive model though? I am dubious.0 -
As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.
The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...
You also assume the America is "extreme-capitalism" as you put it. This cannot be farther from the truth. Government go so involved, created so many loopholes, deemed corporations as people, give taxbreaks to their friends corporations, created the Federal Reserve ect, that we are not a capitalist economy. We practice corporatism in this country, thanks to big government. We haven't been a true Free Market society in a long long time and our country is rapidly spiraling out of control because of it.
Couldn't agree more! Too many politicians with a short-sighted approach to running this country. Let's give everyone stuff for free (healthcare, etc). Wait, who will pay for it? Oh, lets just take money from the wealthier ones to pay for it. Why should they care, they have enough money anyways. That cripples the long-term desire for success. They just don't get it!
Pretty sure you completely missed the point. He was actually criticising the involvement of government to skew and mangle the system to benefit businesses and corporations. Not saying that the government is punishing them for the benefit of the poor. However your opinion I think further illustrates how effectively these corporations have brainwashed people. The fact that you have the perception that your country is welfare-heavy and overly burdonsome to the rich is kinda hilarious when you look at the rest of the developed world.0 -
Haha, conservatives love to say stuff like "your logic is faulty" but won't actually attend to the facts or make a logical argument themselves. Their arguments in this thread are all emotional platitudes and unexamined value assertions. They won't look at the actual statistics, but when you do they WILL tell you that you are completely irrational and build strawmen about how you must be envious rather than construct a logical fact-based argument themselves, or even address the points you have actually made.
Welcome to America... hahaha... It is like this regarding ANY argument that there is an obvious inequality.... Race, Sexuality, Gender... etc... it always happens
I agree with the poster who said Sociology 100, lol, the first thing you learn is: "People in power, want to stay in power"0 -
As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.
The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...
This
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Haha, conservatives love to say stuff like "your logic is faulty" but won't actually attend to the facts or make a logical argument themselves. Their arguments in this thread are all emotional platitudes and unexamined value assertions. They won't look at the actual statistics, but when you do they WILL tell you that you are completely irrational and build strawmen about how you must be envious rather than construct a logical fact-based argument themselves, or even address the points you have actually made.
Welcome to America... hahaha... It is like this regarding ANY argument that there is an obvious inequality.... Race, Sexuality, Gender... etc... it always happens
I agree with the poster who said Sociology 100, lol, the first thing you learn is: "People in power, want to stay in power"
Ha completely agree, also the idea that people with left-wing leanings are broke, live off other people and are driven by emotion and ideology.. where as the right are the opposite.... yer right0 -
How the Democratic Party of America would deal with this issue....
Millionaire and welfare mom are both caught speeding by the same cop on the same road going the same speed.
New "fairness rules" imposed by the leftist dictatorship brought about by the election of 2012 are going to change society in their own image.
Millionaire has to pay a $150,000 fine because he needs to help people, it's his "Christian" obligation under this social contract that he never saw, signed, or agreed to. Money is divvied up according to the needs of the community, with the relatives and business partners of the lawmakers getting their "cut".
Welfare mom gets a check from the government for $2000 for speeding, because she was obviously stressed out by the millionaire that has a nice car and money and she doesn't.
That's what I think of this "income-based" penalty...and how it violates equal protection under the law.0 -
Nah, I just actually work for living and am not the "wealth envy" person you think me out to be. With income close to a quarter million a year between my wife and I, I don't think I qualify.I'm wondering whether our friend hopped a flight to Scandinavia for more research.....
Anyway, after researching more, speeding has been reduced as well as accidents because of fines inconjunction with technology . Due to more "speed cameras" that have been monitoring and helping to deter people from speeding, more are to be installed throughout. To be fair (since it's right to be) the studies were done in areas where income was moderate to high. I couldn't find a study on lower income statistics. If anyone can, please post it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
After watching a show on what Philadelphians have to go through to get a vehicle out of impound, maybe we should just take any regular speeder (more than 3) have their car towed once they get caught again then not let them have it for at least 24 hours before it can get released. They pay for impound charges along with more fines.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Ridiculous idea...PERIOD!
I'm not even close to wealthy (teacher) and even I believe this idea is just stupid. Doesn't surprise me that this is a law in many places. Some just hate the wealthy, no matter what.
I can see it now:
Timmy walks into the convenient store, picks up a bottle of water and pays $.99
Jill walks into the same convenient store, picks up the same model bottle of water and pays $236, just because her family makes more money.
Won't happen and shouldn't!0 -
Probably because they don't exist as you know them, these countrys generally don't have the kind of income disparity that you have in the US either. So I guess it goes hand-in-hand. The extreme hypotheticals people are citing in this thread aren't realistic there, because the more socialist ideology is seen in all aspects of society.
Nah, I just actually work for living and am not the "wealth envy" person you think me out to be. With income close to a quarter million a year between my wife and I, I don't think I qualify.I'm wondering whether our friend hopped a flight to Scandinavia for more research.....
Anyway, after researching more, speeding has been reduced as well as accidents because of fines inconjunction with technology . Due to more "speed cameras" that have been monitoring and helping to deter people from speeding, more are to be installed throughout. To be fair (since it's right to be) the studies were done in areas where income was moderate to high. I couldn't find a study on lower income statistics. If anyone can, please post it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0
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