Pay a speeding ticket based on your income?

Nataliaho

As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.

The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...

AHatFullOfSky

I don't agree at all. The fine should reflect the infraction not the persons income.

That's not the issue. If a speeding fine is say $500 dollars for 2 people (one who makes $15,000 a month and one who makes $1,500), who do you think would be deterred more from speeding again? The point is to create more deterrence. If neither speed, neither suffers.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

But your logic is faulty. You assume that the fine would deter people from speeding when clearly a law didn't. If people want to speed the will reguardless of the penalty.

If the logic is faulty, then why is it working in Denmark and Norway?

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Could we keep Denmark out of this? As I've written before, fines aren't differentiated in relation to income. At least not yet

fiveohmike

The be all end all solution.

If your caught with ANY driving infraction, you are summarily executed on the spot.

If you really about making a change, that would be the one that does it.

fiveohmike

Also, a ticket based on income, would just encourage poor, broke *kitten* lazy people to speed to their hearts content. Why? Because they can still claim hardship and not pay the fine and speed like a ****tard, while the people who can afford it are just having their wealth spread around, being penalized for being successful.

If your not successful its your own fault.

unsuspectingfish

Also, a ticket based on income, would just encourage poor, broke *kitten* lazy people to speed to their hearts content. Why? Because they can still claim hardship and not pay the fine and speed like a ****tard, while the people who can afford it are just having their wealth spread around, being penalized for being successful.

If your not successful its your own fault.

I doubt that's how it would word. You have to submit proof of income for every sort of income-based payment plan.

mmeddleton

Still eagerly awaiting something resembling hard data to prove the effectiveness of this theory. The OP keeps talking about how well it is working in Denmark. Another member from Denmark says they don't have that law there. This is what I mean when I say the OP's supporting arguments are remarkable fact-free. Yes the OP is articulate and sounds reasonable. In fact, he uses the same kind of arguments the government uses when they want to violate your privacy.

Why wouldn't you support this law if you always obey the traffic laws? = Why would you mind if we listen in on your private telephone conversations if you are not doing anything wrong? See the resemblance?

The OP provides absolutely no data to back up his assertion. The whole purpose of this thread is to stir up class envy and disguise it with a noble-sounding purpose. He succeeded. Hey, let's all gang up on the guys that have more than we do. That will solve everything.

Don't you realize that is exactly the political game being played to keep you focused with your (self) righteous anger on the EVIL RICH while politicians bankrupt countries using money confiscated from productive people to buy votes from lazy fools with their hands out? You want a job? Stop economically destroying the people that create jobs. How about trying that? Wake up sheeple!

BrunetteRunner87

I'm a poor student and can easily say the prospect of having to pay for a ticket has never stopped me from speeding.

fiveohmike

Also, a ticket based on income, would just encourage poor, broke *kitten* lazy people to speed to their hearts content. Why? Because they can still claim hardship and not pay the fine and speed like a ****tard, while the people who can afford it are just having their wealth spread around, being penalized for being successful.

If your not successful its your own fault.

I doubt that's how it would word. You have to submit proof of income for every sort of income-based payment plan.

Ah gotcha, so more government bureaucracy So we have to raise taxes on the poor and middle class, so that we can pay for this new plan to tax rich people.

Nataliaho

Also, a ticket based on income, would just encourage poor, broke *kitten* lazy people to speed to their hearts content. Why? Because they can still claim hardship and not pay the fine and speed like a ****tard, while the people who can afford it are just having their wealth spread around, being penalized for being successful.

If your not successful its your own fault.

I doubt that's how it would word. You have to submit proof of income for every sort of income-based payment plan.

Ah gotcha, so more government bureaucracy So we have to raise taxes on the poor and middle class, so that we can pay for this new plan to tax rich people.

Why can't you tax rich people to tax rich people?

fiveohmike

Also, a ticket based on income, would just encourage poor, broke *kitten* lazy people to speed to their hearts content. Why? Because they can still claim hardship and not pay the fine and speed like a ****tard, while the people who can afford it are just having their wealth spread around, being penalized for being successful.

If your not successful its your own fault.

I doubt that's how it would word. You have to submit proof of income for every sort of income-based payment plan.

Ah gotcha, so more government bureaucracy So we have to raise taxes on the poor and middle class, so that we can pay for this new plan to tax rich people.

Why can't you tax rich people to tax rich people?

Obama? Is that you?

mmeddleton

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :explode:

AHatFullOfSky

Just bc it's not implemented doesn't mean I don't like the concept. It is a part of the fine system when dealing with people driving while drunk. It hurts your wallet yeah, but then stop doing it. It's peoples lives that are at stake.

I do believe and hope it will be implemented as an instrument to reduce speeding. And as part of a fully developed system to reduce speeding. Fx more police on the road to catch the offenders, maybe even removal of the car if you continue speeding above a certain limit, as it is now with drunk drivers. We also work with people through information campaigns of different sorts.

And I really like the idea of doing Community service!

My point is. I believe that with a wide range of instruments you are able to reach more people. Not everyone speed for the same reasons.

chrishgt4

What a lot of people seem to be missing is that it isn't about making money, it isn't about letting the poor off with paying less/without paying...it's about creating a viable deterrent.

This is why I originally suggested some sort of community service. Time is far more equal than money.

I also think, though, that fining in proportion to the offence is a good idea as there is a large band between being a little bit over and a lot over before you get to the point of licence revoking etc.

sirihermine

As a non-american I always find it so interesting to read these kinds of threads. I would say that here in Australia we are somewhere in between the socialist models of Denmark/Norway and the extreme capitalism of the US. In my opinion capitalism has been proven to be as faulty an idealogy as socialism, so I wonder why people cling so tightly to the idea that it isn't.

The notion that we live in some kind of utopian level playing ground right now is absurd. Do you really think that everyone who has more, deserves more and those who struggle equally deserve their lot in life? The current capitalist model has gotten so out of control that we have basically reverted to the times of kings and peasants.. the only difference being that the peasants have been brainwashed into thinking that if they just play along, one day they too can be a king...

Well written.
Just a side note though; neither Norway nor Denmark is run by a socialist model.
There is quite a difference between social democracy and socialism.

travisseger

If this thread is truly about creating a viable deterrent, which I seriously doubt it is, because I really don't think you people are this passionate about traffic safety, then the punishment needs to involve time, not money. Because time is money, but, unlike money, time is truly finite. I can earn more money. I can't get lost time back. As I stated earlier, we are not wealthy, but we do earn a comfortable income that is definitely above the median family income. I would much rather pay $500 for a speeding ticket than do ten hours of community service. I wouldn't like to pay the $500, and I would feel it in the wallet, but I would choose to pay it every single time if given the choice between that and losing ten hours of my time.

Community service, the giving up of one's time, is a way to apply the same punishment to everyone but that affects the so-called "rich" in a way that hurts them more than lower-income people, which seems to be what the majority of the posters in this thread want. Ever notice how, for the most part, the more well-off a person is, the busier they are? They don't just hand me a nice paycheck at the end of every week. I have to bust my *kitten* for it. I'm not saying people who earn less do not work hard, but in my case, as my paycheck has gotten bigger, my hours have gotten longer. I don't call it quitting time after eight hours, I usually call it lunch break. Time is the most valuable commodity to me, and to the truly rich, of whom I know a few, it is definitely their most precious resource.

You can say your argument isn't about money until you are blue in the face. You are wrong. You are not nearly as concerned about safety as you are about making sure people who have worked hard to earn more than you have more taken away than you do for the exact same infraction. You can say "you will not be affected if you don't speed," and I agree with that. But your life will not change one bit no matter how high they raise the price for a speeding ticket. If I have to pay $500 or $1,000 for a ticket, you are still going to be in the same situation you find yourself in now. Just because they take it from me doesn't mean they are going to give it to you. I have had one speeding ticket in my life, when I was 21 years old and making a fraction of what I make today. I have never met one person who has decided they are not going to speed because they can't afford the ticket. People either speed or they don't.

For the record, I asked my brother, who is a fire department lieutenant, and who responds to hundreds of accident scenes each year, if he sees more accidents involving affluent, middle class, or lower-income people. He said, at least in his experience, lower-income people are involved in the majority of the accidents he has responded to over the years. So to assert that affluent people are burning up the roads causing the majority of traffic accidents is absurd.

And, please, spare me the economics lessons. If you can't afford to pay your speeding tickets, then economics is apparently not your strong suit. I wouldn't take marital counseling from someone who had been divorced three times, and I'm not going to take economics 101 from you.

chivalryder

Here, in Ontario, if you are doing 50 over the limit, you're going to kick the rest of your days driving goodbye!

Penalties for street racing, stunt driving and driving 50 km/h or over the speed limit

Pre-conviction – Immediate 7-day licence suspension and 7-day vehicle impoundment

Upon conviction - $2,000 to $10,000 fine, 6 demerit points, up to 6 months jail, up to 2 years licence suspension for a first conviction

Second offence – Driver licence suspension up to 10 years within 10 years of first conviction

I like this law! It doesn't matter how much you make, you're going to get F-ED!

DMP3

I didn't read all of the responses so forgive me if this was already said but with the reasoning you listed wouldn't that mean that if tickets were based on income then those people who have little to no income wouldn't be worried about getting a ticket because their fine would be incredibly low? Doesn't that just make it so that instead of wealthy people being more inclined to speed then lower income people would then be more inclined to speed?

hyperionguy

Even if this were a good idea, it couldn't be based simply on income. It would have to be based on discretionary income, meaning you would have to establish an organization the size and burden of the IRS in order to administer the "proper" penalty.

Someone making $200,000 a year raising 2 healthy children and 1 child with disabilities and housing/caring for an aging widowed parent is less able to afford a ticket twice as large as a single guy making $100,000 a year renting a modest apartment and no dependents.

Just sayin'. :bigsmile:

All of this, when large tickets don't deter lower income people in the first place. If it did, none of them would be getting tickets and showing up at court.

Oh, and Sirihermine, I also think your avatar pic is beautiful.

chrishgt4

If this thread is truly about creating a viable deterrent, which I seriously doubt it is, because I really don't think you people are this passionate about traffic safety, then the punishment needs to involve time, not money. Because time is money, but, unlike money, time is truly finite. I can earn more money. I can't get lost time back. As I stated earlier, we are not wealthy, but we do earn a comfortable income that is definitely above the median family income. I would much rather pay $500 for a speeding ticket than do ten hours of community service. I wouldn't like to pay the $500, and I would feel it in the wallet, but I would choose to pay it every single time if given the choice between that and losing ten hours of my time.

Community service, the giving up of one's time, is a way to apply the same punishment to everyone but that affects the so-called "rich" in a way that hurts them more than lower-income people, which seems to be what the majority of the posters in this thread want. Ever notice how, for the most part, the more well-off a person is, the busier they are? They don't just hand me a nice paycheck at the end of every week. I have to bust my *kitten* for it. I'm not saying people who earn less do not work hard, but in my case, as my paycheck has gotten bigger, my hours have gotten longer. I don't call it quitting time after eight hours, I usually call it lunch break. Time is the most valuable commodity to me, and to the truly rich, of whom I know a few, it is definitely their most precious resource.

You can say your argument isn't about money until you are blue in the face. You are wrong. You are not nearly as concerned about safety as you are about making sure people who have worked hard to earn more than you have more taken away than you do for the exact same infraction. You can say "you will not be affected if you don't speed," and I agree with that. But your life will not change one bit no matter how high they raise the price for a speeding ticket. If I have to pay $500 or $1,000 for a ticket, you are still going to be in the same situation you find yourself in now. Just because they take it from me doesn't mean they are going to give it to you. I have had one speeding ticket in my life, when I was 21 years old and making a fraction of what I make today. I have never met one person who has decided they are not going to speed because they can't afford the ticket. People either speed or they don't.

For the record, I asked my brother, who is a fire department lieutenant, and who responds to hundreds of accident scenes each year, if he sees more accidents involving affluent, middle class, or lower-income people. He said, at least in his experience, lower-income people are involved in the majority of the accidents he has responded to over the years. So to assert that affluent people are burning up the roads causing the majority of traffic accidents is absurd.

And, please, spare me the economics lessons. If you can't afford to pay your speeding tickets, then economics is apparently not your strong suit. I wouldn't take marital counseling from someone who had been divorced three times, and I'm not going to take economics 101 from you.

Well first - I would hardly call discussing something in an internet forum 'passionate'. For me, the argument definitely is about viable deterrents.

I think you are blowing the discussion a little out of proportion to be honest. Surely you can agree that the punishment should fit the crime. Therefore a fixed penalty fine is not a viable deterrent as this is clearly imbalanced by how much money the person can afford to spend. As you say - you would choose $500 over 10 hours every time, so clearly a (in the uk) £60 fine which is roughly $90-$100 isn't really going to be noticeable to you. Therefore there is no real deterrent.

You mention community service, which is what I suggested some pages back, and I totally agree with this. That is one way to level the playing field.

Oh, and those of us who aren't that well off aren't necessarily in that position because we are poor with money. In my case - the fact that I am still solvent is testament to the fact that I am pretty damn good with money.

Some of us perhaps just had a bit of bad luck at a bad time and are just about holding on. So don't try to judge me on how much money I have. You know **** all about me.

tquig

So we all agree that this is a dumb idea right? :laugh:


(Just trying to keep things light with a bit of humor)