Being Black
Replies
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Racially, I identify as mixed race/latino/person of colour/black depending on whatever I want. I'm a happy go lucky boy. Why do I feel so bad that someone told me I am apathetic and not doing what I should? I just try to be a good PERSON, I don't think too much about being a good black person. Sometimes I guess I would like to know more people my own race so I don't feel a little different ffrom time to time
Here's the catch. Simply knowing more people your own race won't make you feel less different. I lived in Kenya for almost 2 years and nearly everyone there has black skin. As a "white" (white compared to them) person there I was surrounded by millions of people with black skin. You know what I saw. Blacks hating other blacks because they had different skin color, whiter hands, different hair, longer legs, different accents. The Bantu don't like the Kikuyu, and the Kalenjin and Kamba think each other to be superior to the other tribe. The Maasai are all close to 7 feet tall so they think themselves superior to everyone. It's more hate and arguing than I see here in the United States so I have to laugh when I hear a black person here wish they could be around a larger group of black people. You think that actually changes anything? No. People are people no matter what the skin color is. The racism doesn't end just because there are no white people around. Read or watch Dr. Suess' Start Bellied Sneetches and you'll see the perfect model for these problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3yJomUhs0g
Just do your best to get along with the people you find yourself around and don't worry about labels.0 -
Also, I find it odd that black people often say they are proud to be black. If I said I am proud to be white, Id sound like a racist.
I feel like I am going to get major backlash for this but I don't see how anyone could be proud of being any race or ethnicity. It makes no sense to me. I am proud of things I have worked hard at and accomplished. I didn't work hard at being Mexican and caucasian. I did NOTHING to make that happen. My parents had sex and through the miracle of nature and genetics I was born. I think its fine to be proud that you overcame a stereotype or hardship because of your race, but not solely on the fact that your parents had sex to create you.
Then again I also feel like gay pride is silly for the same reasoning. You can be proud of having the bravery to come out, but not of who you like to have sex with. Seems silly to me.
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Oppression is oppression... whether it happens because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation... or something as inane as where you went to school or what your clothing size is... "White People" have been oppressed by other "white people", because of their religion or tribe they were a part of... Romans oppressed the Celts, Picts and Gaels... among many other European Tribes.... Catholics oppressed the Protestants.... in the US, it was the Native American Indians, the Irish, the Chinese and the Blacks (from both Africa and the Caribbean)... The KKK wasn't just against black people, they were against Republicans (at the time), Catholics, Jews, and homosexuals as well... People can oppress other people any time and any where. In India, it's the caste system (or at least was). In Israel, it's the Palastinians. In Muslim countries it's the non-Muslims or the smaller minority Muslim tribes (like the Kurds) and largely women (though there are some countries that are more liberal towards women). In China, it's the Tibetans. Believe it or not, to be of German decent in America during the two World Wars could find oppression as well (though admittedly to a much lesser extent than other groups)... Many Germans changed their last names (as many Jews did before them) during this time (which is why I say to a lesser extent because it's much easier to change a last name than it is a skin color). Even in the US, Japanese were placed in internment camps right here after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
My point is, oppression has been happening since the dawn of time... towards everyone at one time or another. There is always going to be people that feel they are superior than others... I just think white people are "better" at it.
Note: I say "better" loosely as whites, particularly of Roman and/or Anglo-Saxon decents (which were major conquering groups in their time of prime along with the Normans who descended from Norweigan people), have been the group that has been particularly "successful" (again loosely) in oppressing groups of people as a part of their conquering strategy... and I honestly believe that it was a trait that continued on through even the last century... It could have easily been any other people group as well.
I also want to add that I don't think oppression of any kind is right, I'm just trying to add my perspective of it all from an Anglo-Saxon perspective.
We are talking about RACIAL oppression,in a topic about being black in predominantly white,western countries.
You can't just come along and say oppression is oppression.its not.There are different forms of oppression and those differences are SO important,and can't just be glanced over like that.
White people have never been victims of racial oppression (which is the topic at hand),and in every almost every single example you listed,white people are the ones doing the oppressing.White people vs white people is not a form of racial oppression.
I feel this type of response is guilt.Like others have said before,you don't have to try and cover anything up,you are not the racists,some of your ancestors where.You just need to be aware of it and stop trying to go off track ,and realize that your privileges come as a result of that history.
oh and I put racial in caps for emphasis,i'm not angry or anything. :P
It is still oppression... you don't have to agree with me.... Putting up a sign that says "Straights" only or "Catholics" only or "(insert ANY type of demographic) only" is no different at the very core than putting up a sign that states "Whites only". And to be honest, I don't feel guilty... why feel guilt for something I haven't done nor participated in. I am merely looking at this from a historical perspective, not a personal one. I'm just telling you that "white" people aren't exempt from being oppressed from other "white" people... white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse. The Germans oppressed the Jews (who are both white but also both racially different (as Jewish people are not just a religious group, but an ethnic group that have genetic predispostions to certian disease and traits that other groups do not)) to the point of wanting to exterminate them... how is that any better than trying to doom a group of people to poverty and ignorance? Other than one is a much quicker death sentence. I'm not saying these things to merely shock, I'm saying that just because a person is white and they are being oppressed by other whites doesn't make their experience less real and less damaging because it is done by the same color of people. In the end it is all the same thing and again, that doesn't make your (or anyone elses) experiences any less real or damaging either.
I think in the end we both will just have two different perspectives and understandings on the matter because we have both had different experiences and as long as we hear those perspectives and try to empathize and understand them, then we can make some real progress between us all. Have I as a white woman felt discrimination? Sure, to a degree (I've had a professor in college, in the year 2003, that held the belief and was very public about it, that women could not and should not be in the field of physics and would berate us until we quit his class), but I get that others have felt much more discrimination and oppression than I or my family ever will.0 -
I'm with Britlocs on this one. Kara xx mentions if a black family don't want their daughter dating a white guy, is it exactly equivilant to the reverse situation.
I think...... white people can be discriminated against for their race (it diesn't happen often, but I am not saying never) as can straight people, men, whatever. But oppression is about power. So a black person can't reall, to my mind, oppress a white person. They could treat them badly for their race and call them a bad term, but it is not the same racism and oppression because the larger power balance in society. That is said, it would still be NASTY and I am not saying it is right, just like, not racial oppression.
'Privilege' is about society being set up in a particular groups favour generally. Most of us are privileged in some ways and not in others. Eg. I am male and not disabled so I have privilege with that. I am not that dark skinned so I have privilege compared to darker black people. Like, for example I need to be aware that if I am at work and someone comes in the shop, they might think I am the boss because i am the only man, because that is a male privilege thing. I can't stop people's assumptions like that but I can ensure I interact with my female colleagues in a way that does not reinforce and inbalance of power. People get upset talking about this because they think privilege is an accusation that you are personally racist (homophobic, sexist, ablist etc). It isn't- the VAST majority of white people I ever met are not racist, in fact most are very aware and informed, like no ignorant. But that does not negate privilege. Acknowledging privilege makes you LESS oppressive not more, like the example i gave above.
This discussion was kind of started about questioning my black identity- I know colour blindness is seen as a real virtue but I want to be able to learn about and idneitify withnthat part of myself. It is a part of me. Not my entire self. I don't see why it has to be ignoring it entirely (impossible anyways, i'd say) or entirely defining myself by it. I said it before, and I say it again, white people don't tend to get defined by their race, it is like the default anyways so not relevant. When part of your culture is not always represented or represented positively in the world, sometimes you need to make an effort to engage with it, and thatb is what I mean by talking about blackness. It is not about defining myself only by that.
I probably sounded way chippy there, I didn't mean to!!
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Oppression is oppression... whether it happens because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation... or something as inane as where you went to school or what your clothing size is... "White People" have been oppressed by other "white people", because of their religion or tribe they were a part of... Romans oppressed the Celts, Picts and Gaels... among many other European Tribes.... Catholics oppressed the Protestants.... in the US, it was the Native American Indians, the Irish, the Chinese and the Blacks (from both Africa and the Caribbean)... The KKK wasn't just against black people, they were against Republicans (at the time), Catholics, Jews, and homosexuals as well... People can oppress other people any time and any where. In India, it's the caste system (or at least was). In Israel, it's the Palastinians. In Muslim countries it's the non-Muslims or the smaller minority Muslim tribes (like the Kurds) and largely women (though there are some countries that are more liberal towards women). In China, it's the Tibetans. Believe it or not, to be of German decent in America during the two World Wars could find oppression as well (though admittedly to a much lesser extent than other groups)... Many Germans changed their last names (as many Jews did before them) during this time (which is why I say to a lesser extent because it's much easier to change a last name than it is a skin color). Even in the US, Japanese were placed in internment camps right here after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
My point is, oppression has been happening since the dawn of time... towards everyone at one time or another. There is always going to be people that feel they are superior than others... I just think white people are "better" at it.
Note: I say "better" loosely as whites, particularly of Roman and/or Anglo-Saxon decents (which were major conquering groups in their time of prime along with the Normans who descended from Norweigan people), have been the group that has been particularly "successful" (again loosely) in oppressing groups of people as a part of their conquering strategy... and I honestly believe that it was a trait that continued on through even the last century... It could have easily been any other people group as well.
I also want to add that I don't think oppression of any kind is right, I'm just trying to add my perspective of it all from an Anglo-Saxon perspective.
We are talking about RACIAL oppression,in a topic about being black in predominantly white,western countries.
You can't just come along and say oppression is oppression.its not.There are different forms of oppression and those differences are SO important,and can't just be glanced over like that.
White people have never been victims of racial oppression (which is the topic at hand),and in every almost every single example you listed,white people are the ones doing the oppressing.White people vs white people is not a form of racial oppression.
I feel this type of response is guilt.Like others have said before,you don't have to try and cover anything up,you are not the racists,some of your ancestors where.You just need to be aware of it and stop trying to go off track ,and realize that your privileges come as a result of that history.
oh and I put racial in caps for emphasis,i'm not angry or anything. :P
It is still oppression... you don't have to agree with me.... Putting up a sign that says "Straights" only or "Catholics" only or "(insert ANY type of demographic) only" is no different at the very core than putting up a sign that states "Whites only". And to be honest, I don't feel guilty... why feel guilt for something I haven't done nor participated in. I am merely looking at this from a historical perspective, not a personal one. I'm just telling you that "white" people aren't exempt from being oppressed from other "white" people... white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse. The Germans oppressed the Jews (who are both white but also both racially different (as Jewish people are not just a religious group, but an ethnic group that have genetic predispostions to certian disease and traits that other groups do not)) to the point of wanting to exterminate them... how is that any better than trying to doom a group of people to poverty and ignorance? Other than one is a much quicker death sentence. I'm not saying these things to merely shock, I'm saying that just because a person is white and they are being oppressed by other whites doesn't make their experience less real and less damaging because it is done by the same color of people. In the end it is all the same thing and again, that doesn't make your (or anyone elses) experiences any less real or damaging either.
I think in the end we both will just have two different perspectives and understandings on the matter because we have both had different experiences and as long as we hear those perspectives and try to empathize and understand them, then we can make some real progress between us all. Have I as a white woman felt discrimination? Sure, to a degree (I've had a professor in college, in the year 2003, that held the belief and was very public about it, that women could not and should not be in the field of physics and would berate us until we quit his class), but I get that others have felt much more discrimination and oppression than I or my family ever will.
Thats exactly my point,though.You have come to a thread about "being black",and said your are looking at it from a historical perspective,and not a personal one.Well,then your point isn't valid,at all.
Its like me as a man, going into a topic about women and their periods, and experiences with PMS,and rather than just sitting back and listening,I start listing a whole bunch irrelevant things that men go through,and saying things like "yep I understand completely,I'm just looking at from a biological perspective,we have such and such equivalent to pms"
Or going to a conference on cancer ,and saying "yeh, but what about AIDS dude,the AIDS".
Putting up a sign that says whites only vs Catholics,are both bad,I get that,but that isn't the topic we are discussing.Nobody said white people are exempt from being oppressed,we are saying, it has never happened in regards to race.We are talking about racial oppression,any other form is irrelevant when talking about race.I have used other examples only as analogies for better understanding.
your example of Jews is the same thing,whether Jews are white or not is irrelevant,the OPPRESSORS are STILL WHITE,in that case.White people have been the common denominator in most cases of Racial oppression.
"white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse" this entire sentence is a complete contradiction.How is that not better,if you can overcome something easier and faster? thats exactly what privilege is.
I'm going to step out of topic because I would like read others opinions now.You can always send me a message if you want to talk further.Although I do need a social media break for a while haha.0 -
Racism can definitely flow in any direction. However, the difference is that the white man has not been as crippled by it as the minorities have. Thus it seems a bit hypocritical of them to call racism when they have been the ones oppressing others for centuries. Yeah they might face a bit of trouble today but, honestly, that’s not too bad in comparison.
Ummmmmm about the comment that said that the white man can’t support any “agenda” I’m not sure if I’m misinterpreting this or not so I’m not going to address that.
White men may have oppressed people before, but I don't see what that has to do with me personally. I've never done anything to anyone, so I dont see why I should be held to a different standard. And actually, my parents have never done anything, and my grandparents have never done anything. And those are the people who raised me. I'm sick and tired of hearing that I should be ashamed for something I never did or took part in.
At what point did I say that white people should personally feel ashamed or that all white people's ancestors took part in oppressing others? I never said you should be held to any standard. I was referring to previous statements about how racism can be directed at ANY race and why it seems exaggerated to other when a white man claims to be oppressed when EVERYBODY is in the same situation as them. I don't necessarily hold these opinions I was just stating how it is viewed by others.0 -
Racism can definitely flow in any direction. However, the difference is that the white man has not been as crippled by it as the minorities have. Thus it seems a bit hypocritical of them to call racism when they have been the ones oppressing others for centuries. Yeah they might face a bit of trouble today but, honestly, that’s not too bad in comparison.
Ummmmmm about the comment that said that the white man can’t support any “agenda” I’m not sure if I’m misinterpreting this or not so I’m not going to address that.
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that because "the man" was predominantly racist back in the day that now any white man loses their right to claiming that they are being discriminated against? This is what I mean when I said that “discrimination flows both ways” (and I hope you don't take this the wrong way Tammi) but this mindset is what begets discrimination of any type and any capacity.
I think we need to shed that type of mentality and simply strive to better ourselves and quit making a crutch out of the discrimination card. And yes, I’ve been discriminated against…I’m not one to sit there and make myself out to be a martyr, I’ll just prove them wrong by being successful.
No actually you understand incorrectly. I was not stating that they lose any rights. I was referring to previous statements about how racism can be directed at ANY race and why it seems exaggerated to others when a white man claims to be oppressed when others are in the same situation as them. I don't necessarily hold these opinions, I was just stating how it is viewed by others. If you looked at my other posts you would see that I don’t hold any of these views and that I don’t care what color anybody’s skin is personally. I just know a good bit of the historical and social implications of how it plays a role in everyone’s lives today.
I am not sure if you were implying something or not but I have been discriminated against as well but I have and will NEVER use race as a crutch. I know of the hardships stacked up against me. I was raised to never make excuses for myself and to be a strong individual. Implying otherwise was unnecessary.0 -
Hurt people...just want to hurt people....You continue being you bro! Stay strong and your heart will shine through any darkness.0
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I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
This is BS.
Also, I find it odd that black people often say they are proud to be black. If I said I am proud to be white, Id sound like a racist.
Be proud! I know I am 0 -
It's BS to say black people are more affected by racism that white people? No, don't think it is. We've been through this, Tammi put it so much better than me, but it is about refusing to be a shamed in a world that often sees you as second best. Nothin wrong in it.I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
This is BS.
Also, I find it odd that black people often say they are proud to be black. If I said I am proud to be white, Id sound like a racist.0 -
It's BS to say black people are more affected by racism that white people? No, don't think it is. We've been through this, Tammi put it so much better than me, but it is about refusing to be a shamed in a world that often sees you as second best. Nothin wrong in it.I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
This is BS.
Also, I find it odd that black people often say they are proud to be black. If I said I am proud to be white, Id sound like a racist.
I think he is talking about todays world, which I agree with him.0 -
Ooooh, so you're both saying racism against black people did happen in the past, but it is finished now?
It's BS to say black people are more affected by racism that white people? No, don't think it is. We've been through this, Tammi put it so much better than me, but it is about refusing to be a shamed in a world that often sees you as second best. Nothin wrong in it.I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
This is BS.
Also, I find it odd that black people often say they are proud to be black. If I said I am proud to be white, Id sound like a racist.
I think he is talking about todays world, which I agree with him.
Yeah, racism was WORSE in the past but it still happens on a significant level. Against people of colour not white people. That is a fact, no?0 -
As a heterosexual white male I am not allowed to promote anything.
As a heterosexual white male you have no need to.0 -
Oppression is oppression... whether it happens because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation... or something as inane as where you went to school or what your clothing size is... "White People" have been oppressed by other "white people", because of their religion or tribe they were a part of... Romans oppressed the Celts, Picts and Gaels... among many other European Tribes.... Catholics oppressed the Protestants.... in the US, it was the Native American Indians, the Irish, the Chinese and the Blacks (from both Africa and the Caribbean)... The KKK wasn't just against black people, they were against Republicans (at the time), Catholics, Jews, and homosexuals as well... People can oppress other people any time and any where. In India, it's the caste system (or at least was). In Israel, it's the Palastinians. In Muslim countries it's the non-Muslims or the smaller minority Muslim tribes (like the Kurds) and largely women (though there are some countries that are more liberal towards women). In China, it's the Tibetans. Believe it or not, to be of German decent in America during the two World Wars could find oppression as well (though admittedly to a much lesser extent than other groups)... Many Germans changed their last names (as many Jews did before them) during this time (which is why I say to a lesser extent because it's much easier to change a last name than it is a skin color). Even in the US, Japanese were placed in internment camps right here after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
My point is, oppression has been happening since the dawn of time... towards everyone at one time or another. There is always going to be people that feel they are superior than others... I just think white people are "better" at it.
Note: I say "better" loosely as whites, particularly of Roman and/or Anglo-Saxon decents (which were major conquering groups in their time of prime along with the Normans who descended from Norweigan people), have been the group that has been particularly "successful" (again loosely) in oppressing groups of people as a part of their conquering strategy... and I honestly believe that it was a trait that continued on through even the last century... It could have easily been any other people group as well.
I also want to add that I don't think oppression of any kind is right, I'm just trying to add my perspective of it all from an Anglo-Saxon perspective.
We are talking about RACIAL oppression,in a topic about being black in predominantly white,western countries.
You can't just come along and say oppression is oppression.its not.There are different forms of oppression and those differences are SO important,and can't just be glanced over like that.
White people have never been victims of racial oppression (which is the topic at hand),and in every almost every single example you listed,white people are the ones doing the oppressing.White people vs white people is not a form of racial oppression.
I feel this type of response is guilt.Like others have said before,you don't have to try and cover anything up,you are not the racists,some of your ancestors where.You just need to be aware of it and stop trying to go off track ,and realize that your privileges come as a result of that history.
oh and I put racial in caps for emphasis,i'm not angry or anything. :P
It is still oppression... you don't have to agree with me.... Putting up a sign that says "Straights" only or "Catholics" only or "(insert ANY type of demographic) only" is no different at the very core than putting up a sign that states "Whites only". And to be honest, I don't feel guilty... why feel guilt for something I haven't done nor participated in. I am merely looking at this from a historical perspective, not a personal one. I'm just telling you that "white" people aren't exempt from being oppressed from other "white" people... white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse. The Germans oppressed the Jews (who are both white but also both racially different (as Jewish people are not just a religious group, but an ethnic group that have genetic predispostions to certian disease and traits that other groups do not)) to the point of wanting to exterminate them... how is that any better than trying to doom a group of people to poverty and ignorance? Other than one is a much quicker death sentence. I'm not saying these things to merely shock, I'm saying that just because a person is white and they are being oppressed by other whites doesn't make their experience less real and less damaging because it is done by the same color of people. In the end it is all the same thing and again, that doesn't make your (or anyone elses) experiences any less real or damaging either.
I think in the end we both will just have two different perspectives and understandings on the matter because we have both had different experiences and as long as we hear those perspectives and try to empathize and understand them, then we can make some real progress between us all. Have I as a white woman felt discrimination? Sure, to a degree (I've had a professor in college, in the year 2003, that held the belief and was very public about it, that women could not and should not be in the field of physics and would berate us until we quit his class), but I get that others have felt much more discrimination and oppression than I or my family ever will.
Thats exactly my point,though.You have come to a thread about "being black",and said your are looking at it from a historical perspective,and not a personal one.Well,then your point isn't valid,at all.
Its like me as a man, going into a topic about women and their periods, and experiences with PMS,and rather than just sitting back and listening,I start listing a whole bunch irrelevant things that men go through,and saying things like "yep I understand completely,I'm just looking at from a biological perspective,we have such and such equivalent to pms"
Or going to a conference on cancer ,and saying "yeh, but what about AIDS dude,the AIDS".
Putting up a sign that says whites only vs Catholics,are both bad,I get that,but that isn't the topic we are discussing.Nobody said white people are exempt from being oppressed,we are saying, it has never happened in regards to race.We are talking about racial oppression,any other form is irrelevant when talking about race.I have used other examples only as analogies for better understanding.
your example of Jews is the same thing,whether Jews are white or not is irrelevant,the OPPRESSORS are STILL WHITE,in that case.White people have been the common denominator in most cases of Racial oppression.
"white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse" this entire sentence is a complete contradiction.How is that not better,if you can overcome something easier and faster? thats exactly what privilege is.
I'm going to step out of topic because I would like read others opinions now.You can always send me a message if you want to talk further.Although I do need a social media break for a while haha.
I really don't like to get into these types of debates. My only issue here is, that you really can't argue that it is "white people" mostly doing it. Slavery comes from the word Slovac, and it has been around for centuries, Oppersion has always existed, The people whom are in power have always oppressed the minority, whether it be, Africa (Slavery still exists there today) Asia (Sex Slaves are a big business there and often the battle between asian cultures Particularly China and Japan has resulted in slavery of some form) The Middle East where women are oppressed and certain religious sects, either it be Sunnin or ****e and Christian.
My point is that the people whom are in power are the oppressors, no matter the color.0 -
Ooooh, so you're both saying racism against black people did happen in the past, but it is finished now?
It's BS to say black people are more affected by racism that white people? No, don't think it is. We've been through this, Tammi put it so much better than me, but it is about refusing to be a shamed in a world that often sees you as second best. Nothin wrong in it.I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
This is BS.
Also, I find it odd that black people often say they are proud to be black. If I said I am proud to be white, Id sound like a racist.
I think he is talking about todays world, which I agree with him.
Yeah, racism was WORSE in the past but it still happens on a significant level. Against people of colour not white people. That is a fact, no?
Racism does well indeed still exist, but don't act like blacks aren't racist toward white people. Racism exists in all races. Thats all that I am saying.0 -
I don't think blacks can oppress white people in the same way as the other way round, because white people still have the balance of power on their side in the wider social context. A black person can discriminate against a white person though. I suppose it depends on whether we are defining racism as needing that imbalance of power or not.
"When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don't get to define the terms of your existence, they can't limit your opportunities, and you needn't worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it's going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right." Tim Wise, a (white) anti racism activist.
Even if one black banker turned the white person for racist reasons, they could just go to the very next bank.
I'm not saying white people are bad or black people are saintly or anything.0 -
Wouldn't you only get denied for a loan if your credit was bad/didn't make enough money?
I work for a huge company that has all kinds of people. Everybody is treated fairly for the most part. I have a black manager and I did have a black partner. My partner got so much credit and I pretty much carried him, but in my opinion our manager (since he was black) was helping him out. Racism is ugly and sadly it exists.0 -
I don't think blacks can oppress white people in the same way as the other way round, because white people still have the balance of power on their side in the wider social context. A black person can discriminate against a white person though. I suppose it depends on whether we are defining racism as needing that imbalance of power or not.
"When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don't get to define the terms of your existence, they can't limit your opportunities, and you needn't worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it's going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right." Tim Wise, a (white) anti racism activist.
Even if one black banker turned the white person for racist reasons, they could just go to the very next bank.
I'm not saying white people are bad or black people are saintly or anything.
I'd say individuals can be racists (not matter their race) and groups can be oppressive. Certainly there are black people who are racists. That comes down to personal belief. But, yes, that individual's personal belief is not nearly as powerful as a group of people with power deliberately holding down another group based on skin color or nationality or whatever.
But I don't think being black and hating white people because they're white is a very constructive solution to the wider problem.0 -
your example of Jews is the same thing,whether Jews are white or not is irrelevant,the OPPRESSORS are STILL WHITE,in that case. White people have been the common denominator in most cases of Racial oppression.
The (UK) law disagrees with you. Jews constitute an ethnic group under the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Public Order Act 1986. They are a race. That makes the historical genocide a 'racial' issue. The fact that the perpetrators were also white is what's not of relevance here.
Also I think your analogies regarding "men discussing PMS" are limping a little. My gynaecologist, for starters, is male.0 -
I haven't read all of the replies yet (I need to leave), but I just wanted to say to be proud of who you are. If someone says you aren't "acting" this way or that, I would just say "It's true I'm not "acting", I'm just being me."
Be yourself and try not to put too much focus on what others "think" about how you behave. That is what keeps us all individuals! They are friends with you for a reason. They must like how you act or they wouldn't be friends.0 -
I don't think blacks can oppress white people in the same way as the other way round, because white people still have the balance of power on their side in the wider social context. A black person can discriminate against a white person though. I suppose it depends on whether we are defining racism as needing that imbalance of power or not.
"When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don't get to define the terms of your existence, they can't limit your opportunities, and you needn't worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it's going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right." Tim Wise, a (white) anti racism activist.
Even if one black banker turned the white person for racist reasons, they could just go to the very next bank.
I'm not saying white people are bad or black people are saintly or anything.
Yes, they can. Have you seen the situation in SA when apartheid was ended and black people got power? Do you know what happened to the white people there? And still does? But when it's mentioned, it's the 'white people's fault', even if they're innocent.
No. White people don't necessarily have the power in a social context. That is subjective, that is dependent on your perspective and the society. Society is fluid and ever changing. Not every person thinks the same way.
It's not hard to understand, a black person CAN be racist against a white person. Any freakin' race can be racist to another race.
rac·ism
[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
To address number 1. - anybody can believe their race is superior/has the right to rule others. That is a belief. Anyone can hold it.
2. White people are not and have not been the only people in power. There are black Governments, and they can, and have, discriminated against other colours. Same goes for policies or systems.
3. Anybody can hate or be intolerant of another race/s.
There you go.
Instutional racism is a type of racism, but not the only one. And, yes, believe it or not, there are many many white people whose lives HAVE been affected by racism. It's not hard to believe or understand.
My life has been affected by racism, and do you know what? Not by whites.0 -
Oppression is oppression... whether it happens because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation... or something as inane as where you went to school or what your clothing size is... "White People" have been oppressed by other "white people", because of their religion or tribe they were a part of... Romans oppressed the Celts, Picts and Gaels... among many other European Tribes.... Catholics oppressed the Protestants.... in the US, it was the Native American Indians, the Irish, the Chinese and the Blacks (from both Africa and the Caribbean)... The KKK wasn't just against black people, they were against Republicans (at the time), Catholics, Jews, and homosexuals as well... People can oppress other people any time and any where. In India, it's the caste system (or at least was). In Israel, it's the Palastinians. In Muslim countries it's the non-Muslims or the smaller minority Muslim tribes (like the Kurds) and largely women (though there are some countries that are more liberal towards women). In China, it's the Tibetans. Believe it or not, to be of German decent in America during the two World Wars could find oppression as well (though admittedly to a much lesser extent than other groups)... Many Germans changed their last names (as many Jews did before them) during this time (which is why I say to a lesser extent because it's much easier to change a last name than it is a skin color). Even in the US, Japanese were placed in internment camps right here after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
My point is, oppression has been happening since the dawn of time... towards everyone at one time or another. There is always going to be people that feel they are superior than others... I just think white people are "better" at it.
Note: I say "better" loosely as whites, particularly of Roman and/or Anglo-Saxon decents (which were major conquering groups in their time of prime along with the Normans who descended from Norweigan people), have been the group that has been particularly "successful" (again loosely) in oppressing groups of people as a part of their conquering strategy... and I honestly believe that it was a trait that continued on through even the last century... It could have easily been any other people group as well.
I also want to add that I don't think oppression of any kind is right, I'm just trying to add my perspective of it all from an Anglo-Saxon perspective.
We are talking about RACIAL oppression,in a topic about being black in predominantly white,western countries.
You can't just come along and say oppression is oppression.its not.There are different forms of oppression and those differences are SO important,and can't just be glanced over like that.
White people have never been victims of racial oppression (which is the topic at hand),and in every almost every single example you listed,white people are the ones doing the oppressing.White people vs white people is not a form of racial oppression.
I feel this type of response is guilt.Like others have said before,you don't have to try and cover anything up,you are not the racists,some of your ancestors where.You just need to be aware of it and stop trying to go off track ,and realize that your privileges come as a result of that history.
oh and I put racial in caps for emphasis,i'm not angry or anything. :P
It is still oppression... you don't have to agree with me.... Putting up a sign that says "Straights" only or "Catholics" only or "(insert ANY type of demographic) only" is no different at the very core than putting up a sign that states "Whites only". And to be honest, I don't feel guilty... why feel guilt for something I haven't done nor participated in. I am merely looking at this from a historical perspective, not a personal one. I'm just telling you that "white" people aren't exempt from being oppressed from other "white" people... white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse. The Germans oppressed the Jews (who are both white but also both racially different (as Jewish people are not just a religious group, but an ethnic group that have genetic predispostions to certian disease and traits that other groups do not)) to the point of wanting to exterminate them... how is that any better than trying to doom a group of people to poverty and ignorance? Other than one is a much quicker death sentence. I'm not saying these things to merely shock, I'm saying that just because a person is white and they are being oppressed by other whites doesn't make their experience less real and less damaging because it is done by the same color of people. In the end it is all the same thing and again, that doesn't make your (or anyone elses) experiences any less real or damaging either.
I think in the end we both will just have two different perspectives and understandings on the matter because we have both had different experiences and as long as we hear those perspectives and try to empathize and understand them, then we can make some real progress between us all. Have I as a white woman felt discrimination? Sure, to a degree (I've had a professor in college, in the year 2003, that held the belief and was very public about it, that women could not and should not be in the field of physics and would berate us until we quit his class), but I get that others have felt much more discrimination and oppression than I or my family ever will.
Thats exactly my point,though.You have come to a thread about "being black",and said your are looking at it from a historical perspective,and not a personal one.Well,then your point isn't valid,at all.
Its like me as a man, going into a topic about women and their periods, and experiences with PMS,and rather than just sitting back and listening,I start listing a whole bunch irrelevant things that men go through,and saying things like "yep I understand completely,I'm just looking at from a biological perspective,we have such and such equivalent to pms"
Or going to a conference on cancer ,and saying "yeh, but what about AIDS dude,the AIDS".
Putting up a sign that says whites only vs Catholics,are both bad,I get that,but that isn't the topic we are discussing.Nobody said white people are exempt from being oppressed,we are saying, it has never happened in regards to race.We are talking about racial oppression,any other form is irrelevant when talking about race.I have used other examples only as analogies for better understanding.
your example of Jews is the same thing,whether Jews are white or not is irrelevant,the OPPRESSORS are STILL WHITE,in that case.White people have been the common denominator in most cases of Racial oppression.
"white people may be able to overcome it easier and faster than other ethnicities because they have the same skin tone, but I don't believe it's any better or worse" this entire sentence is a complete contradiction.How is that not better,if you can overcome something easier and faster? thats exactly what privilege is.
I'm going to step out of topic because I would like read others opinions now.You can always send me a message if you want to talk further.Although I do need a social media break for a while haha.
I really don't like to get into these types of debates. My only issue here is, that you really can't argue that it is "white people" mostly doing it. Slavery comes from the word Slovac, and it has been around for centuries, Oppersion has always existed, The people whom are in power have always oppressed the minority, whether it be, Africa (Slavery still exists there today) Asia (Sex Slaves are a big business there and often the battle between asian cultures Particularly China and Japan has resulted in slavery of some form) The Middle East where women are oppressed and certain religious sects, either it be Sunnin or ****e and Christian.
My point is that the people whom are in power are the oppressors, no matter the color.
^0 -
Agreed!!If you're a good human who cares what color your skin pigmentation happens to be.0 -
I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
No. You can't say that. You can't assume [X] is more affected by [Y] than a racism, simply because one is black and one is white. You can not tell somebody how they are affected, or try to compare it only using race as a marker. Everybody is affected by things differently, no matter how big or small.0 -
As a heterosexual white male I am not allowed to promote anything.
As a heterosexual white male you have no need to.
Says who?0 -
I'm with Britlocs on this one. Kara xx mentions if a black family don't want their daughter dating a white guy, is it exactly equivilant to the reverse situation.
I think...... white people can be discriminated against for their race (it diesn't happen often, but I am not saying never) as can straight people, men, whatever. But oppression is about power. So a black person can't reall, to my mind, oppress a white person. They could treat them badly for their race and call them a bad term, but it is not the same racism and oppression because the larger power balance in society. That is said, it would still be NASTY and I am not saying it is right, just like, not racial oppression.
'Privilege' is about society being set up in a particular groups favour generally. Most of us are privileged in some ways and not in others. Eg. I am male and not disabled so I have privilege with that. I am not that dark skinned so I have privilege compared to darker black people. Like, for example I need to be aware that if I am at work and someone comes in the shop, they might think I am the boss because i am the only man, because that is a male privilege thing. I can't stop people's assumptions like that but I can ensure I interact with my female colleagues in a way that does not reinforce and inbalance of power. People get upset talking about this because they think privilege is an accusation that you are personally racist (homophobic, sexist, ablist etc). It isn't- the VAST majority of white people I ever met are not racist, in fact most are very aware and informed, like no ignorant. But that does not negate privilege. Acknowledging privilege makes you LESS oppressive not more, like the example i gave above.
This discussion was kind of started about questioning my black identity- I know colour blindness is seen as a real virtue but I want to be able to learn about and idneitify withnthat part of myself. It is a part of me. Not my entire self. I don't see why it has to be ignoring it entirely (impossible anyways, i'd say) or entirely defining myself by it. I said it before, and I say it again, white people don't tend to get defined by their race, it is like the default anyways so not relevant. When part of your culture is not always represented or represented positively in the world, sometimes you need to make an effort to engage with it, and thatb is what I mean by talking about blackness. It is not about defining myself only by that.
I probably sounded way chippy there, I didn't mean to!!
xxxxx
Where I live, white people are defined by their race. They are singled out. I have got teased, called bad names, people have made comments because I am half white. People have said the most f*cking racist **** about white people in front of me, then turned on me when I got offended. People have tried to dictate my identity and tell me who -I- am because they believe in the ODR. People have called me racist names, and my own Mother has called me a half breed more than once.
Like I said, perspective. Don't assume things are easier on some because of the norm. It may be the standard in society that ethnic minorities and women are the only victims, but it's not always the case.0 -
I see some discussions about racism against whites.
Racism is racism, dudes. Nobody can say one demographic is more or less affected than one other. And I don't think we should be blaming white people for anything any more than we should be blaming black people for anything.
I would say that some demographics are affected more than others as victims of racism- white people aren't victims as often or usually as powerfully as people of colour. I don' think blaming or guilt tripping or playing victim/aggressor is the way though, it is about working together everyone to a society that will benefit us all, through equality and justice
If white parents give their white daughter grief for falling in love with a black man we would say they're racist, right?
So if black parents give their black daughter grief because she falls in love with a white man, why is that not racist?
Because according to previous logic racism is something that only the 'oppressing' white social group is capable of?
I don't think so.
Racism is the result of ignorance, which exists in all races.
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Racism can definitely flow in any direction. However, the difference is that the white man has not been as crippled by it as the minorities have. Thus it seems a bit hypocritical of them to call racism when they have been the ones oppressing others for centuries. Yeah they might face a bit of trouble today but, honestly, that’s not too bad in comparison.
Ummmmmm about the comment that said that the white man can’t support any “agenda” I’m not sure if I’m misinterpreting this or not so I’m not going to address that.
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that because "the man" was predominantly racist back in the day that now any white man loses their right to claiming that they are being discriminated against? This is what I mean when I said that “discrimination flows both ways” (and I hope you don't take this the wrong way Tammi) but this mindset is what begets discrimination of any type and any capacity.
I think we need to shed that type of mentality and simply strive to better ourselves and quit making a crutch out of the discrimination card. And yes, I’ve been discriminated against…I’m not one to sit there and make myself out to be a martyr, I’ll just prove them wrong by being successful.
^0 -
Be yourself!! Find people who you like to be with and enjoy yourself. If I was to try to be like the white people around me, I would be a hillbilly living in a trailer park, cooking meth. Of course thats just a stereotypical view, because they arent all like that, but yo get my point. I am also a Christian, and people nowadays dont like us much, but I want to be the person that God made me to be, no matter what any one else thinks. God bless you and I hope you find yourself!! 0
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I hate reading posts like this..takes me back to high school when my class put on a black history month program and there were negative comments from white people such as "the indoctrination is in effect." My school was pretty much half black/half white & it was in the country, so there were a bunch of self-proclaimed rednecks who never explored any type of diversity...It just became annoying..pretty much as I've seen so far in my menial 18 years of life: Whites want blacks to get over slavery and racism, blacks want whites to get that racism still exists and always will(which is true, the KKK has come through my neighborhood and slashed my aunt's tires...also spray painted "N|GGER" on my school building)...etc..and stuff like this sucks, debates like these suck because they'll never be resolved. EVER. But all in all, like..just live life and be you, you just can't please everybody, ever.0
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