Women and Body Shaming

BinaryPulsar

^^^I like that MireyGal!!!

Oops, I got bumped over to the next page.

Thanks hun! You're pretty freakin awesome yourself!!

crisanderson27

"Oh, and anyone who thinks men aren't held up to a STUPIDLY huge amount of expectations, requirements, and standards, needs to go make a male profile on an online dating site."

Men have unfair double standards and expectations, for sure. They may be more subtle in some cases (for instance, you suggest going to a dating site, whereas to find tons of examples of ridiculous expectations for women, you can just go to the supermarket and find them in a 20:1 ratio. 99% of all numbers on the internet are made up.) My pet peeve on this are: we can make jokes about hitting or killing men (I don't think the answer is making these jokes fair game on women, just doing away with them), men are expected to pay on the first date.

But on the women body shaming, I believe it comes from really mixed messages to everyone about what is expected of them. Men are told to be respectful of women while societal messages are that real men are overly invested in female sex characteristics. Women are taught not to be ashamed of puberty while being taught to cover it up while at the same time societal messages imply that you won't catch the eye of a mate without flaunting it a bit and edging out your competition.

Most eventually mature out of this and realize that men don't have to be rude or degrading to be masculine, and women don't have to exhaust themselves trying to fit a double bind. But it can cause a lot of pain and heartache and for people who don't come close to fitting the mold of "ideal" it can take a lot more time and effort.

The single most telling flaw in your entire argument is that this is somehow the fault of 'society'. What is 'society' anyhow? Basically what it boils down to is the views of the majority. Yes media plays a part but where you and I disagree is that they are pushing something the majority doesn't want, yet somehow, it's affecting a majority of people negatively. Look at it like this, if their sales pitches didn't work on as many people as possible (i.e. the 'majority'), they would be changed! What this means, is that there is a factor of 'reality' to their 'unreal' advertisements. The way I see this is very difficult to explain, because it's complicated.

Basically what it boils down to is that 'society' is the majority, and they like what they like. This is REALITY. If you don't fit that, you need to come to terms with it yourself, find your own beauty, your own worth. Anything other than that...is infringing on OTHER PEOPLE'S right to their OWN opinion! Now, this does NOT mean others have the right to be rude! This does NOT mean to belittle people outside your range of preference!! But you can bet your *kitten* if someone asks me my opinion on body types, the middle of that range is going to be from bellemorte to mireygal. This does NOT mean other body types don't attract me, or anyone that doesn't have that particular range of body type is worthless. It also doesn't mean I couldn't love, and adore another body type on a girl. It just means it's MY PREFERENCE! For example...I didn't vote for Obama, I think he's a moron, but the majority of people concentrated in some very densely populated areas did. I have to deal with that! I don't believe that those that did are worthless, some of my best friends did. That's simple REALITY!! And coming to terms with it in every aspect of your existence is pretty central to a decent quality of life.

And that, is shaming NO one.

(ETA ~ Your comment about me having to use dating sites as an example was also flawed...it's simply a very easy one anyone can step into and see for themselves).

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it... but isn't this a matter of just being respectful to one another?

I'm very tall (6'1") and muscular. I have some curves, but am not overly 'curvy' (I tend to lean toward a more boxy frame. THAT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. (Well, the muscles may fade in time - though I hope not!)

There are men who simply would NOT want to date me. They may not like my height, or may want someone softer and with less musculature. Maybe they prefer redheads over blondes. That is their right to feel that way.

There are women who wouldn't want to look like me. Some would think my physique is unattractive. But that's ok. That is THEIR viewpoint and they are entitled to it.

All I ask is that we treat each other with respect. Respectful behavior chooses not to say things like
- you're manly
- I'd never date a sasquatch
- you're too tall
- muscles are gross.

I'm entitled to my opinion, you are entitled to yours. If you ask me mine, I will provide it, but will attempt to do so in a way that does not MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE INADEQUATE. All I ask is the same in return.

That's where the body shaming comes in.

There are people here who WANT to lose weight, who want to change. That is their desire, and they're working on it. They may not be happy with every aspect of their physical bodies. Some of us hurt when others tear down the areas that people see as flawed.

I support each person's right to change, and I support each person's right to stay the same. In my mind... a person is to be valued by their heart and soul and spirit. Not their weight, stature or size. We shouldn't need surgical intervention in order to feel good about ourselves, but if someone chooses to do it, then all the power to them.

Basically, all I ask is that we TRY to remember that people are sensitive creatures, and that kindness goes a long way...
We should be ok if we do that.

you Miss Mirey! You covered it perfectly!

FlaxMilk

The single most telling flaw in your entire argument is that this is somehow the fault of 'society'. What is 'society' anyhow? Basically what it boils down to is the views of the majority. Yes media plays a part but where you and I disagree is that they are pushing something the majority doesn't want, yet somehow, it's affecting a majority of people negatively. Look at it like this, if their sales pitches didn't work on as many people as possible (i.e. the 'majority'), they would be changed! What this means, is that there is a factor of 'reality' to their 'unreal' advertisements. The way I see this is very difficult to explain, because it's complicated.

Basically what it boils down to is that 'society' is the majority, and they like what they like. This is REALITY. If you don't fit that, you need to come to terms with it yourself, find your own beauty, your own worth. Anything other than that...is infringing on OTHER PEOPLE'S right to their OWN opinion! Now, this does NOT mean others have the right to be rude! This does NOT mean to belittle people outside your range of preference!! But you can bet your *kitten* if someone asks me my opinion on body types, the middle of that range is going to be from bellemorte to mireygal. This does NOT mean other body types don't attract me, or anyone that doesn't have that particular range of body type is worthless. It also doesn't mean I couldn't love, and adore another body type on a girl. It just means it's MY PREFERENCE! For example...I didn't vote for Obama, I think he's a moron, but the majority of people concentrated in some very densely populated areas did. I have to deal with that! I don't believe that those that did are worthless, some of my best friends did. That's simple REALITY!! And coming to terms with it in every aspect of your existence is pretty central to a decent quality of life.

And that, is shaming NO one.

(ETA ~ Your comment about me having to use dating sites as an example was also flawed...it's simply a very easy one anyone can step into and see for themselves).

I'm pretty sure you're reading something into what I said that isn't there. I don't care what other peoples' attraction preferences are. I am referring to true body shaming--insulting, rudeness, belittling. My own views on who is attractive don't seem to fit with what appears to be popular opinion. (As an easy example, I'm one of the few that would apparently want to be or choose the woman "on the left" from that other thread.) I'm not going to get into a sociology debate with you on society and the majority, because I stand by what I said and don't feel the need to clarify it. Both men and women receive mixed messages from society, which includes the media, our parents, our schools, our religions, and the everyday people around us.

I similarly stand by my comment on your dating site example, though you may think it is flawed. I understand you went for an easy example. The example doesn't support an equal level of expectations, whether placed through society or individuals. But we are only talking about one aspect of society. As I said, I do believe that men are held up to some ridiculous expectations. We may not find the evidence of that in the same places because they aren't always in the same areas. (I think it's ridiculous that a man who chooses to stay home with the children while his wife works would be seen as a freeloader or a loser. But you aren't going to find that splashed all over the cover of 10 magazines in the supermarket. But you'll find out pretty quickly if you happen to be the family that has this setup.)

cm1458

THIS... Made my day! :bigsmile:

FlaxMilk

My tl;dr: Society is made up of people, and people by nature are made up of conflicting beliefs and feelings, even in oneself. It's impossible to not have mixed messages floating around in society, and people have to learn how to deal with these messages as they mature. Body shaming can be done by others, but it can also be done to oneself. True body shaming is not about attraction or preferences.

BinaryPulsar

My tl;dr: Society is made up of people, and people by nature are made up of conflicting beliefs and feelings, even in oneself. It's impossible to not have mixed messages floating around in society, and people have to learn how to deal with these messages as they mature. Body shaming can be done by others, but it can also be done to oneself. True body shaming is not about attraction or preferences.

Yes, I agree!

Nataliaho

At the end of the day, so much of this would be solved if people just tried to be nice to one another. It might sound trite but it is the truth. How about a little kindness and empathy. Would you like someone to say it about your mother? Then don't f@$cling say it... easy really.

I get a little annoyed when these discussions always turn to it being a woman's redponsibility to have a thick skin. I'm a pretty confident and outgoing woman, my self-esteem is pretty high, that doesn't mean a guy isn't a rude loser when he decides to randomly comment on the undesirability of my appearance. Surely it's easier for someone to just keep that *kitten* to themselves than for me to smile on through?

BinaryPulsar

At the end of the day, so much of this would be solved if people just tried to be nice to one another. It might sound trite but it is the truth. How about a little kindness and empathy. Would you like someone to say it about your mother? Then don't f@$cling say it... easy really.

I get a little annoyed when these discussions always turn to it being a woman's redponsibility to have a thick skin. I'm a pretty confident and outgoing woman, my self-esteem is pretty high, that doesn't mean a guy isn't a rude loser when he decides to randomly comment on the undesirability of my appearance. Surely it's easier for someone to just keep that *kitten* to themselves than for me to smile on through?

Well, I agree with you 100% here. Possibly I misunderstood you on another thread (sorry about that if I did).

rosesigil

I feel far more body shame from mens' comments and actions than I ever have from women. Because I'm not stupid and can read between the lines. You can say "Oh you're beautiful just the way you are" all day but I still see the women that make the covers of men's magazines and the ones that turn heads the most and I know I'll never ever look even remotely close to that while still eating solid food. Men's reactions to me have shaped my body image, not women. And that's the damn truth.

Same here. My women friends have always liked me, fat or thin. Most of my close friends I met in college, a women's college, so maybe we were more "consciousness raised," and caring towarsd each other. Boyfriends, not so nice. More than a few times afteer gaining weight whike in a relationship (that happens) I was dumped. Sometimes, after I lost the weight again, an wx would want me back--can you imagine???? Hey--I'm the same dang person!

Dani_wants_to_be_fit

I will never understand why you do it to eachother. It is an awful behaviour perpetuated largely by the media and happily engaged in by a huge number of people. If you have ever said any variation of:

- “Men like meat. Bones are for dogs.”
- “Real women have curves.”
- “That girl looks manly.”

Or anything of the sort, please GTFO and never come back. What makes a woman a woman is her own determination of her gender and nothing more.

It doesn't matter if a lady is skinny, slender, average, athletic, curvy, plump, voluptuous or any other variation of shape and size. They (and me) are all women and beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. Face it, if we all looked the same, things would get boring

celshade

No matter what someone looks like, they're someone's type.

To me, this is what stops me from being catty.

NormalSaneFLGuy

Tldr any of it, but I will say this:

I'm fat. I've never had a girl snub me cuz of my size or had someone call me names, insult my level of fitness, or reference my weight in any negative light. Other than my own self image, I've really never had any pressures or criticism on my appearance.

My sister, she was fat. She has had all of the above repeatedly. My sister did an amazing job and lost nearly a hundred pounds recently. She is getting in great shape and you know what, she still is getting all that same b.s. criticism.

Interpret that how you like.

Nataliaho

Tldr any of it, but I will say this:

I'm fat. I've never had a girl snub me cuz of my size or had someone call me names, insult my level of fitness, or reference my weight in any negative light. Other than my own self image, I've really never had any pressures or criticism on my appearance.

My sister, she was fat. She has had all of the above repeatedly. My sister did an amazing job and lost nearly a hundred pounds recently. She is getting in great shape and you know what, she still is getting all that same b.s. criticism.

Interpret that how you like.

So totally true. The men in my family are popular for their size (including chub) and strength. In my small home town another boy being born into my family means another future front-rower in the footy team. For me it just meant a lifetime of being *kitten* on, even though I was equally good at sport.

hesn92

I agree. I'm so sick of hearing women say things like that about each other. Grow up you nasty biches.

crisanderson27

My tl;dr: Society is made up of people, and people by nature are made up of conflicting beliefs and feelings, even in oneself. It's impossible to not have mixed messages floating around in society, and people have to learn how to deal with these messages as they mature. Body shaming can be done by others, but it can also be done to oneself. True body shaming is not about attraction or preferences.

I agree with much that you said before. The things I disagreed on were the ones where it seemed you were putting out conflicting messages.

The above quote though? Agree 150%. I don't think since the first year of high school that I've truly been put down by anyone but those I've loved most (my choice of romantic partners has seen better days lol). It hurt...but I knew the things said stemmed from their own self loathing. Keep in mind also...pre-and just starting hs...i was 4'11", 120lbs, no muscle...with huge glasses, an afro of hair (I'm white)...and a level of intelligence that made me despised. I know far...far more than most about shaming.

Anyhow...since high school...the only real shame I've felt...was self generated. And that very rarely.

crisanderson27

At the end of the day, so much of this would be solved if people just tried to be nice to one another. It might sound trite but it is the truth. How about a little kindness and empathy. Would you like someone to say it about your mother? Then don't f@$cling say it... easy really.

I get a little annoyed when these discussions always turn to it being a woman's redponsibility to have a thick skin. I'm a pretty confident and outgoing woman, my self-esteem is pretty high, that doesn't mean a guy isn't a rude loser when he decides to randomly comment on the undesirability of my appearance. Surely it's easier for someone to just keep that *kitten* to themselves than for me to smile on through?

Agreed hun.

MireyGal76

My tl;dr: Society is made up of people, and people by nature are made up of conflicting beliefs and feelings, even in oneself. It's impossible to not have mixed messages floating around in society, and people have to learn how to deal with these messages as they mature. Body shaming can be done by others, but it can also be done to oneself. True body shaming is not about attraction or preferences.

I agree with much that you said before. The things I disagreed on were the ones where it seemed you were putting out conflicting messages.

The above quote though? Agree 150%. I don't think since the first year of high school that I've truly been put down by anyone but those I've loved most (my choice of romantic partners has seen better days lol). It hurt...but I knew the things said stemmed from their own self loathing. Keep in mind also...pre-and just starting hs...i was 4'11", 120lbs, no muscle...with huge glasses, an afro of hair (I'm white)...and a level of intelligence that made me despised. I know far...far more than most about shaming.

Anyhow...since high school...the only real shame I've felt...was self generated. And that very rarely.

I am my biggest body shamer. I have picked myself to so many pieces and said things to myself that no one would dare utter.
I don't need others picking me apart - I destroy myself well enough on my own.

But I'm getting better, and healthier, and stronger.

The thing is, every time you shame someone for something they often cannot change, it's like heaping another rock on their backs. But the problem is that unbeknownst to you, they often already bear a burden you cannot even imagine.

The flaming responses that come out when people make inflammatory statements, are due to the recipient collapsing under that seemingly innocent statement... that was the final rock on their back.

So many of us carry so much internal pain. Hell, many of us are on this site because of eating disorders, unhealthy eating habits, or pure inactivity which has wreaked havoc on our bodies and psyche. We have enough burdens to bear on our own and we need to learn how to unload those rocks in a healthy way.

BinaryPulsar

Wow, Mirey, I relate to that so much!!! I look back and can now see how hard I was on myself when I was younger. I just wish I could stop being hard on myself now. I'm working on it and I think I am getting better. Taking care of myself with just the basic self-love that is needed.

ironanimal

At the end of the day, so much of this would be solved if people just tried to be nice to one another. It might sound trite but it is the truth. How about a little kindness and empathy. Would you like someone to say it about your mother? Then don't f@$cling say it... easy really.

I get a little annoyed when these discussions always turn to it being a woman's responsibility to have a thick skin. I'm a pretty confident and outgoing woman, my self-esteem is pretty high, that doesn't mean a guy isn't a rude loser when he decides to randomly comment on the undesirability of my appearance. Surely it's easier for someone to just keep that *kitten* to themselves than for me to smile on through?

Emphasis on the bold parts. If you dislike another person's body for whatever reason - whether it not be your taste, or it makes you a little self-conscious (which btw would be less of an issue if nobody picked eachother apart) - do you really need to tell them they're gross, lazy, have no curves etc? Can't you just say "not for me"?

fcp1234

Why do you care anyway?