Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?

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  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    How on earth does THAT work??
    Say a man cheated on his wife. She believes he did. He emphatically denies it. Eventually she believes him. Their marriage is fine. He then falls to a terminal illness. Right before he dies, he tells her he cheated.

    Now do you think that telling her the truth made her feel good or worse about herself the rest of her life because he confessed at death?

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    *sigh* Your "analogy" is not at all a good one. You forget that these men were believing Jews who would be risking their eternal souls to insist on something that, if it wasn't true, would be blaspheming God in a terrible way. Yet, they all maintained the truth of it until their martyrdom.
    So the story about an apostle lying about knowing jesus wasn't true?:laugh:

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  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    My understanding is that all three faiths believe in the Patriarchs (Abraham, Moses etc.). It's Jesus who throws them into a conundrum.

    Precisely. However, since Jesus is a core figure of one (Christianity), and a relatively important figure in another (Islam), it's kind of hard to see how this difference could be reconciled. The core issue with any religion is that there are so many, which one is correct in it's methods of salvation? While one could view this from the outside as a relatively minor detail, I am pretty sure that it would be a pretty damned important consideration for anyone not wanting to spend an eternity in Hell, assuming that the afterlife exists.

    The monotheisms' 'my way or the highway' attitude is the real problem. If the God of the monotheisms does exist, he certainly has a pretty sick sense of humor when you are talking about gambling with the souls of billions upon billions of individuals. I could grasp it a bit more if it were all about 'living a good life', but it's not. That's only part of the equation. You still only have a theoretical 33.33333~% chance of getting it right, so to speak.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    Likewise, only God can turn a heart.
    So then free will is tossed out?
    Relatively speaking, this god is supposedly omnipotent and omnipresent so apparently he knows everyone's outcome. If anything happens (since the outcome is already forseen) then whatever path we're taking is the one we're suppose to take right?

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  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    My understanding is that all three faiths believe in the Patriarchs (Abraham, Moses etc.). It's Jesus who throws them into a conundrum.

    Precisely. However, since Jesus is a core figure of one (Christianity), and a relatively important figure in another (Islam), it's kind of hard to see how this difference could be reconciled. The core issue with any religion is that there are so many, which one is correct in it's methods of salvation? While one could view this from the outside as a relatively minor detail, I am pretty sure that it would be a pretty damned important consideration for anyone not wanting to spend an eternity in Hell, assuming that the afterlife exists.

    The monotheisms' 'my way or the highway' attitude is the real problem. If the God of the monotheisms does exist, he certainly has a pretty sick sense of humor when you are talking about gambling with the souls of billions upon billions of individuals. I could grasp it a bit more if it were all about 'living a good life', but it's not. That's only part of the equation. You still only have a theoretical 33.33333~% chance of getting it right, so to speak.
    Bravo to this.

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  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
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    Likewise, only God can turn a heart.
    So then free will is tossed out?
    Relatively speaking, this god is supposedly omnipotent and omnipresent so apparently he knows everyone's outcome. If anything happens (since the outcome is already forseen) then whatever path we're taking is the one we're suppose to take right?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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    Ah, now we're getting into Calvanism and there is a difference of opinion even amongs Christians who believe in salvation through Jesus' death on the cross: once saved always saved or can you lose your salvation?
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
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    Likewise, only God can turn a heart.
    So then free will is tossed out?
    Relatively speaking, this god is supposedly omnipotent and omnipresent so apparently he knows everyone's outcome. If anything happens (since the outcome is already forseen) then whatever path we're taking is the one we're suppose to take right?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Another quandary: free will vs. predestination
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    Ah, now we're getting into Calvanism and there is a difference of opinion even amongs Christians who believe in salvation through Jesus' death on the cross: once saved always saved or can you lose your salvation?

    Therein lies another problem. If even the proponents of a system can't agree upon how it works, how can anyone be certain that any of it is right, and not just people scrambling for anything they can cobble together to attempt to save face? Misinterpretation is one thing, but what we have these days far exceeds a little 'oops, I read that wrong'.
  • ChelseaYepThatsMe
    ChelseaYepThatsMe Posts: 457
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    jpicsexiaduvysym3hmm.gif
    my thoughts exactly
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    jpicsexiaduvysym3hmm.gif
    my thoughts exactly

    You thought wrooooong. ;)
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    From just a few posts up.
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
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    Ah, now we're getting into Calvanism and there is a difference of opinion even amongs Christians who believe in salvation through Jesus' death on the cross: once saved always saved or can you lose your salvation?

    Therein lies another problem. If even the proponents of a system can't agree upon how it works, how can anyone be certain that any of it is right, and not just people scrambling for anything they can cobble together to attempt to save face? Misinterpretation is one thing, but what we have these days far exceeds a little 'oops, I read that wrong'.

    I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
    It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
    He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
    Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

    I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

    I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

    This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..:wink:
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
    It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
    He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
    Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

    I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

    I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

    This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..:wink:

    Actually, what you just provided is better than the "proof" that most offer up. You don't sound like you are trying to convince anyone of anything, which says to me that you hold your faith without feeling required to justify it. To be quite honest, I think you are the first person who has told me that they feel that God wishes to be questioned. Many stick to the same old "God will not be tested" wall, and quite frankly, that wouldn't make any sense, given that if we were indeed created by Him, He would HAVE to know that it was going to come to this point eventually.

    The funny thing is that, explaining God in a personified manner, as you just did, would have gotten you racked and burned in the not too distant past. However, maybe that's what the monotheisms have been missing all along.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
    It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
    He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
    Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

    I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

    I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

    This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..:wink:
    What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?

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  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
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    Also, picking up our discussion from a couple days ago.
    We did not have our daughter water baptized as an infant, since she could not obviously make that choice on her own.
    Rather we dedicated her, meaning we would raise her according to our beliefs.
    Hang on, there's more!
    We also believe that when she is old enough to decide, she can choose to get water baptized to announce her beliefs publicly and that she would need to decide what she believed and have her own faith apart from us.
    So, in that way, I don't believe we hammered it onto her head.
    It is ultimately her choice.

    I have an early day in the morning with the aforementioned girl, so ta ta for now...
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    Also, picking up our discussion from a couple days ago.
    We did not have our daughter water baptized as an infant, since she could not obviously make that choice on her own.
    Rather we dedicated her, meaning we would raise her according to our beliefs.
    Hang on, there's more!
    We also believe that when she is old enough to decide, she can choose to get water baptized to announce her beliefs publicly and that she would need to decide what she believed and have her own faith apart from us.
    So, in that way, I don't believe we hammered it onto her head.
    It is ultimately her choice.

    I have an early day in the morning with the aforementioned girl, so ta ta for now...

    Have a good evening.
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
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    I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
    It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
    He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
    Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

    I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

    I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

    This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..:wink:
    What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Good question. We believe in an age of accountability (as I alluded to in my last past) when I child is old enough to grasp the tenets of our faith and either accept or reject them.
    Therefore, infants go straight to heaven along with people with severe developmental disabilities etc.
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
    Options
    Also, picking up our discussion from a couple days ago.
    We did not have our daughter water baptized as an infant, since she could not obviously make that choice on her own.
    Rather we dedicated her, meaning we would raise her according to our beliefs.
    Hang on, there's more!
    We also believe that when she is old enough to decide, she can choose to get water baptized to announce her beliefs publicly and that she would need to decide what she believed and have her own faith apart from us.
    So, in that way, I don't believe we hammered it onto her head.
    It is ultimately her choice.

    I have an early day in the morning with the aforementioned girl, so ta ta for now...

    Have a good evening.

    Yes, I must turn off this iPad and go to sleep! This is such an interesting discussion :yawn:
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
    It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
    He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
    Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

    I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

    I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

    This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..:wink:
    What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Good question. We believe in an age of accountability (as I alluded to in my last past) when I child is old enough to grasp the tenets of our faith and either accept or reject them.
    Therefore, infants go straight to heaven along with people with severe developmental disabilities etc.
    Not to keep you up all night, so answer when you have time, but I'd like to see scripture that quotes that.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
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    @Gallowmere: yes, God knew we were going to get to that point of questioning,

    @ninerbuff: I'm a Packers fan. Oops, wrong discussion... Yes, I will get back to you.

    Good night!
  • ChelseaYepThatsMe
    ChelseaYepThatsMe Posts: 457
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    jpicsexiaduvysym3hmm.gif
    my thoughts exactly

    You thought wrooooong. ;)
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    From just a few posts up.

    LOL I just didn't feel like reading through all the pages of arguments over this topic, because obviously IT IS A TOUCHY TOPIC FOR MANY PEOPLE!
    I seen that on the first page, thought it fit lol.
    My opinion shall remain within, as I'm agnostic.
    My beliefs are mine, and mine only and they are subject to change whenever I feel they should.
    (:
    I just don't think this should have became a debate over religion rather than what the OP asked.
    Maybe I'm a vampire? Maybe I'm walking as life after death lol.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    jpicsexiaduvysym3hmm.gif
    my thoughts exactly

    You thought wrooooong. ;)
    Dear Posters,

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    From just a few posts up.

    LOL I just didn't feel like reading through all the pages of arguments over this topic, because obviously IT IS A TOUCHY TOPIC FOR MANY PEOPLE!
    I seen that on the first page, thought it fit lol.
    My opinion shall remain within, as I'm agnostic.
    My beliefs are mine, and mine only and they are subject to change whenever I feel they should.
    (:
    I just don't think this should have became a debate over religion rather than what the OP asked.
    Maybe I'm a vampire? Maybe I'm walking as life after death lol.
    Since the discussion does revolve around religious beliefs, then debating about it is appropriate.

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