Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?
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"...This is very true, which makes the whole thing kind of shaky for me. Since it wasn't until the New Testament that any kind of 'life after death' was even brought up, what of the people who came and went before?..."
Not true. The Old Testament saints well understood about life after death. Job says in the Book of Job (scholars feel that it is the oldest book in the Bible), "But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives and that He will stand upon the earth at last. And after my [earthly] body has decayed, yet in my [heavenly] body I will see God." (Job 19:25-26) Even in the Book of Genesis, there is what is known as the Protevangelium. It was God's statement to Adam and Eve about the coming of the Messiah. The early church fathers, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus regarded the statement as the first Messianic prophecy of the Old Testament. Jesus said, "Abraham delighted to see my day." That is why.
"...In the Old Testament, it appears to me that if someone pissed God off, he pretty much struck them down in a fairly horrific way..."
Not always---there are many, many examples of His grace in the Old Testament.0 -
Yes, I believe in Heaven and Hell and that there is one way into Heaven, through salvation.0
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Job says in the Book of Job (scholars feel that it is the oldest book in the Bible),
So let me see if I have this straight...the Bible was recorded, as it happened (according to an earlier argument you put forth against ninerbuff), yet Job is the oldest book? Is it just me, or does that seem strange, unless of course the stuff that happened in Job occurred within a non-temporal frame prior to Genesis, or within time, but before the exodus?Not always---there are many, many examples of His grace in the Old Testament.
Feel free to enlighten me, because I honestly cannot recall these for the life of me. Even if so, I'd say the 'Wrath of God' moments of the Old Testament definitely outweighed the 'God of love' moments.0 -
"...So let me see if I have this straight...the Bible was recorded, as it happened (according to an earlier argument you put forth against ninerbuff), yet Job is the oldest book?..."
If you will recall, I said that the HISTORY was recorded as it happened. Other parts, the Law, for example, was obviously written later than much of the history of the Hebrew people (um, how could Moses have written the Law before Abraham was born since Abraham died about 250 years before Moses was born?).0 -
Our Solar system (big as we see it) is just a spot in the Universe. Just for reference. Go to the beach and grab a handful of sand. Each grain of sand in your hand would represent a star. That would represent OUR Milky Way galaxy.No, we ARE special. In all our investigations of space, why is there so little (if any) evidence of other life, let alone intelligent life? If we were nothing special, surely the universe would be teeming with life and so far, our investigations have come up with nada...except here on Earth (although that point is debatable at times). Why is Earth so special? Because we are--just as God said.
Every beach on Earth still WOULDN'T have enough grains of sand to represent how many stars are out there. We as humans can barely tell if there's life from a few miles away just using our senses.
We've only just researched what we CAN reach, so to say that just because WE haven't discovered more, DOESN'T mean that other life out there similar to ours doesn't exist.
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And likewise, just because WE haven't discovered evidence of the existence of life after death DOESN'T mean that there is no life after death. Relatively speaking, we know very little about our own solar system. We know even less about our universe. I don't buy into theories that are posited as "scientific fact" that don't even consider alternative theories as possible if they contain even a hint of theism. It's kind of like Henry Ford saying "They can have any color they want, as long as it's black"
As far as people murdering others in the name of Christianity, if I intentionally murder someone wearing my Navy uniform, and claim that I am doing it in the name of the United States Navy, does that make it so? Of course not. I am quite certain that Christ is appalled at what some people are doing in His name, but rest assured, come judgement day, He will say "I never knew you". Likewise, I am sure that there are many people who call themselves Christians, but will also be surprised come Judgement day. Sometimes we Christians are our own worst enemies.
Yes, I believe that there is an afterlife. No, I have no evidence to support it. No, you have no evidence to NOT support it either. Heaven is real. Hell is real. The greatest scientific intellects on the planet have not been able to successfully create "spontaneous" life. What would possibly compel any one of us to believe that we could even BEGIN to comprehend the thoughts and actions of the creator of the entire universe and all things within it?
edited for spelling0 -
How is this bible quoting marathon allowed when a topic on Atheism is removed after a page or two?
I'm calling shenanigans!!0 -
"...Feel free to enlighten me, because I honestly cannot recall these for the life of me..."
God had mercy on Adam and Eve. He punished them but He could have easily killed them and I believe we will see them in Heaven. That was just the beginning. He had mercy on Noah and his family, He had mercy on Abraham and His family, He had mercy on Isaac and Jacob and the children of Israel in Egypt. He was VERY long suffering with the Twelve Tribes. He had mercy on Rehab the prostitute, and on Ruth and Esther. He had mercy on David after David's sin with Bathsheba. The list goes on and on. And He holds a special place in Heaven for all of His prophets (and Apostles). His crowning act of mercy was to create the Bride of Christ, the Church which will inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem forever. He is the same God of the Old and New Testament---it is we who have changed.0 -
Arguing over religion or lack there of is pretty idiotic honestly. No one knows the truth or has any way of knowing so give it a rest. IJS...0
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Our Solar system (big as we see it) is just a spot in the Universe. Just for reference. Go to the beach and grab a handful of sand. Each grain of sand in your hand would represent a star. That would represent OUR Milky Way galaxy.No, we ARE special. In all our investigations of space, why is there so little (if any) evidence of other life, let alone intelligent life? If we were nothing special, surely the universe would be teeming with life and so far, our investigations have come up with nada...except here on Earth (although that point is debatable at times). Why is Earth so special? Because we are--just as God said.
Every beach on Earth still WOULDN'T have enough grains of sand to represent how many stars are out there. We as humans can barely tell if there's life from a few miles away just using our senses.
We've only just researched what we CAN reach, so to say that just because WE haven't discovered more, DOESN'T mean that other life out there similar to ours doesn't exist.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And likewise, just because WE haven't discovered evidence of the existence of life after death DOESN'T mean that there is no life after death. Relatively speaking, we know very little about our own solar system. We know even less about our universe. I don't buy into theories that are posited as "scientific fact" that don't even consider alternative theories as possible if they contain even a hint of theism. It's kind of like Henry Ford saying "They can have any color they want, as long as it's black"
As far as people murdering others in the name of Christianity, if I intentionally murder someone wearing my Navy uniform, and claim that I am doing it in the name of the United States Navy, does that make it so? Of course not. I am quite certain that Christ is appalled at what some people are doing in His name, but rest assured, come judgement day, He will say "I never knew you". Likewise, I am sure that there are many people who call themselves Christians, but will also be surprised come Judgement day. Sometimes we Christians are our own worst enemies.
Yes, I believe that there is an afterlife. No, I have no evidence to support it. No, you have no evidence to NOT support it either. Heaven is real. Hell is real. The greatest scientific intellects on the planet have not been able to successfully create "spontaneous" life. What would possibly compel any one of us to believe that we could even BEGIN to comprehend the thoughts and actions of the creator of the entire universe and all things within it?
edited for spelling
Amen.0 -
Arguing over religion or lack there of is pretty idiotic honestly. No one knows the truth or has any way of knowing so give it a rest. IJS...
Yes!! finally!0 -
Yes.0
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And likewise, just because WE haven't discovered evidence of the existence of life after death DOESN'T mean that there is no life after death. Relatively speaking, we know very little about our own solar system. We know even less about our universe. I don't buy into theories that are posited as "scientific fact" that don't even consider alternative theories as possible if they contain even a hint of theism. It's kind of like Henry Ford saying "They can have any color they want, as long as it's black"
As far as people murdering others in the name of Christianity, if I intentionally murder someone wearing my Navy uniform, and claim that I am doing it in the name of the United States Navy, does that make it so? Of course not. I am quite certain that Christ is appalled at what some people are doing in His name, but rest assured, come judgement day, He will say "I never knew you". Likewise, I am sure that there are many people who call themselves Christians, but will also be surprised come Judgement day. Sometimes we Christians are our own worst enemies.
Yes, I believe that there is an afterlife. No, I have no evidence to support it. No, you have no evidence to NOT support it either. Heaven is real. Hell is real. The greatest scientific intellects on the planet have not been able to successfully create "spontaneous" life. What would possibly compel any one of us to believe that we coud even BEGIN to comprehend the thoughts and actions of the creator of the entire universe and all things within it?
Your statement reminded me of a book that I want to recommend to every single person of faith. It's called "Believing Bull****: How Not to Get Sucked into an Intellectual Black Hole" by Stephen Law.
Don't let the name fool you, as it's not a direct kick in the jaw to religion itself as many atheist writings are, but a kick in the jaw to the way people defend their sometimes ridiculous beliefs (including crystal healers, homeopathy, psychics, etc.) As he puts it so well, "Just because some religious people choose to defend what they believe by dubious means doesn't entail that no one can reasonably hold those same beliefs".
The strategies he tears down are:
1. Playing the Mystery Card
2. "But it Fits!"
3. Going Nuclear
4. Moving the Semantic Goalposts
5. "I Just Know!"
6. Pseudoprofundity
7. Piling Up the Anecdotes
8. Pressing Your Buttons
The problem is that many people have gotten so used to just vomiting up whatever stuff they have been fed on a subject, that they never really stop to think about it. Keep in mind though, agnostics aren't the ones making claims that there is some benevolent being who requires praise, lest you face an eternal damnation, so they really don't have to prove anything. Remember, when debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim.0 -
How is this bible quoting marathon allowed when a topic on Atheism is removed after a page or two?
I'm calling shenanigans!!
Because we aren't being divisive. We're including anyone who wants to come to play.
Actually, I have no idea why it hasn't been locked, but I am glad it hasn't, as this has been one of the few bastions of real intellectual discourse on this board for the last couple of days....says the agnostic in the room. :-o 0 -
Actually, I do not know ONE knowledgeable Christian who believes that Mohammed "was a pretender to Christ". I often engage Muslims on Christian forums and will, just as often, ask the question, "If you believe He was a prophet, why don't you believe Him?" They never have an answer for that question. And the story of Mohammed is VERY FAR from the story of Jesus. If you could make that statement, you are ill-informed about the Christian faith AND Islam.
well maybe because the Koran and the Bible don't have the same stories and interpretations. It's weird that you assume that because Muslims don't believe Jesus is God that they don't believe his words. Even his words in our language can take different meaning. So much is left to interpretation. Maybe their silence indicated a sense of having been insulted by your loaded question, rather than an inability to prove you wrong.
Well, it would be interesting to see them try to disprove what Jesus plainly said in our New Testament (and for which, the Jews wanted to stone Him).
Your new testament isn't the same as the Koran. So why would they bother? It is as meaninful to them as their book is to you.
You understand this, right?
You are mistaken. Muslims accept both the Old and New Testaments (they came WELL before the Q'uran). Much of the Q'uran is a recapitulation of what they call "The Book" (just as they call Jews and Christians "People of the Book"). Muslims accept all three---Christians only accept two and Jews accept only the Tanakh. Only the New Testament teaches followers of Jesus to live in peace with all men of good will. Only one presents the fullness of truth.
^ No, I think you're clearly mistaken. I suggest you go pick up a copy of the Qur'an and the Bible an re-educate yourself instead of passing around gibberish.
I will not debate this here. There are many Christian forums where I would engage this topic. I invite you to pick one and I would go there for debate. This is not the proper place for this discussion. Besides, it would likely be shut down before we got very far into debate.
she says after 15 pages.
Honey, God ain't gonna be mad at you if you just pick up a Koran and read a few pages to confirm whether or not it directly matches the bible up until after Jesus' resurection! He won't!
But just remember, it starts in the back and goes to the front.
That's a common Koran Noob mistake.
I will gladly debate unbelievers here. But I will not debate members of other religions here, for a number of reasons (which I won't go into). There are other forums much better suited to the subject of Christianity vs. Islam.
I am not from "another religion"....all I'm saying is the Koran and the Bible have very different ways of talking about Jesus. I'm not debatin what is true or anything like that. Just saying the Koran is not the Bible plus some other stuff. I have both a Koran and a Bible right here on my bookshelf. It's really easy to see they are different.0 -
And likewise, just because WE haven't discovered evidence of the existence of life after death DOESN'T mean that there is no life after death. Relatively speaking, we know very little about our own solar system. We know even less about our universe. I don't buy into theories that are posited as "scientific fact" that don't even consider alternative theories as possible if they contain even a hint of theism. It's kind of like Henry Ford saying "They can have any color they want, as long as it's black"
As far as people murdering others in the name of Christianity, if I intentionally murder someone wearing my Navy uniform, and claim that I am doing it in the name of the United States Navy, does that make it so? Of course not. I am quite certain that Christ is appalled at what some people are doing in His name, but rest assured, come judgement day, He will say "I never knew you". Likewise, I am sure that there are many people who call themselves Christians, but will also be surprised come Judgement day. Sometimes we Christians are our own worst enemies.
Yes, I believe that there is an afterlife. No, I have no evidence to support it. No, you have no evidence to NOT support it either. Heaven is real. Hell is real. The greatest scientific intellects on the planet have not been able to successfully create "spontaneous" life. What would possibly compel any one of us to believe that we coud even BEGIN to comprehend the thoughts and actions of the creator of the entire universe and all things within it?
Your statement reminded me of a book that I want to recommend to every single person of faith. It's called "Believing Bull****: How Not to Get Sucked into an Intellectual Black Hole" by Stephen Law.
Don't let the name fool you, as it's not a direct kick in the jaw to religion itself as many atheist writings are, but a kick in the jaw to the way people defend their sometimes ridiculous beliefs (including crystal healers, homeopathy, psychics, etc.) As he puts it so well, "Just because some religious people choose to defend what they believe by dubious means doesn't entail that no one can reasonably hold those same beliefs".
The strategies he tears down are:
1. Playing the Mystery Card
2. "But it Fits!"
3. Going Nuclear
4. Moving the Semantic Goalposts
5. "I Just Know!"
6. Pseudoprofundity
7. Piling Up the Anecdotes
8. Pressing Your Buttons
The problem is that many people have gotten so used to just vomiting up whatever stuff they have been fed on a subject, that they never really stop to think about it. Keep in mind though, agnostics aren't the ones making claims that there is some benevolent being who requires praise, lest you face an eternal damnation, so they really don't have to prove anything. Remember, when debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim.
And I have a book to recommend for those who consider themselves atheist or agnostic ... it's called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist". It's a similar concept, but takes a hard look at some of the "scientific" methods used to refute Theism in general, and specifically Christianity. What made me think of it was the one point you mentioned about the book you recommended called "It fits".
As for agnostis and atheists and proof, it isn't really my job to MAKE them believe in God and the eternal salvation offered through faith in Christ Jesus, but to plant a seed of faith, and allow God to do what He does best. The farmer plants the corn, but he doesn't MAKE it grow. Of course, he tends to it while it is sprouting, but ultimately God makes the corn grow. Likewise, only God can turn a heart.
FTR, I used to be an atheist. I failed. How I came to believe in God, however, is not relevant for the discussion at hand.0 -
How is this bible quoting marathon allowed when a topic on Atheism is removed after a page or two?
I'm calling shenanigans!!
Because we aren't being divisive. We're including anyone who wants to come to play. Actually, I have no idea why it hasn't been locked, but I am glad it hasn't, as this has been one of the few bastions of real intellectual discourse on this board for the last couple of days....says the agnostic in the room. :-o
^^^ Agreed!0 -
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And I have a book to recommend for those who consider themselves atheist or agnostic ... it's called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist". It's a similar concept, but takes a hard look at some of the "scientific" methods used to refute Theism in general, and specifically Christianity. What made me think of it was the one point you mentioned about the book you recommended called "It fits".
As for agnostis and atheists and proof, it isn't really my job to MAKE them believe in God and the eternal salvation offered through faith in Christ Jesus, but to plant a seed of faith, and allow God to do what He does best. The farmer plants the corn, but he doesn't MAKE it grow. Of course, he tends to it while it is sprouting, but ultimately God makes the corn grow. Likewise, only God can turn a heart.
FTR, I used to be an atheist. I failed. How I came to believe in God, however, is not relevant for the discussion at hand.
I'll give it a look, and thanks for the recommendation.
Keep in mind, Law doesn't use only the scientific method to attack the 'defense mechanisms' of faith based things. There's also a huge portion of good old fashioned rationality and empirical (though not necessarily derived from the scientific method) evidence. He also admits, just as Dawkins did (which many who hate him like to overlook) "Perhaps there are some genuinely profound and meaningful questions that are forever beyond the reach of science". That's the point where we have to actually turn on that old rusty engine called 'critical thinking' that so very many members of our population today have forgotten all about. Don't worry, I don't blame religion for the numbing of the minds, as the human brain did very well under centuries of it's rule. No, I find the 'nanny state' to be much more detrimental to thought capacity, but that's another topic for another time.0 -
I'll give it a look, and thanks for the recommendation.
Keep in mind, Law doesn't use only the scientific method to attack the 'defense mechanisms' of faith based things. There's also a huge portion of good old fashioned rationality and empirical (though not necessarily derived from the scientific method) evidence. He also admits, just as Dawkins did (which many who hate him like to overlook) "Perhaps there are some genuinely profound and meaningful questions that are forever beyond the reach of science". That's the point where we have to actually turn on that old rusty engine called 'critical thinking' that so very many members of our population today have forgotten all about. Don't worry, I don't blame religion for the numbing of the minds, as the human brain did very well under centuries of it's rule. No, I find the 'nanny state' to be much more detrimental to thought capacity, but that's another topic for another time.
I think we may be in agreement on the nanny state comment, in all aspects.0 -
Muhammad was most definitely NOT a pretender of Jesus. We believe that both Muhammad and Jesus were prophets. We respect all of the prophets. He left us with the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah (the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), of course we're going to follow him. A prophet is someone who interprets and communicates the will of God. God has more power than all of the messengers combined, we both obey the one and only God.
Prophet Muhammad was the final messenger of Allah, and was sent to complete the mission of the previous Messengers (including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others) of calling people to believing in God and following the guidance and teachings of God. We see Muhammad as the highest role model and aim to follow in his footsteps and Muhammad himself follows Allahs orders as well.
"Say (Oh Muhammad): ‘If you (truly) love Allah then follow me, so that Allah may love you and forgive your sins.’ And Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate." (3:31)
Now, here is my only real quarrel with Islam and the others: Muslims would expect all to accept Muhammad as a prophet of God (Allah), as he very clearly is a continuation (so to speak) of the prophets who came before him. Now, any 'logical' believer in any of the monotheisms would likely accept that no God would just drop one book and leave mankind to figure out the rest for themselves. As such, to me, Islam makes a bit more sense than Christianity, and Christianity a bit more than Judaism. However, my gripe comes in that all of them want to be the last word. Jews don't believe Christ is the messiah, Christians don't accept Muhammad as a prophet, and, well, quite frankly, I couldn't exactly see Islam being too welcoming of the next person who comes along claiming to be a prophet of God.
All of them accept that there is one God (and the same one at that), but they are all kinds of upset with each over the minor details, so to speak. Now, how is it that all of them can agree on the ONE thing that can't be proven, yet they jump all over each other over the earthly stuff that has at least some (however little) historical validity?
My understanding is that all three faiths believe in the Patriarchs (Abraham, Moses etc.). It's Jesus who throws them into a conundrum.0
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