Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?

MellyGibson

BUT DO YOU EAT YOUR EXERCISE CALORIES BACK?!?!?!?

Really. Now I'm just angry. Not only are you totally ignoring me and I'm not even challenging your belief, now you are smack talking my people.

Not cool.

Aw lawd...I've seen videos of this woman lifting. Her inner Hulk is starting to show! Dear god man, just answer her damned question!

It's not just her "Inner Hulk" showing, it's her friend's "Inner Hulk" coming out, too. I'd seriously like to know the answer as well....

CorvusCorax77

BUT DO YOU EAT YOUR EXERCISE CALORIES BACK?!?!?!?

Really. Now I'm just angry. Not only are you totally ignoring me and I'm not even challenging your belief, now you are smack talking my people.

Not cool.

Aw lawd...I've seen videos of this woman lifting. Her inner Hulk is starting to show! Dear god man, just answer her damned question!

It's not just her "Inner Hulk" showing, it's her friend's "Inner Hulk" coming out, too. I'd seriously like to know the answer as well....

thanks guys

Mustang_Susie

I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..

What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That one is an easy one. All children below the "age of responsibility" go to be with the Lord in Paradise. Jesus said that, "...their angels are ever before the throne of God." It was only after Augustine suggested that children were born with "Original Sin" on them that the Roman Church (which has a theology that borrows heavily from Augustine) thought up the whole idea of baptism being essential to guarantee that a dying baby would go to heaven. It is important to remember that throughout Scripture, the idea of one being responsible for one's own sin is stated. One goes to hell on the basis of one's own sin and the punishment there is meted out on the basis of that sin. Jesus said that those who sinned greatly would be punished greatly. Since innocent babies and young children (before they understand the concept of sin) have no sin (just as older people who have damaged brains) they would be in heaven with Jesus at death.

This is a stance/postition. It's not scripturally written. However there is scripture written about being born in sin and humans being born unrighteous.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

You have a valid question.
Yes, scripture does say "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23
I'm working on your answer

SanteMulberry

I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.

But that still doesn't change the view of someone like myself who looks at all religious faith as being subjective in interpretation. ALL religions believe that how they interpret scriptures is correct. Some of my favorite debates were ones that I observed on a religious forum where different denominations of christianity argued about interpretation of scripture.
The Jews and christians follow the old testament, yet disagree overall on religious belief. Why? Because somewhere interpretation of scripture led christianity another direction.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

It isn't a matter of interpretation of Scripture---really. That's a dodge that unbelievers always use but there is the faith that is based on Scripture and then there are human opinions. All it takes is some little deviation from Scripture to start building a "castle in the air"---such as the idea of "Original Sin" which led to the idea that babies who die without baptism go to hell. The RCC softened it a bit with "Limbo" although my RC friends tell me that was never official doctrine.

But, there is NO Biblical support for the idea that an infant is born with sin on him/her like some sort of nasty bug. Because we are children of Adam, we all born with an ability to sin, we are nevertheless born innocent. When David lost his infant son, he said, "...I will go to him one day, but he can not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:23) It is very doubtful that David thought that the place where he would meet his deceased infant son was anywhere but Paradise (they would often call it "the bosom of Abraham". David was "a man after God's own heart" and God forgave him repeatedly (but he did make him pay consequences in this life).

SanteMulberry

The picture was too damn big, had to resize it.

^^^ This, and how every religion refers to a book for their reason for belief. For Example: "Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so." Well now, we've just created a cult haven't we? We have inserted a figure of divinity and a reason for believing in that divinity which has proof only within itself. Tell that story to a bunch of children as they grow up and make them feel like they should tell it to their children. Create gatherings so that people can feel like they are a part of a group and are loved by a group that shares the same beliefs as them. Insert music to stir their emotions. Create a system for making them feel guilty about things that they do but be sure that you create a way for them to rid themselves of at least part of that guilt so they will feel as though they are excepted again. So we have just made people feel like the very religion that cursed them to a life of guilt is the one that freed them from said life of guilt.

Except what do you say about people who came to faith as an adult (like I did)?

Timshel_

Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?

Let the debate begin

Still yes.

Mustang_Susie

While true faith can be found attending the RCC, many Catholics only know the ritual and do not know the word of God.

Ooooh, you're may be stepping on some toes here. My friend chattipatti (MFP handle) would likely be offended by this.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

If we were to really get into the nitty gritty, we would need to talk one on one with every human on the planet to find out what they knew about the Bible.

I grew up going to Catholic Church and school (16 years of it).
I believe there is a huge difference between attending Catholic Church and bring raised Catholic.
It has been my experience that very few follow to the letter the tenets of Catholicism, understand the difference between Vatican 1 and Vatican 2 etc.
I certainly didn't/don't but was told to just follow the Pope, Archbishop, priest (who, by the way, turned out to be pedophiles which I'm pretty sure is not only against the law but considered a sin in most religions... but I digress).
I knew some of the Bible and some about God and Jesus, but I didn't find the relationship I was looking for.
It was only after I went looking for God and Jesus on my own that I found them and some pretty rockin' Catholics too!

Mustang_Susie

Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?

Let the debate begin

Still yes.

Concise!

SanteMulberry

I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.

Hey! Aroundthemulberrybush! *whistles!* *waves hand!* I'm still waiting for you to reply to what I said! I'm not a Muslim! You can actually talk to me! It's ok!!!

I am not asking you to believe anything different about God or the Bible. I'm simply asking you to recognize that the Koran presents a very different Jesus than the one presented in the Bible. That's all. A very simple thing. I think recognizing this fact might help you to speak to Muslims in the future about their beliefs in Jesus without insulting them.

My issue is not your faith. My issue is xenophobia. It really irks me. I can't help it.

SIgned,
Baptized Catholic!

Let me start off with saying that I know several Muslims and find them to be delightful people. Please don't groan and say that makes it obvious that I am prejudiced--because I am not in any way, hostile to someone of another faith. However, I do not believe that other faiths are correct (if I thought so, I would pursue them, wouldn't I?). I lump all other faiths into one category--man-based. They all, in one way or another, have humans earning their way into heaven (if they have the concept of heaven). Scripture indicates that this cannot be done (as "all fall short of the glory of God" and "all our righteousness is as filthy rags"). Even our very good acts can be tainted with pride (which is probably the gravest sin of all because it prevents us from being humble before a very holy God). Christianity is a grace-based religion, which makes it unlike any of the others. It portrays God as He is (as portrayed in Scripture)---aching to have mercy on us. He is a tender Father, but He is also just and righteous. Sin must be punished or He is not just. But He made a way through the Cross. "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2 Cor. 5:21) This is what Old Testament saints expected that the Messiah would do when He came as "the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 (the teaching that the "Suffering Servant" is Israel, only became very popular after the Resurrection). They called Him "Messiah Ben Joseph". They also taught about a Messiah who would be a conquering King---Messiah Ben David. They did not understand that He would be the same Messiah but coming to men twice. One of the things that confused the Jews in Jesus' day, was that they were expecting the conquering King (to free them from "the oppression of the Gentiles"--Roman rule) and instead got the Suffering Servant.

If Islam has a picture of Jesus that is very different from eye-witness accounts in the New Testament, then, considering that the Q'uran was written approximately 600 years after the life of Jesus, which account would I be more likely to consider accurate?

SanteMulberry

I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.

I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.

I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.

This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..

What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That one is an easy one. All children below the "age of responsibility" go to be with the Lord in Paradise. Jesus said that, "...their angels are ever before the throne of God." It was only after Augustine suggested that children were born with "Original Sin" on them that the Roman Church (which has a theology that borrows heavily from Augustine) thought up the whole idea of baptism being essential to guarantee that a dying baby would go to heaven. It is important to remember that throughout Scripture, the idea of one being responsible for one's own sin is stated. One goes to hell on the basis of one's own sin and the punishment there is meted out on the basis of that sin. Jesus said that those who sinned greatly would be punished greatly. Since innocent babies and young children (before they understand the concept of sin) have no sin (just as older people who have damaged brains) they would be in heaven with Jesus at death.

This is a stance/postition. It's not scripturally written. However there is scripture written about being born in sin and humans being born unrighteous.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

You are correct, it is not specifically spelled out in Scripture. Could you give book, chapter and verse of "humans being born unrighteous"? David does make a somewhat poetic statement in Psalm 51:5 that he was "born a sinner." But that is not the same thing as saying he was born being responsible for some floating "Original Sin". Taken in the context of his belief that his infant son would go to Paradise, it is logical to suppose he was just acknowledging the sin that we are prone to as children of Adam.

SanteMulberry

While true faith can be found attending the RCC, many Catholics only know the ritual and do not know the word of God.

Ooooh, you're may be stepping on some toes here. My friend chattipatti (MFP handle) would likely be offended by this.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

If we were to really get into the nitty gritty, we would need to talk one on one with every human on the planet to find out what they knew about the Bible.

I grew up going to Catholic Church and school (16 years of it).
I believe there is a huge difference between attending Catholic Church and bring raised Catholic.
It has been my experience that very few follow to the letter the tenets of Catholicism, understand the difference between Vatican 1 and Vatican 2 etc.
I certainly didn't/don't but was told to just follow the Pope, Archbishop, priest (who, by the way, turned out to be pedophiles which I'm pretty sure is not only against the law but considered a sin in most religions... but I digress).
I knew some of the Bible and some about God and Jesus, but I didn't find the relationship I was looking for.
It was only after I went looking for God and Jesus on my own that I found them and some pretty rockin' Catholics too!

My aunt (a Roman Catholic) was one of the most gracious, heart-felt Christians I ever knew. She had callouses on her knees from praying for her family and she read her Bible every day. If I hadn't had her as an influence in my life, I might not have even considered the claims of Christ. But all through my life of being far from God, I always had her niggling presence in the back of my mind. My own dear husband was raised a Roman Catholic and found true faith there. His grandmother bought him a Bible at his First Communion and pleaded with him to read it. He did and found Jesus.

Lazygal53

Nope. you get a dirt nap and then you're worm food. I think the concept of an afterlife is just a crutch for people who are afraid of death being an absolute end.

This ^^^

CorvusCorax77

I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.

Hey! Aroundthemulberrybush! *whistles!* *waves hand!* I'm still waiting for you to reply to what I said! I'm not a Muslim! You can actually talk to me! It's ok!!!

I am not asking you to believe anything different about God or the Bible. I'm simply asking you to recognize that the Koran presents a very different Jesus than the one presented in the Bible. That's all. A very simple thing. I think recognizing this fact might help you to speak to Muslims in the future about their beliefs in Jesus without insulting them.

My issue is not your faith. My issue is xenophobia. It really irks me. I can't help it.

SIgned,
Baptized Catholic!

Let me start off with saying that I know several Muslims and find them to be delightful people. Please don't groan and say that makes it obvious that I am prejudiced--because I am not in any way, hostile to someone of another faith. However, I do not believe that other faiths are correct (if I thought so, I would pursue them, wouldn't I?). I lump all other faiths into one category--man-based. They all, in one way or another, have humans earning their way into heaven (if they have the concept of heaven). Scripture indicates that this cannot be done (as "all fall short of the glory of God" and "all our righteousness is as filthy rags"). Even our very good acts can be tainted with pride (which is probably the gravest sin of all because it prevents us from being humble before a very holy God). Christianity is a grace-based religion, which makes it unlike any of the others. It portrays God as He is (as portrayed in Scripture)---aching to have mercy on us. He is a tender Father, but He is also just and righteous. Sin must be punished or He is not just. But He made a way through the Cross. "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2 Cor. 5:21) This is what Old Testament saints expected that the Messiah would do when He came as "the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 (the teaching that the "Suffering Servant" is Israel, only became very popular after the Resurrection). They called Him "Messiah Ben Joseph". They also taught about a Messiah who would be a conquering King---Messiah Ben David. They did not understand that He would be the same Messiah but coming to men twice. One of the things that confused the Jews in Jesus' day, was that they were expecting the conquering King (to free them from "the oppression of the Gentiles"--Roman rule) and instead got the Suffering Servant.

If Islam has a picture of Jesus that is very different from eye-witness accounts in the New Testament, then, considering that the Q'uran was written approximately 600 years after the life of Jesus, which account would I be more likely to consider accurate?

So you understand now that their accounts of Jesus are, in fact, different??

Thank you.

That is all I wanted you to understand.

renene44

For those that are genuinely interested in the Bible's point of view of what happens immediately after death:

Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 6, 10... "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all...." Look up the scripture for yourself for full context. It goes on to say that the dead can neither love nor hate and that "there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She'ol..." (She'ol (Hebrew word) or Hades (Greek word) is often translated "Hell" in different translations of the Bible, however, when thorough research is done, you will find that this word actually means "common grave". The eternal torment in Hell teaching is a man made doctrine and has no Biblical support.

Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies "his spirit (or based on the Hebrew word used, "his breath") goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish."

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he did not send them into purgatory, or to hell, or any of these made up doctrine teachings... he said "for dust you are and dust you will return" Genesis 3:19.

When Jesus spoke about Lazarus, who died, he said "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest." When the disciples thought Jesus meant he was sleeping, Jesus explained "Lazarus has died." (John 11:11-14) When the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he "fell asleep." (Acts 7:60) Death is likened to sleeping or at rest...... ever wonder about R.I.P?...... REST In Peace.

We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not GO anywhere. It is simply gone. The truth about what happens when we die is comforting. The dead do not suffer pain or heartache, and are not tormented in hell, for "God is love." (1 John 4:8)

Does all this mean that the life we live now has no purpose? Was it God's original purpose for us to die? No. God made man to live forever on earth, and that is still God's purpose for us. God promises us a resurrection on a beautiful paradise earth. Read John 5: 28, 29 and Revelation 20:13 (remember that Hades often translated hell refers actually to the "common grave of mankind.") It's a beautiful hope for the future!!

A lot of other questions we can have answered in the Bible are those like:
What is God's Kingdom?
Why does God allow suffering?
Are we living in the last days?
Will we ever see peace on earth?
What are spirit creatures and can they affect us?
Why are there so many divisions of church, and different religions, and how can we find the truth of the Bible?
.....and any others you may have

I will not debate on here so feel free to PM me for those that genuinely would like more information or have questions. Thanks

Lazygal53

It's all politics in it's early stages ...

ninerbuff

I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.

But that still doesn't change the view of someone like myself who looks at all religious faith as being subjective in interpretation. ALL religions believe that how they interpret scriptures is correct. Some of my favorite debates were ones that I observed on a religious forum where different denominations of christianity argued about interpretation of scripture.
The Jews and christians follow the old testament, yet disagree overall on religious belief. Why? Because somewhere interpretation of scripture led christianity another direction.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

It isn't a matter of interpretation of Scripture---really. That's a dodge that unbelievers always use but there is the faith that is based on Scripture and then there are human opinions. All it takes is some little deviation from Scripture to start building a "castle in the air"---such as the idea of "Original Sin" which led to the idea that babies who die without baptism go to hell. The RCC softened it a bit with "Limbo" although my RC friends tell me that was never official doctrine.

Yes it is a matter of interpretation. If there was not any disparity, then there wouldn't be other denominations of religion within religions.

But, there is NO Biblical support for the idea that an infant is born with sin on him/her like some sort of nasty bug. Because we are children of Adam, we all born with an ability to sin, we are nevertheless born innocent.

The literal scripture seems pretty black and white here:


Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Psalms 51:1-19 - (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. (Read More...)

Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Isaiah 1:1-31 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah. (Read More...)

1 Kings 8:46 - If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Ephesians 2:1 - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 5:14 - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.

Matthew 19:14 - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13-15 - Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. (Read More...)

Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 18:1-32 - The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (Read More...)

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Job 14:1-4 - Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble. (Read More...)

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 2:1-2 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (Read More...)

1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

Hebrews 12:9 - Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Acts 3:19-21 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Read More...)

John 8:44 - Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 1:28 - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

Jeremiah 31:29 - In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (Read More...)

Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 11:9 - They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 7:16 - For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Isaiah 7:15 - Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isaiah 2:1-22 - The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. (Read More...)

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Psalms 119:9-11 - BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word. (Read More...)

Psalms 118:26 - Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

Psalms 118:23 - This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes.

Psalms 106:36-39 - And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. (Read More...)

Psalms 82:6 - I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Psalms 22:6 - But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Psalms 14:1-3 - (To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good. (Read More...)

Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous? (Read More...)

Deuteronomy 32:4 - [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

Exodus 20:12 - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Genesis 6:5 - And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Revelation 5:13 - And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 1:5 - And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Jude 1:6 - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

2 Peter 2:4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 Peter 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

James 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

John 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Matthew 21:42 - Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 3:2 - And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jeremiah 3:25 - We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalms 118:22 - The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.

Job 31:18 - (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as [with] a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb;)

1 Kings 4:33 - And he spake of trees, from the cedar tree that [is] in Lebanon even unto the hyssop that springeth out of the wall: he spake also of beasts, and of fowl, and of creeping things, and of fishes.

2 Samuel 11:5 - And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I [am] with child.

Deuteronomy 23:2 - A *kitten* shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Leviticus 5:7-13 - And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. (Read More...)

Genesis 38:1-30 - And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name [was] Hirah. (Read More...)

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Jude 1:3 - Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1 John 3:5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Hebrews 9:19 - For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 7:9 - And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Hebrews 7:5 - And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

2 Timothy 3:17 - That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:13 - But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Timothy 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Colossians 2:15 - [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Philippians 3:18 - (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Ephesians 5:25-27 - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (Read More...)


Kinda hard pressed to deny that biblical scripture doesn't mention being born into sin.

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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
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DaveHuby

Undecided. But in the meantime I'm enjoying life NOW!

XXX my lovely PK

ninerbuff

If Islam has a picture of Jesus that is very different from eye-witness accounts in the New Testament, then, considering that the Q'uran was written approximately 600 years after the life of Jesus, which account would I be more likely to consider accurate?

Well let's see, back in the day eye witnesses would claim volcanoes were evidence of god's anger. Today we know from science why volcanoes erupt. And that's WELL after.
Point is, eye witness testimony is subjective. Which ever one one was exposed to the most is probably the one they will believe.

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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Hadabetter

DaveHuby

I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.

But that still doesn't change the view of someone like myself who looks at all religious faith as being subjective in interpretation. ALL religions believe that how they interpret scriptures is correct. Some of my favorite debates were ones that I observed on a religious forum where different denominations of christianity argued about interpretation of scripture.
The Jews and christians follow the old testament, yet disagree overall on religious belief. Why? Because somewhere interpretation of scripture led christianity another direction.

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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

It isn't a matter of interpretation of Scripture---really. That's a dodge that unbelievers always use but there is the faith that is based on Scripture and then there are human opinions. All it takes is some little deviation from Scripture to start building a "castle in the air"---such as the idea of "Original Sin" which led to the idea that babies who die without baptism go to hell. The RCC softened it a bit with "Limbo" although my RC friends tell me that was never official doctrine.

Yes it is a matter of interpretation. If there was not any disparity, then there wouldn't be other denominations of religion within religions.

But, there is NO Biblical support for the idea that an infant is born with sin on him/her like some sort of nasty bug. Because we are children of Adam, we all born with an ability to sin, we are nevertheless born innocent.

The literal scripture seems pretty black and white here:


Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Psalms 51:1-19 - (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. (Read More...)

Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Isaiah 1:1-31 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah. (Read More...)

1 Kings 8:46 - If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Ephesians 2:1 - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 5:14 - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.

Matthew 19:14 - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13-15 - Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. (Read More...)

Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 18:1-32 - The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (Read More...)

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Job 14:1-4 - Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble. (Read More...)

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 2:1-2 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (Read More...)

1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

Hebrews 12:9 - Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Acts 3:19-21 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Read More...)

John 8:44 - Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 1:28 - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

Jeremiah 31:29 - In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (Read More...)

Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 11:9 - They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 7:16 - For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Isaiah 7:15 - Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isaiah 2:1-22 - The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. (Read More...)

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Psalms 119:9-11 - BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word. (Read More...)

Psalms 118:26 - Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

Psalms 118:23 - This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes.

Psalms 106:36-39 - And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. (Read More...)

Psalms 82:6 - I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Psalms 22:6 - But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Psalms 14:1-3 - (To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good. (Read More...)

Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous? (Read More...)

Deuteronomy 32:4 - [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

Exodus 20:12 - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Genesis 6:5 - And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Revelation 5:13 - And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 1:5 - And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Jude 1:6 - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

2 Peter 2:4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 Peter 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

James 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

John 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Matthew 21:42 - Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 3:2 - And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jeremiah 3:25 - We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalms 118:22 - The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.

Job 31:18 - (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as [with] a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb;)

1 Kings 4:33 - And he spake of trees, from the cedar tree that [is] in Lebanon even unto the hyssop that springeth out of the wall: he spake also of beasts, and of fowl, and of creeping things, and of fishes.

2 Samuel 11:5 - And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I [am] with child.

Deuteronomy 23:2 - A *kitten* shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Leviticus 5:7-13 - And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. (Read More...)

Genesis 38:1-30 - And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name [was] Hirah. (Read More...)

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Jude 1:3 - Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1 John 3:5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Hebrews 9:19 - For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 7:9 - And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Hebrews 7:5 - And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

2 Timothy 3:17 - That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:13 - But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Timothy 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Colossians 2:15 - [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Philippians 3:18 - (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Ephesians 5:25-27 - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (Read More...)


Kinda hard pressed to deny that biblical scripture doesn't mention being born into sin.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Not worth the thumb movements.

Practice vs preach. Meat on the plate vs pie in the sky

If more people practiced supporting life now, and less time praying about life to come we could all enjoy a little more life today.
Primary messages are
Love your neighbour as you would love yourself!
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End of.
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Religion neutral statement.