Just watched Forks Over Knives...

Vercell

:laugh: LOL

ArtGeek22

I am actually thinking about getting back on a non-dairy, little meat diet. And check out this website ---> http://engine2diet.com/ <---- and also watch the documentary that goes with it. It goes into further with plant base diet and is done by the fireman in the movie. Good luck

emtjmac

Sounds like a terrible idea. Eat a balanced diet based on real science, not on the beliefs of a bunch of foodophobic people who exclude entire food groups and then try to use pseudoscienctific nonsense to mask the neurotic eating disorder that underlies their behavior.

Here is all the help you need in deciding what to eat:

http://www.choosemyplate.gov/food-groups/

redheaddee

I don't let movies determine my dietary intake

Stop talking sensibly or they will ban you too.

84woolf

Some people are ridiculous. The "Ill always eat animals" photo? You must have a lot of time on your hands.

This post was a vague inquiry...not a preachy or divisive one that has warranted naysayers jumping on the veggie/vegan hate wagon...

Your general opinions weren't asked for. People with specific knowledge on the subject were sought after...not the likes of people who at best can contribute "mmmmm Bacon"

There are a myriad of threads featuring different eating styles and experimentation you can plug your bias into. I can hear Bill Maher saying "Keep living in your Bubble!"

I ALWAYS wonder how many meat eaters who tout "look at the scientific data!" also believe in God. Hm.

brower47

Documentaries are designed to create an emotional response. They tend to only give one viewpoint in a very skewed way. I would never base my diet, or anything else in my life, on something a film maker created. At most, they should start you thinking and cause you to do actual research into the topic where you, as the responsible, intelligent adult you are, can find sources from both sides and then make an informed decision, not a knee jerk, "a documentary said this" decision.

CoachReddy

where has this been posted? would love to see it. already asked once.

lol i'm allowed to miss one of the dozens of posts. my bad.

SideSteel

Documentaries are designed to create an emotional response. They tend to only give one viewpoint in a very skewed way. I would never base my diet, or anything else in my life, on something a film maker created. At most, they should start you thinking and cause you to do actual research into the topic where you, as the responsible, intelligent adult you are, can find sources from both sides and then make an informed decision, not a knee jerk, "a documentary said this" decision.

This is a great post.

queenbelove

I am new in my journey, but am on day 29 meat free. have still been eating some cheese, yogurt, and coffee creamer. planning on cutting out all dairy starting Friday. A year ago I read A world without cancer, the story of B17 and it really got me on a path to seeking out truth in our food sources, non gmo foods, and looking for free range meats/ dairy for my family....I got an amazon prime subscription for Christmas and watched forks over knives, food inc, and vegecated. They all blew my mind & we decided as a family to eat more meat free meals together. You can do it!

Thanks for the encouragement, and I wish you nothing but success in your (and your family's) journey. How was vegecated? It looks interesting...

84woolf

Documentaries are designed to create an emotional response. They tend to only give one viewpoint in a very skewed way. I would never base my diet, or anything else in my life, on something a film maker created. At most, they should start you thinking and cause you to do actual research into the topic where you, as the responsible, intelligent adult you are, can find sources from both sides and then make an informed decision, not a knee jerk, "a documentary said this" decision.

Good post - & right that they are geared normally to one viewpoint.
THAT SAID - the vast majority of documentaries now & especially of the past are not made to be propaganda pieces (there are exceptions).
Most people/groups who set out to make a DOCUMENTARY, are interested in the TRUTH or in revealing something not "normally" known - & set out to identify/expose/or enlighten others.
I wouldnt discount documentaries. Definetely actual research is crucial- even then, serious diligence & discretion has to be given...look who has funded said research? The dairy industry is notorious for funding the studies that turn out in their favour.
Not saying its all a conspiracy...its just difficult to weed through legitimate sources.

queenbelove

People aren't going to stop eating meat. I would rather people support local farms, and grass-fed/ humanely raised animals. I'm speaking as a vet, too!! People love their meat, our bodies love meat- so rather than black and white, all or nothing, educating folk and encouraging people to eat local is really the way to go. I was vegan and/or vegetarian for a long time and had lots of GI issues which pretty much went away when I began to eat meat again. I eat consciously, locally- it's expensive but I vote with my dollars. Support local farms, happy local animals (who you can see and visit!) and decentralize large factory farms- whether you're an omnivore or vegetarian.

Interesting...I have digestive problems that get worse with dairy and meat (beef in particular). Did you start back eating only grass fed meat? Just wondering.

CoachReddy

RE: The China Study and the site I was referenced to with criticisms. I was perusing the comments after reading the blog, and turns out not only did Campbell respond to the criticisms, but there has been a tennis match between the two unfolding. Here's some (long) but extremely interesting info tied into a comment I found on the page:

I like Harriette Hall, but I’ve found that her views on diet not particularly well-informed. I’m not sure if she has an ax to grind – I kind of get that impression. She accepts Denise Minger’s work – sad to say – unskeptically. T. Collin Campbell’s work is a collaborative effort that has been through (and survived) extensive peer review for over 20 years. Minger’s work appears to be just her own blogging while she works on her English degree. Hall’s uncritical acceptance of Minger’s work diminishes her credibility, in my eyes.

Denise Minger doesn’t have the training, experience, or credibility, in my view, to topple the likes of T. Colin Campbell with her rather sarcastic analysis and response. She is a lay person who is intelligent and interested in statistics and diet. Nothing wrong with that, but she is not a relative expert in either field. Her understanding of human biology and digestion (based on other blog entries) is rudimentary. Her own dietary recommendations are in line with the folks at the Westin A. Price foundation (who have their own questionable ideology and agenda – check out their website). That of course doesn’t mean that her views on Campbell’s methodology are therefore wrong, but it does put a bit of a foul smell in the air. Is she really going where the evidence takes her, and is she trained, experienced and unbiased enough to perform this sort of analysis? I’m skeptical of that, and her blog certainly doesn’t make much of a case for this (it is, however, just a blog, and she has every right to her opinions). I was dismayed to read her embarassing dismissal of the academic work of previous generations. She appears to think that young people like herself, working in their apartments, simply because they have access to the Internet, can do as scholarly a job as lifelong academics and scientists were able to do 30 years ago. Please!

Here is Colin Campbell’s response:

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html
or in PDF version, http://www.tcolincampbell.org/fileadmin/Presentation/finalmingercritique.pdf

I found his rebuttal effective. To his credit, Campbell was also respectful and didn’t resort to routine ad hominems, which (again, sad to say) I picked up from both Hall and Minger towards Campbell. Campbell comes across as a serious academic, while Minger comes across as, frankly, a college student. Sorry about the ad hominem!

The claims of vegetarians (or skeptics, or anybody for that matter) can be assessed using a standard baloney detection kit (http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/06/baloney-detection-kit/).

i'm still going to work through all those links, but it's definitely interesting. And it's a GREAT point that just as we should be skeptical of the results of the China Study, we should also be skeptical of the skeptics and hold them to the same standard!

brower47

Documentaries are designed to create an emotional response. They tend to only give one viewpoint in a very skewed way. I would never base my diet, or anything else in my life, on something a film maker created. At most, they should start you thinking and cause you to do actual research into the topic where you, as the responsible, intelligent adult you are, can find sources from both sides and then make an informed decision, not a knee jerk, "a documentary said this" decision.

Good post - & right that they are geared normally to one viewpoint.
THAT SAID - documentaries now & especially of the past are not made to be propaganda pieces.
Most people/groups who set out to make a DOCUMENTARY, are interested in the TRUTH or in revealing something not "normally" known.
I wouldnt discount documentaries. Definetely actual research - even then, serious diligence & discretion has to be given...look who has funded said research? The dairy industry is notorious for funding the studies that turn out in their favour.
Not saying its all a conspiracy...its just difficult to weed through legitimate sources.

I never said discount documentaries. I said you shouldn't base any part of your life solely on them but that they should make you do more research. As far as the rest of your post, I'm not interested in discussing/debating your politics on the matter of dairy.

84woolf

Documentaries are designed to create an emotional response. They tend to only give one viewpoint in a very skewed way. I would never base my diet, or anything else in my life, on something a film maker created. At most, they should start you thinking and cause you to do actual research into the topic where you, as the responsible, intelligent adult you are, can find sources from both sides and then make an informed decision, not a knee jerk, "a documentary said this" decision.

Good post - & right that they are geared normally to one viewpoint.
THAT SAID - documentaries now & especially of the past are not made to be propaganda pieces.
Most people/groups who set out to make a DOCUMENTARY, are interested in the TRUTH or in revealing something not "normally" known.
I wouldnt discount documentaries. Definetely actual research - even then, serious diligence & discretion has to be given...look who has funded said research? The dairy industry is notorious for funding the studies that turn out in their favour.
Not saying its all a conspiracy...its just difficult to weed through legitimate sources.

I never said discount documentaries. I said you shouldn't base any part of your life solely on them but that they should make you do more research. As far as the rest of your post, I'm not interested in discussing/debating your politics on the matter of dairy.

I didnt say that you said to discount documentaries. Matter of fact, I wasnt replying directly to you. "You" was a generalization, & I quoted your post so others could see what I was referencing.

As for my "politics" on dairy? Nice. Its not politics, its a plain & simple fact that they fund an extraordinary amount of "research." I didnt say whether thats good or bad - just to be aware of all sides.

queenbelove

Also- research showing meat making people sick is skewed. All the meat researched is from factory farmed animals who are fed large amounts of corn (etc) and not eating a natural diet they were evolved to eat. Cows fed corn and silage have an imbalanced fatty acid profile, favoring Omega 6 over Omega 3- increasing inflammatory mediators in the body. Same goes for chickens, and farmed salmon (incredibly inflammatory!!!). Increasing inflammatory mediators in the body is what encourages heart disease, not the meat itself. Vilifying meat this way is short sighted. Grass fed beef is actually quite high in Omega 3s. Just like venison- some of the healthiest meats out there!

And there is a lot to be said for moderation. No one needs a 16 oz steak, really.

I agree with your points about the animal's diet, and about moderation. There are many factors that contribute to an unhealthy body, and just not eating meat will not suddenly make someone healthy again. I actually think that was part of my problem before; however, I have trouble digesting meat, and the less I eat the better for me. Whatever works...moderation, or not at all.

queenbelove

Eat whole foods, not to much, mostly plants

Meat and dairy are good for you. Most bioligists / nutritionist agree on this.

My advice would be to work hard to improve your diet to include a greater variety of healthy vegetables. Vegitarian cookbooks are a great place to get ideas.

Fish
eggs
chicken breast
turkey breast
greek yogurt

Have a place in a healthy diet

Thanks for the advice. Outside of the greek yogurt I already eat those foods now. I have noticed that when I do eat more vegetables/whole foods I feel way more healthy (just a feeling though). I also feel fine when I eat eggs, but I have an actual medical allergy to them...so, maybe my body can't be trusted...

84woolf

Also- research showing meat making people sick is skewed. All the meat researched is from factory farmed animals who are fed large amounts of corn (etc) and not eating a natural diet they were evolved to eat. Cows fed corn and silage have an imbalanced fatty acid profile, favoring Omega 6 over Omega 3- increasing inflammatory mediators in the body. Same goes for chickens, and farmed salmon (incredibly inflammatory!!!). Increasing inflammatory mediators in the body is what encourages heart disease, not the meat itself. Vilifying meat this way is short sighted. Grass fed beef is actually quite high in Omega 3s. Just like venison- some of the healthiest meats out there!

And there is a lot to be said for moderation. No one needs a 16 oz steak, really.

I agree with your points about the animal's diet, and about moderation. There are many factors that contribute to an unhealthy body, and just not eating meat will not suddenly make someone healthy again. I actually think that was part of my problem before; however, I have trouble digesting meat, and the less I eat the better for me. Whatever works...moderation, or not at all.

I think moderation is key!

I often read the line "we've been eating meat since the dawn of man!"....generally true, but I find it comical that people seem to forget that the portion & frequency that "we" consumed meat was generally very little & sparse at best. Certainly not eating meat daily, sometimes at every meal.

ChrisR0se

I love extra meat...in fact I eat meat all day! I like juicy meat, dry meat, meat with gravy, meat in buns...I could live on meat!

CoachReddy

Legitimate criticism of The China Study written by these two guys. However:

Frank B Hu and Walter Willett of the Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, wrote in a letter to the editor in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 2000, that the China-Cornell-Oxford Project – not the book – had not found a clear association between animal-product consumption and heart disease or major cancers, although in 2010, in an article, "Healthy eating guide," Willet encouraged people to choose plant-based proteins over animal sources.[28]

More scientists who defend the Study:

Wilfred Niels Arnold, professor of biochemistry at the University of Kansas Medical Center, reviewed the book in Leonardo in 2005: "Any serious challenge to the 'American Diet' is bound to elicit some academic, public, and food industry opposition ... the authors anticipate resistant and hostile sources, sail on with escalating enthusiasm, and furnish a working hypothesis that is valuable. In fact, the surprising data are difficult to interpret in any other way.[29] Hal Harris of the University of Missouri–St. Louis's Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry recommended the book in 2006 in the Journal of Chemical Education: "The bottom line of this thoroughly-documented study is essentially that animal protein is not good for us—even milk, 'the perfect food.'"[30]

And another supporter who has access to all the best science and medicine available:

American President Bill Clinton became a vocal supporter of The China Study. In 2010, after years of living with heart disease, he undertook the diet, eating legumes, vegetables, fruit and a protein shake every morning, effectively living as a vegan.[2] Within a short period he had dropped 24 pounds, returning him to his college weight.[32] Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, said in his documentary The Last Heart Attack in August 2011 that The China Study had changed the way people all over the world eat, including Gupta himself.[33]

All this compared to criticism from a blogger who has no formal scientific training (Denise Minger)

queenbelove

Try reading the book, The China Study (the movie was based off some of the research found in this book). My family (in-laws and husband's extended family) follow this way of eating for health reasons as well as many of my friends. It is an amazing lifestyle. I strongly recommend checking it out if you were impressed by this movie. After that, make small changes at a time. Don't do it all at once. And even then, 80/20 is a good rule of thumb... eating this way 80 percent of the time and allowing yourself some dietary freedom 20 percent of the time.

Also, it is a shame so many on here are insulting and rude and are dismissing this lifestyle right off the bat without understanding the mounds of documented research that supports this way of life. Right down to showing links to breast cancer and liver cancer. Anyhow, I applaud your open minded attitude toward pursuing health.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your post. Actually, my doctor recommended the book to me a couple years ago. She felt like it would be beneficial for me to look into, since I'm always having digestive-related problems, and sensitivities. I didn't finish it (seeing as how I left for grad school shortly thereafter), but as I was watching the movie it suddenly clicked that Dr. Campbell's book was a part of it. 80/20 rule is great advice as well.

It is a shame. Dismissive I can tolerate, disagreeing/disapproving I can understand, but insulting my intelligence is just plain egregious behavior from adults on a food and nutrition board on a fitness website--although, I am not lost on the fact that this is the Internet, and a public forum. Still, who am I to complain? I posted it....