Another (potential) strike against red meat

dbmata

I like this part:

"Even after consuming a large amount of carnitine, vegans and vegetarians did not produce significant levels of TMAO, while omnivores did, according to the study in the current issue of the journal Nature Medicine."

So, even being part-time vegetarian has health benefits!

More likely they acknowledge that the carnitine isn't the issue, which would make me ask how their paper got into a tier 2 journal.

Carnitine is something we make, and use on a daily basis. I think the real takeaway here is that moderation is important. I still see no reason to be a vegetarian. There is also a term for part-time vegetarian.
Omnivore.

bcattoes

Also, I like red meat, I'd probably be dead if I didn't eat that and deep fried cod. I don't eat it allot but it's about the only place I get iron.

But it's probably not the only place you could get iron.

TheDevastator

@reddy - they are the greatest invention since butter. full stop. In some very rare situations they create problems but about 80 million + descendants of the population today is alive thanks to an antibiotic intervention. The number of deaths from resistant bugs isn't even 1% of 1% of 1% of the lives saved by antibiotics. They are awesome.

but the number of resistant bugs is climbing, is it not? and is this not due to our overuse of antibiotics in everything from food to the treatment of acne?

antibiotics don't also kill the good bacteria in your stomach leading to candida overgrowth and a plethora of other digestive disorders?

Some do kill gut bacteria. But sometimes killing good bacteria is secondary to killing bad. Long term low dose antibiotics are often used to treat some gut motility disorders.

There absolutely is overuse of antibiotics, but it's hard not to admit that they truly are awesome in general. WAY better than butter IMO.

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

I think he is messing 'best antibiotics' with 'the antibiotic in garlic'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allistatin

i sure hope so.
its like saying the best antiobiotics come from mushrooms.


otherwise its like saying penicillin and other antibiotics derive from shrooms
let me go out and go to the street side drug dealer buy some shrooms

The type of fungi is important. lol

DatMurse

The antibiotics/drugs are not the problem, rather, the behavior of physicians and patients who insist on over-utilizing them is the problem.

Medexpress is the perfect example, they hand out antibiotics like candy. Additionally, misguided patients with viral infections mistakenly request antibiotics.

I completely agree.
I saw a post where someone was prescribed antibiotics for BASIC ACNE


@coach reddy I am sure there is plenty of shadiness of the pharmaceutical industry.
The whole thing with curing aids. Lets talk about that.

I am a nursing student. I want to help many people out there.


Society believe that they have some sort of right to full blown healthcare and pharmaceutical drugs.
We are cheating death with all of these drugs and treatments.

People are becoming too needy with blaming things on the pharmaceutical industry, attacking them, and attacking healthcare in general.

If people have such a big problem with it. You do not have to go out and get treatment for anything and be "completely natural"

CoachReddy

neandermagnon, as I noted in my previous post, there's a groundswell of this kind of research now - and my point was simply that it might require a bit more thought than the kind of 'who cares, I like my bacon' posts that characterised the earlier part of my thread.

This isn't an isolated study though - to suggest it is is simply wrong. Use google scholar.


(and clearly I didn't make it clear enough in my first post: I don't have any particular issue with people eating red meat, or any other kind of meat.)

your reply to the other post hadn't appeared when I replied.

the idea that red meat in and of itself causes these problems is problematic in the face of other evidence (like that it's sulphur and/or other things in processed meat that result in changes in gut bacteria, not the actual red meat itself)... I haven't read every single study, I went to university ten years ago, I'm not claiming that I know everything about it, but you can't say that someone is being unscientific just because they don't change their diets on the basis of one study.

if red meat itself was that bad, then that leaves a big problem from an evolutionary point of view, i.e. because every species of human ate it in one form or another... which is why I find it very hard to believe that red meat in and of itself causes this problem. I'm inclined to think it's more likely to be a balance issue, i.e. red meat without certain other things in the diet, or farmed and/or industralised/processed red meat that's the issue. 3 million years* of eating wild red meat is not likely to result in red meat in and of itself being bad for humans.

*probably a lot more than that, because chimps eat monkeys and maybe australopithecines did too before humans even evolved, but I'm not aware of any specific evidence to prove that they did... Homo habilis ate red meat (there's archaeological evidence to prove it) and all human species since then.

The study does not suggest that it is red meat in and of itself but proposes a carnitine-bacteria mechanism. Nor is the idea that meat "quality" has any impact supported/denied.

A hypothesis is built: bacteria -> increase TMA -> increase TMAO -> increase atherosclerosis. That should be easy to test either by increasing the specific bacteria or eliminating it and looking downstream. This is the study in a nutshell, not red meat is bad.

And it is one atherosclerosis factor - is it more important than maintaining a healthy weight? Not currently. The study doesn't even begin to address the multi factorial elements.

That makes more sense. Although i really don't think you can blame red meat on any particular gut bacteria (not saying you or the study are doing this, but that's how it's being interpreted)... about 10 years ago when I was at uni there were studies saying sulphates in processed meat = bad gut bacteria = I can't remember what problems... but bad gut bacteria itself can come from all kinds of factors, not just diet but (for example) being too hygienic and sterilising everything, whether you have a pet, many things.

The idea that atheriosclerosis can be treated with antibiotics or the right kind of probiotics (the latter I think would be better) is a very interesting one anyway)

Let's modify that and say "the idea of treating possibly one risk/factor out of many" ...

@Zyntx - was was referring to the biological cost, not the financial cost. Not a fan of antibiotics, though yes, in some cases, they're a necessary evil.

@reddy - they are the greatest invention since butter. full stop. In some very rare situations they create problems but about 80 million + descendants of the population today is alive thanks to an antibiotic intervention. The number of deaths from resistant bugs isn't even 1% of 1% of 1% of the lives saved by antibiotics. They are awesome.

but the number of resistant bugs is climbing, is it not? and is this not due to our overuse of antibiotics in everything from food to the treatment of acne?

antibiotics don't also kill the good bacteria in your stomach leading to candida overgrowth and a plethora of other digestive disorders?

yes, the number of resistant bacteria is climbing. No, it is mostlz due to improper treatment courses which selects for specific hardier bacteria MRSA is not due to antibiotic use in food husbandry.

and no, antibiotics can lead to other disorders but rarely do. It is not a given. No one is suggesting they be used as a chronic first line treatment for artherosclerosis. Just like no one uses them as the chronic standard of treatment for H. Pylori for ulcers.

edit - But they could be used as a start treatment.

your second statement is absolutely, and unequivocally wrong. it is not at all rare. unfortunately your perspective is horribly biased since you worked in pharmaceuticals. of course you think they can do no wrong.

^This is the problem I have with you reddy, you lie. Nowhere did he say that pharmaceuticals can do no wrong. He made it quite clear that he doesn't think that. Why do you always lie, it drives me crazy watching you in threads making things up and then people read them, probably don't read the 20 pages of infinite quotes before it, and assume they made that claim. Stop it.

no that's fair in this particular case since he clearly did admit they can do wrong. haha. I am prone to typing emotionally instead of thinking out my posts sometimes.

however he did say they were the best invention since butter.

and people constantly say things that I "think" or that I've "said" that aren't true. How many times have I been called orthorexic? It's a message board - grow some thicker skin. at the end of the day I've got nothing against any of you because I don't know you - it's just fun to debate and learn about nutrition-y stuff. I don't take it personally. None of us should.

but at the same time you need to understand the base of knowledge to create a full argument


Disorder is defined as - a derangement or abnormality of function; a morbid physical or mental state.

While anti-biotics may cause some problems such as hepatoxicity. the other alternative of not taking anything is letting the bacteria kill you

acne will kill you? the point is that antibiotics are OVERPRESCRIBED even when they're not necessary, and they can cause severe issues

don't take my word for it:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/killing-beneficial-bacteria/
http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=179671

do you trust NYU?

CoderGal

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

Raw garlic is a good antibiotic because it targets the bad bacteria leaving the good.
It's more a preventative antibiotic than a treatment.

This calls for a picture show.

CoachReddy

The antibiotics/drugs are not the problem, rather, the behavior of physicians and patients who insist on over-utilizing them is the problem.

Medexpress is the perfect example, they hand out antibiotics like candy. Additionally, misguided patients with viral infections mistakenly request antibiotics.

I completely agree.
I saw a post where someone was prescribed antibiotics for BASIC ACNE


@coach reddy I am sure there is plenty of shadiness of the pharmaceutical industry.
The whole thing with curing aids. Lets talk about that.

I am a nursing student. I want to help many people out there.


Society believe that they have some sort of right to full blown healthcare and pharmaceutical drugs.
We are cheating death with all of these drugs and treatments.

People are becoming too needy with blaming things on the pharmaceutical industry, attacking them, and attacking healthcare in general.

If people have such a big problem with it. You do not have to go out and get treatment for anything and be "completely natural"

I was on antibiotics for years at a time as a kid to treat acne. who knows what the hell that did to my stomach - may have been a factor in all the issues I've been dealing with with my gut/voice the last couple years.

DatMurse

The antibiotics/drugs are not the problem, rather, the behavior of physicians and patients who insist on over-utilizing them is the problem.

Medexpress is the perfect example, they hand out antibiotics like candy. Additionally, misguided patients with viral infections mistakenly request antibiotics.

I completely agree.
I saw a post where someone was prescribed antibiotics for BASIC ACNE


@coach reddy I am sure there is plenty of shadiness of the pharmaceutical industry.
The whole thing with curing aids. Lets talk about that.

I am a nursing student. I want to help many people out there.


Society believe that they have some sort of right to full blown healthcare and pharmaceutical drugs.
We are cheating death with all of these drugs and treatments.

People are becoming too needy with blaming things on the pharmaceutical industry, attacking them, and attacking healthcare in general.

If people have such a big problem with it. You do not have to go out and get treatment for anything and be "completely natural"

I was on antibiotics for years at a time as a kid to treat acne. who knows what the hell that did to my stomach - may have been a factor in all the issues I've been dealing with with my gut/voice the last couple years.

Was that basic acne or a bacteria growing on you?

That is because your doctor was probably a moron.
i would be more worried about liver, kidneys, and gi tract.


are you sure it was antibiotics? do you know what it was?

TheDevastator

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

Raw garlic is a good antibiotic because it targets the bad bacteria leaving the good.
It's more a preventative antibiotic than a treatment.

This calls for a picture show.

LMAO

CoachReddy

The antibiotics/drugs are not the problem, rather, the behavior of physicians and patients who insist on over-utilizing them is the problem.

Medexpress is the perfect example, they hand out antibiotics like candy. Additionally, misguided patients with viral infections mistakenly request antibiotics.

I completely agree.
I saw a post where someone was prescribed antibiotics for BASIC ACNE


@coach reddy I am sure there is plenty of shadiness of the pharmaceutical industry.
The whole thing with curing aids. Lets talk about that.

I am a nursing student. I want to help many people out there.


Society believe that they have some sort of right to full blown healthcare and pharmaceutical drugs.
We are cheating death with all of these drugs and treatments.

People are becoming too needy with blaming things on the pharmaceutical industry, attacking them, and attacking healthcare in general.

If people have such a big problem with it. You do not have to go out and get treatment for anything and be "completely natural"

I was on antibiotics for years at a time as a kid to treat acne. who knows what the hell that did to my stomach - may have been a factor in all the issues I've been dealing with with my gut/voice the last couple years.

Was that basic acne or a bacteria growing on you?

That is because your doctor was probably a moron.
i would be more worried about liver, kidneys, and gi tract.


are you sure it was antibiotics? do you know what it was?

Tetracycline, doxycycline. However they're spelled

jonnythan

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

Raw garlic is a good antibiotic because it targets the bad bacteria leaving the good.
It's more a preventative antibiotic than a treatment.

Wow, I wonder how garlic got so smart.

Raw garlic is not an antibiotic.

bcattoes

As exciting as your personal opinions on antibiotics are, could we please get back on topic? You can start a thread for antibiotics if you'd like.

DatMurse

The antibiotics/drugs are not the problem, rather, the behavior of physicians and patients who insist on over-utilizing them is the problem.

Medexpress is the perfect example, they hand out antibiotics like candy. Additionally, misguided patients with viral infections mistakenly request antibiotics.

I completely agree.
I saw a post where someone was prescribed antibiotics for BASIC ACNE


@coach reddy I am sure there is plenty of shadiness of the pharmaceutical industry.
The whole thing with curing aids. Lets talk about that.

I am a nursing student. I want to help many people out there.


Society believe that they have some sort of right to full blown healthcare and pharmaceutical drugs.
We are cheating death with all of these drugs and treatments.

People are becoming too needy with blaming things on the pharmaceutical industry, attacking them, and attacking healthcare in general.

If people have such a big problem with it. You do not have to go out and get treatment for anything and be "completely natural"

I was on antibiotics for years at a time as a kid to treat acne. who knows what the hell that did to my stomach - may have been a factor in all the issues I've been dealing with with my gut/voice the last couple years.

Was that basic acne or a bacteria growing on you?

That is because your doctor was probably a moron.
i would be more worried about liver, kidneys, and gi tract.


are you sure it was antibiotics? do you know what it was?

Tetracycline, doxycycline. However they're spelled

either way.

if your doctor kept you on those for years for basic acne and basic acne alone

he is a moron

CorvusCorax77

Wow, I wonder how garlic got so smart.

Raw garlic is not an antibiotic.

It is anti-bacterial and anti-fungal.

ETA: OP, I have no opinion on red meat. I haven't had any in almost 20 years.

TheDevastator

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

Raw garlic is a good antibiotic because it targets the bad bacteria leaving the good.
It's more a preventative antibiotic than a treatment.

Wow, I wonder how garlic got so smart.

Raw garlic is not an antibiotic.

It actually is, so are ginger, peppermint and lavender.

"Natural spices of garlic and ginger possess effective anti-bacterial activity against multi-drug clinical pathogens and can be used for prevention of drug resistant microbial diseases and further evaluation is necessary."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23569978

DatMurse

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

Raw garlic is a good antibiotic because it targets the bad bacteria leaving the good.
It's more a preventative antibiotic than a treatment.

Wow, I wonder how garlic got so smart.

Raw garlic is not an antibiotic.

It actually is, so are ginger, peppermint and lavender.

"Natural spices of garlic and ginger possess effective anti-bacterial activity against multi-drug clinical pathogens and can be used for prevention of drug resistant microbial diseases and further evaluation is necessary."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23569978

it has some.
but you would have to extract it and process it to create a pill.
not saying it isnt possible but you would have to have large doses of it

jonnythan

One of the best antibiotics is raw garlic.

what are you smoking?

Cause I wanna get on that too.


Antibiotics will kill normal flora, so you are saying that garlic will kill all the bacteria in my system?
if that happens I wont be able to properly digest things and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

how about this
when you have a kid, dont give him any bacterial vaccines and stick to garlic.


let me know how that works for you

Raw garlic is a good antibiotic because it targets the bad bacteria leaving the good.
It's more a preventative antibiotic than a treatment.

Wow, I wonder how garlic got so smart.

Raw garlic is not an antibiotic.

It actually is, so are ginger, peppermint and lavender.

"Natural spices of garlic and ginger possess effective anti-bacterial activity against multi-drug clinical pathogens and can be used for prevention of drug resistant microbial diseases and further evaluation is necessary."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23569978

Did you read their methods?

They applied garlic extract to bacterial cultures. It's anti-bacterial. This does not mean it has any function or use as an antibiotic in vivo.

The claim "raw garlic is a strong antibiotic" is simply not true.

BeinAwesome247

Good time to be vegetarian.

no it isnt

oh really? Most vegetables are modified as well....so unless you're going totally organic....
And 90% of soy is genetically modified as well

bcattoes

Good time to be vegetarian.

no it isnt

oh really? Most vegetables are modified as well....so unless you're going totally organic....
And 90% of soy is genetically modified as well

Does that make vegetables bad for us?

mlcantwell

It takes many studies and lots of data to start to understand a new concept and accept something as fact. One study is not something to get freaked out about.