Suicide Warning

smiley245

This is really interesting to me because I have autoimmune issues. Where did the info come from?

originally from my Dr, but I looked it up online (quickly) on mayo clinic,

Im all for alternative medicine, but just because something is natural doesnt mean it is the best option out there.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

Okay... well not everyone in the world is just like you. It must be nice to see the world with rose-colored glasses, but the fact of the matter is that doctors are human. And humans develop biases even if they don't realize it. Sales reps go out of their way to build relationships with doctors so that doctors will be more inclined to prescribe their product over a competitors. That is how the industry works. Sure, it sounds a bit malignant, but that is how its always been.

Rationality and logic are the polar opposite of rose-colored glasses. The use of meals and gifts of cake or the like is meant to get the drug rep's foot in the door. The value of these gifts is severely limited, specifically to limit undue influence. The drug rep gets the prescriber's ear long enough to pitch the new drug. The doc gets free samples to hand out to patients. The doc then will usually try them out on a patient who has failed to get sufficient relief from other established drugs for the condition. If that patient reports back that the new drug worked the doc will prescribe it for that patient, as well as keeping it in mind for future patients. That is how it works. If the drug cannot stand on its own merits the doc is NOT going to prescribe it just because they got a free meal.

Okay... but doctors build relationships with the sales reps over the course of years. Most drugs that are presented by the sales rep have already been thoroughly vetted to prove their merits. Sure, the doc is going to take feedback from his patients, but if all things are equal, then the doc is going to prescribe the drugs of the sales rep he likes best first. Then, if his patients don't like it, he will offer them the other guy's drug.

Bias is usually not a concious decision. You know that, right?

Personally, I hate all the reps I work with. They are almost always snakeoil salesman, pushing biased information and schmoozing everyone. When you walk into these relationships, you know what their motivation is. You take everything you see amnd hear from them with a grain of salt, and you do independent research to find studies and somparisons that were not funded or performed by the manufacturers of the products. Yes, I have a relationship with them, but I have also been known to tell them that their product is crap, and why. This allows them to take the criticism back to their product design guys and work to improve it.

I know the way the FDA approval process works, and how making mods is a decades long process at best. What I am talking about is more unregulated products that are brought to my attention.

I can tell you how the decision process is handled at my facility. There is a pharmacy and therapeutics committee with about 15-20 members from pharmacy, nursing, administrators and providers. I sat on that committee for a coupl eof years. Any drug that someone wanted to have prescribed had to be propsoed, and then evaluated with peer-reviewed journals, and then it was discussed in committee, and then voted on before being sent to the Clinical Executive Board for final approval. That's a lot of people a drug rep would have to pay off, or establish relationships strong with to exhibit undue influence.

Kimdbro

So today I picked up a prescription for a sleep aid the doctor called in for me at the pharmacy and stapled to it was a suicide warning note. Ok weird...

I proceed to read more about the medication (still unsure about whether I'm going to take it) and I find out the doc has called in an anti depressant /anxiety med to help me with sleep. Totally confused at this point. I read further and apparently this drug helps with the treatment of insomnia is one of the "other" uses.

The doctor must have lost her mind if she thinks I'm taking this medication with no history/signs of depression/anxiety. I think I'll just be content with my lack of sleep. Thankfully I have good insurance and didn't pay much for it but it makes me wonder what kind of kick back she's getting from the drug manufacturer. :ohwell:

what medication is it? (you don't have to answer, but i work at a psych hospital so i'm curious)

lots of medicines have multiple uses. example, many medicines for sleep are also used for anxiety disorders. I don't think your doc is insinuating that you're depressed or suicidal, it's simply that the same meds can be used to treat different things! try not to read too much into it.

^^This^^ my smoking cessation prescription was a drug originally designed for depression. Which frankly, kind of makes sense since quitting smoking was the most depressing thing I'd ever experienced, I felt like I'd lost a friend.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

I know people are recomending Melatonin, and have had great success with it, but be forewarned even this has side effects.
I for one have been advised not to take it as it can interfere with with my condition/medication.

"Melatonin can influence immune function and it's not known how it affects people with autoimmune conditions such as multiple sclerosis, psoriasis, Crohn's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and type 1 diabetes.

Melatonin supplements may worsen the symptoms in people with depression, so people with depression should only use melatonin under the supervision of a health care provider. Melatonin is broken down by the liver, so people with liver disease should avoid melatonin.

Possible Drug Interactions
Melatonin may interact with the following drugs:

•High blood pressure medication

•Drugs that suppress the immune system, such as cyclosporine

•Antidepressant medication

•Corticosteroids (used for inflammatory conditions such as arthritis)

•Benzodiazepines, such as diazepam (Valium), and other drugs that cause sedation

•Herbs that cause sleepiness or drowsiness, such as kava kava and valerian

•The herb St. John's wort "


I did take trazadone (half the starter dose when needed) no ill side effects back then,
I will mention that I now take benadryl (or generic equivalent), as per recomended by my dr...I don't think she gets a kickback

edit to add: talk to your dr, ask questions and decide from there what will work best for you.

Thanks Doll!

GregLeatherman

google melatonin, it is used as a sleep aid and is natural, maybe it is an alternative for you.

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview

if a doctor doesnt mention melatonin first hes an idiot

Yes, please look into melatonin. Not only is it cheap and effective, it has been shown to aid in weight lost through tandem effects of better rest and encouraging the body to make human growth hormone naturally. I wouldn't take it all the time, but if you just need to balance your moods and sleep patterns, it's worth researching.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

Drug reps leave gifts, buy meals for Dr offices, and all kinds of things just so the doctor will prescribe their brand of pharmaceuticals. That's for all their products, not just the latest and greatest. Even if the product has gone generic, the company that created the formula gets a portion of the sales for all generics for up to 7 years after the generic has been authorized. This is a pretty common practice with the medical community and Big Pharma.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Free meal = doctors in thrall to a drug company. Yup. That's completely reasonable. :laugh:

Well if someone selling anything bought you lunch, wouldn't you be more inclined to recommend their product to your friends, family members, and co-workers. Same difference.

Not really. Do you think you can buy my integrity for a $10 lunch? Not to mention that their competition will be in the next week with a similar lunch. The lunch is a nicety brought in to get people in to hear the pitch.

The product needs to sell itself, or the rep has to be a smooth talker and do a great job selling their product in order for me to be convinced that it's something I have a need for, and that they meet all of my needs at the lowest price in order for me to consider purchasing the good sor services.

This is your moral standard, but many people WILL shell out integrity for cash...Are you blind? Have you seen this country?

Even if my integrity were for sale, you would have to weigh the risk/benefits of it. A $10 lunch is not worth a 6 or 7 figure lawsuit for malpractice.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

I think docs are just as much prisoners to the modern medical system as we are. Pharmaceuticals are all that they are legally ALLOWED to prescribe in many jurisdictions. My doc told me that he could lose his license for telling a patient about a more natural herb or supplement.

Horse crap.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

Drug reps leave gifts, buy meals for Dr offices, and all kinds of things just so the doctor will prescribe their brand of pharmaceuticals. That's for all their products, not just the latest and greatest. Even if the product has gone generic, the company that created the formula gets a portion of the sales for all generics for up to 7 years after the generic has been authorized. This is a pretty common practice with the medical community and Big Pharma.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Free meal = doctors in thrall to a drug company. Yup. That's completely reasonable. :laugh:

Well if someone selling anything bought you lunch, wouldn't you be more inclined to recommend their product to your friends, family members, and co-workers. Same difference.

Not really. Do you think you can buy my integrity for a $10 lunch? Not to mention that their competition will be in the next week with a similar lunch. The lunch is a nicety brought in to get people in to hear the pitch.

The product needs to sell itself, or the rep has to be a smooth talker and do a great job selling their product in order for me to be convinced that it's something I have a need for, and that they meet all of my needs at the lowest price in order for me to consider purchasing the good sor services.

It's not about buying integrity. It's about making the physicians feel knowledgeable and comfortable with the drugs. It works, but it's not nearly as sinister as people think.

Correct. It just seems there are a lot of people here who are saying a provider will sell their integrity for a free lunch and a cymbalta pen.

jonnythan

Drug reps leave gifts, buy meals for Dr offices, and all kinds of things just so the doctor will prescribe their brand of pharmaceuticals. That's for all their products, not just the latest and greatest. Even if the product has gone generic, the company that created the formula gets a portion of the sales for all generics for up to 7 years after the generic has been authorized. This is a pretty common practice with the medical community and Big Pharma.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Free meal = doctors in thrall to a drug company. Yup. That's completely reasonable. :laugh:

Well if someone selling anything bought you lunch, wouldn't you be more inclined to recommend their product to your friends, family members, and co-workers. Same difference.

Not really. Do you think you can buy my integrity for a $10 lunch? Not to mention that their competition will be in the next week with a similar lunch. The lunch is a nicety brought in to get people in to hear the pitch.

The product needs to sell itself, or the rep has to be a smooth talker and do a great job selling their product in order for me to be convinced that it's something I have a need for, and that they meet all of my needs at the lowest price in order for me to consider purchasing the good sor services.

It's not about buying integrity. It's about making the physicians feel knowledgeable and comfortable with the drugs. It works, but it's not nearly as sinister as people think.

Correct. It just seems there are a lot of people here who are saying a provider will sell their integrity for a free lunch and a cymbalta pen.

I dunno man. Pens are currency in the ER the way cigarettes are currency in prison.

clarkeje1

I'm in the psychology field and this doesn't sound abnormal to me

mrsjas2000

many meds have several uses, my migraine meds have many side affects and for some reason if I don't get all of them then it doesn't get rid of my headache either. My daughter is using acne cream for stretch marks, I say as long as it works that is a bonus for me

UsedToBeHusky

Drug reps leave gifts, buy meals for Dr offices, and all kinds of things just so the doctor will prescribe their brand of pharmaceuticals. That's for all their products, not just the latest and greatest. Even if the product has gone generic, the company that created the formula gets a portion of the sales for all generics for up to 7 years after the generic has been authorized. This is a pretty common practice with the medical community and Big Pharma.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Free meal = doctors in thrall to a drug company. Yup. That's completely reasonable. :laugh:

Well if someone selling anything bought you lunch, wouldn't you be more inclined to recommend their product to your friends, family members, and co-workers. Same difference.

Not really. Do you think you can buy my integrity for a $10 lunch? Not to mention that their competition will be in the next week with a similar lunch. The lunch is a nicety brought in to get people in to hear the pitch.

The product needs to sell itself, or the rep has to be a smooth talker and do a great job selling their product in order for me to be convinced that it's something I have a need for, and that they meet all of my needs at the lowest price in order for me to consider purchasing the good sor services.

It's not about buying integrity. It's about making the physicians feel knowledgeable and comfortable with the drugs. It works, but it's not nearly as sinister as people think.

Correct. It just seems there are a lot of people here who are saying a provider will sell their integrity for a free lunch and a cymbalta pen.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the little gifts will cause the doctor to unwittingly develop a bias. Legitimate pharmaceutical companies wouldn't put a drug in a doctor's hand if they didn't know that it would work. It's not about tricking doctors into handing out placebos. It's about beating out the competition with every advantage possible.

laele75

I take an anti-depressant to sleep. With fibromyalgia, comes insomnia. It's actually better than taking a sleeping medicine, which generally just knock you out for hours. Truth is, lack of sleep is one of the WORST things for your body and nobody should 'take' poor sleep to avoid possible side effects that as someone before me said, are put there so the company doesn't get sued if you have this rare side effect.

I have taken anti-depressants for sleep for six years. I have never once had a suicidal thought in my life. And I always get the worst side effects of any medicine. When I wasn't taking the medicine, I couldn't sleep for more than four hours and was always exhausted, crabby, and depressed. Americans especially have a bad habit of considering sleep a 'luxury', which is part of the reason we're in such poor health.

Take the medicine, sleep better. If it doesn't work, go back to your doctor for something else.

xLexa

Drug reps leave gifts, buy meals for Dr offices, and all kinds of things just so the doctor will prescribe their brand of pharmaceuticals. That's for all their products, not just the latest and greatest. Even if the product has gone generic, the company that created the formula gets a portion of the sales for all generics for up to 7 years after the generic has been authorized. This is a pretty common practice with the medical community and Big Pharma.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Free meal = doctors in thrall to a drug company. Yup. That's completely reasonable. :laugh:

Well if someone selling anything bought you lunch, wouldn't you be more inclined to recommend their product to your friends, family members, and co-workers. Same difference.

Not really. Do you think you can buy my integrity for a $10 lunch? Not to mention that their competition will be in the next week with a similar lunch. The lunch is a nicety brought in to get people in to hear the pitch.

The product needs to sell itself, or the rep has to be a smooth talker and do a great job selling their product in order for me to be convinced that it's something I have a need for, and that they meet all of my needs at the lowest price in order for me to consider purchasing the good sor services.

It's not about buying integrity. It's about making the physicians feel knowledgeable and comfortable with the drugs. It works, but it's not nearly as sinister as people think.

Correct. It just seems there are a lot of people here who are saying a provider will sell their integrity for a free lunch and a cymbalta pen.

I dunno man. Pens are currency in the ER the way cigarettes are currency in prison.

ok you made me laugh with the pens = currency remark - no sarcasm btw :P

In no way did I tell the OP to take melatonin I said it might be an alternative and something she could research or look into. My blase attitude about Docs taking backhanders might not have been appropriate however I stand by the fact that it does happen, not with all doctors but it does.

I feel that many doctors do have the "let me get you more pills attitude" as opposed to lets find out what the underlying cause might be. Truthfully the quick fix is what many patients want. I am a "questioner" I do not like to pop pills without knowing why, when if and is there an alternative that might work for me. (or my family/children)

To the OP, like others have said, I would talk with the Doc ( as I did in my own recent situation regarding my child) research alternatives and talk to her about those too. Melatonin was one that came to mind because it was something I personally knew of that was effective, Unisom, was another, it was originally for something else also but is now used as a sleep aid. Just do your research and ask the questions. Good luck.

RobynDCrossman

Many drugs are multi-use.

UsedToBeHusky

Drug reps leave gifts, buy meals for Dr offices, and all kinds of things just so the doctor will prescribe their brand of pharmaceuticals. That's for all their products, not just the latest and greatest. Even if the product has gone generic, the company that created the formula gets a portion of the sales for all generics for up to 7 years after the generic has been authorized. This is a pretty common practice with the medical community and Big Pharma.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Free meal = doctors in thrall to a drug company. Yup. That's completely reasonable. :laugh:

Well if someone selling anything bought you lunch, wouldn't you be more inclined to recommend their product to your friends, family members, and co-workers. Same difference.

Not really. Do you think you can buy my integrity for a $10 lunch? Not to mention that their competition will be in the next week with a similar lunch. The lunch is a nicety brought in to get people in to hear the pitch.

The product needs to sell itself, or the rep has to be a smooth talker and do a great job selling their product in order for me to be convinced that it's something I have a need for, and that they meet all of my needs at the lowest price in order for me to consider purchasing the good sor services.

This is your moral standard, but many people WILL shell out integrity for cash...Are you blind? Have you seen this country?

Even if my integrity were for sale, you would have to weigh the risk/benefits of it. A $10 lunch is not worth a 6 or 7 figure lawsuit for malpractice.

You are not fully understanding my point. We are not talking about a doctor giving someone a drug they know doesn't work just because the guy from Lilly gave him a mousepad. I'm talking about a doctor favoring one proven medication above another because the sales rep came by and bought him lunch. Sure, while he was there, the sale rep gave him lots of information about the drug for the doctor to believe that it would work for his patients. But there is another drug on the market that is just as effective with less side effects. The only difference is that company didn't send a sales rep to buy him lunch so the doc didn't get the information. The doc didn't take the time to do the research and compare the two so he just prescribed the one over the other.

This happens all the time. I'm not saying that doctors are taking bribes. I'm saying that they are human, and busy, and don't look into other options for their patients unless the patients ask for other options.

Heaven71

Not that I'm aware of.

I've been having trouble sleeping lately and called inquiring about whether the dosage for my thyroid could be off, causing me to wake after a few hours of sleep. I spoke with the nurse, who in turn spoke with the doctor, and she thought a sleep aid might help. So I figured I'd try it or at least have it for weeks where I just can't sleep. I'm definitely not taking it now.

Melatonin always worked well for me. Natural and no prescrition needed best of all no suicidal side affects. Good Luck!

phoo513

Warm milk before bed, relaxation tapes, counting sheep, romping w/ a S.O., warm baths in lavendar scents........I agree there are many other things to try that do not come w/ suicide prevention warnings!

jadoakes

Agreed. Trazadone is wonderful as a sleep aid and prescribed for that use all the time. The only thing about it is that you want to go to bed as soon as you take it - it causes a lot of people to get restless legs.

seena511

lots of medicines treat multiple conditions. just look at viagra.