Why do people get so provoked by vegans?

Most people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.

Then you are not being as polite and accepting as you think you are. Sometimes when we think that we are just stating our opinion in a non-confrontational way, we are really coming across as judgmental.

I have vegan friends. We have no problem being with each other. I don't try to get them to change, they don't try to get me to change.

It's not veganism that bothers people.

For example: I have met people for lunch who don't know I'm vegan. I try to make my veganism transparent by calling ahead to make ordering food simple and easy, and not revealing my veganism. When the food comes, it's plants and the person I'm with will sometimes ask 'Are you vegetarian?' When I answer truthfully, they often ask 'Why?' I used to answer truthfully, but now I just say 'This isn't a good time to discuss that.' Some people still persist, or get defensive. I truthfully don't like ruining people's dinners or highlighting differences. Other than lying, I really have no clue how I could be more polite and accepting in circumstances like this.

I would like to say that I have read a lot of your posts and you are a great example of a vegan who is outspoken and still polite and respectful to people that disagree with you

Because the welfare of my food is, necessarily, secondary (at best) to my own.
That's the fundamental difference. Where you see yourself in the scheme of things versus where I see myself.

Does this mean that you think people are vegan because they don't have adequate self-esteem? I'm really asking - this is the internet and sometimes it's hard to glean the real meaning of what's written.

I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.

I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.

Dogs eat animals, I don't eat dogs.
Cats eat animals, I don't eat cats.
Birds eat animals, I don't eat birds.
Cattle doesn't eat animals - I wonder if that's why they taste so good. I eat beef.
Giraffe's don't eat meat - hmmm...
Humans eat animals, I don't eat humans.

Just thinking out loud.

LOL... and since when do animals have welfare?

No, I am not taking this topic seriously.

If you don't want to eat animals, fine... no big deal.

Why are you trying to make it a good/bad, right/wrong thing?

Do you go to the zoo?

The majority of the vegans I know are against zoos and safari parks so don't visit them.

...and from the list, that is the only thing you all responded to... "the zoo".

***all with a sense of humor*** :flowerforyou:

I answered on that final point, too, mainly because I had a hard time understanding your point. You said you weren't taking this subject seriously, so that would require me to figure out when you were being serious, and when you weren't. It's too much like math--too hard!

Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."

So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.

Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.

This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.

This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.

As a vegan of nearly 10 years...I see what she is saying. When one says the unpreachy, non-invasive phrase, "I'm vegan," it often seems to be taken by a meat-eater as an apparent invitation for criticism/analysis of their diet. I never mind answering genuine, respectful curiosity, but when it comes across (as it often does) as such: "WHAT? You can't possibly get enough protein. That's unhealthy. " (Unsolicited advice, thanks) or "What? Are you worried about the 'poor wittle anineemals???'" (And you apparently don't know and/or care about the ethics/sanitation/human health issues regarding the factory farming industry, so why do you care that I might have an opinion? Why antagonize me?), the line is blurred between what one has experienced and one has not. Until you have been the one to defend your vegan diet, you don't realize how condescending meat-eaters sound to vegans. Many times, It's as if our admission of our choice of non-animal foods is an unspoken negative judgement that you still eat meat-foods, when we have made no such indication. We have simply stated a fact about ourselves, not you.

I'm non-mainstream in a few ways, and my chosen differences are frequently construed as tacit criticisms.

For instance, I home-schooled my kids (for reasons which will remain private here). But frequently, when I would say that I was a home-school parent, the first thing people would say to me was 'What's wrong with public schools?' It baffled me then, and it baffles me now. That's leading with defensiveness.

Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."

So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.

Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.

This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.

This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.

"And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life."

Silent judgement? I think that's projection on your part.

Furthermore, if the person was Jewish and didn't accept your offer of a ham sandwich, would that still be in "silent judgement"?

Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."

So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.

Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.

This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.

This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.

"And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life."

Silent judgement? I think that's projection on your part.

The older I get, the more I think silence is just silence. I used to think I could hear the unspoken word between the sentences, which peaked when I was a psychology major in college. Now I check for understanding a lot, since people are complex and assumptions about motives and underlying thoughts have a great chance of being wrong.

It's like religion

No one cares if a person is vegan or not, just quit cramming the lifestyle down other's throats.

This.

I have two vegan friends. One is vegan and has been for years. She never brings it up because it's not some big thing to her. It's just how she eats. The only reason I noticed was because I went grocery shopping with her and she was buying silk. She actually got me into almond milk.

The other one prints out PETA pages and hands them out to us. She told me "You meat eaters are animal killers and vegetarians are just as bad because they advocate animal abuse! (referring to dairy cows) I'm so glad I'm not like that. I actually CARE about the animals."

Guess which one I'm still friends with?

I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.

I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.

I appreciate your inquiry. The crux of the matter for me boils down to this: I do not think that one animal killing and eating another type of animal is an inherently bad thing that one should try to put a stop to, and have yet to be convinced otherwise. I don't unquestioningly accept that as the way of the world where humans are concerned, but to this point in time I do not find eating meat to be troubling or wrong, for us or for other animals. Humans can most definitely get by without eating meat, and if I believed that eating meat was a cruel/bad/wrong thing to do, then I wouldn't eat meat, and I would try to convince others not to as well. Because of that, I say more power to any vegetarians/vegans who want to espouse their beliefs, including if they want to tell me that I shouldn't eat meat. If they think that's right, they should be making a case for it. But, as it turns out, I am not (as of now at least) convinced, because I think that animals eating animals is an acceptable part of the natural world, which none of the animals involved need apologize for.

Consider the following typical sort of exchange (roughly this very thing came up a day or two ago in a loooong thread).
Non-vegan: "I don't feel any worse for my steak than the lion does for the gazelle."
Vegan: "Shouldn't you aspire to a higher standard than the lion?"
I do sympathize with the Vegan here, since the Non-vegan's line sounds kinda like, "But everyone else was jumping off the bridge!" At the same time, though, I am ultimately not swayed by the Vegan, precisely because her response already relies on the assumption that one animal eating another is inherently bad; that is, I am not convinced of the notion that refraining from eating other animals is actually "higher" behavior in the first place, and so I do not see it as something to aspire to as a way to positively differentiate myself from non-human carnivores.

I know that my eating chickens is bad for the chickens; that isn't lost on me of course, yet I still believe that the act isn't wrong. In disregarding the welfare of the chickens I eat, I am drawing what is an admittedly somewhat arbitrary line between humans (who I won't kill and eat) and non-humans. Others draw it between animals and non-animals; the thing is, I ultimately find that no less arbitrary than mine. (Yes, there are stark differences between animals and non-animals, but there are also stark differences between humans and non-humans.) Until I am convinced that I have drawn the line in the wrong place (despite the fact that many other species draw the line that same way), I will continue to eat meat with a clear conscience. With eyes wide open, I do place my desire to consume a chicken above its desire to live, and I honestly don't feel wrong about that.

Because the welfare of my food is, necessarily, secondary (at best) to my own.
That's the fundamental difference. Where you see yourself in the scheme of things versus where I see myself.

Does this mean that you think people are vegan because they don't have adequate self-esteem? I'm really asking - this is the internet and sometimes it's hard to glean the real meaning of what's written.

I believe humans are above animals. I see nothing morally wrong with using them for food and clothing any more than I see an objection to eating asparagus.
I don't know what it means about vegans that they don't share that belief. Certainly though, there doesn't seem to be any lack of self-esteem or self-assurance on the part of the vegans here.