Why do people get so provoked by vegans?

Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."

So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.

Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.

This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.

This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.

"And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life."

Silent judgement? I think that's projection on your part.

Furthermore, if the person was Jewish and didn't accept your offer of a ham sandwich, would that still be in "silent judgement"?

Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."

So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.

Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.

This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.

This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.

"And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life."

Silent judgement? I think that's projection on your part.

The older I get, the more I think silence is just silence. I used to think I could hear the unspoken word between the sentences, which peaked when I was a psychology major in college. Now I check for understanding a lot, since people are complex and assumptions about motives and underlying thoughts have a great chance of being wrong.

It's like religion

No one cares if a person is vegan or not, just quit cramming the lifestyle down other's throats.

This.

I have two vegan friends. One is vegan and has been for years. She never brings it up because it's not some big thing to her. It's just how she eats. The only reason I noticed was because I went grocery shopping with her and she was buying silk. She actually got me into almond milk.

The other one prints out PETA pages and hands them out to us. She told me "You meat eaters are animal killers and vegetarians are just as bad because they advocate animal abuse! (referring to dairy cows) I'm so glad I'm not like that. I actually CARE about the animals."

Guess which one I'm still friends with?

I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.

I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.

I appreciate your inquiry. The crux of the matter for me boils down to this: I do not think that one animal killing and eating another type of animal is an inherently bad thing that one should try to put a stop to, and have yet to be convinced otherwise. I don't unquestioningly accept that as the way of the world where humans are concerned, but to this point in time I do not find eating meat to be troubling or wrong, for us or for other animals. Humans can most definitely get by without eating meat, and if I believed that eating meat was a cruel/bad/wrong thing to do, then I wouldn't eat meat, and I would try to convince others not to as well. Because of that, I say more power to any vegetarians/vegans who want to espouse their beliefs, including if they want to tell me that I shouldn't eat meat. If they think that's right, they should be making a case for it. But, as it turns out, I am not (as of now at least) convinced, because I think that animals eating animals is an acceptable part of the natural world, which none of the animals involved need apologize for.

Consider the following typical sort of exchange (roughly this very thing came up a day or two ago in a loooong thread).
Non-vegan: "I don't feel any worse for my steak than the lion does for the gazelle."
Vegan: "Shouldn't you aspire to a higher standard than the lion?"
I do sympathize with the Vegan here, since the Non-vegan's line sounds kinda like, "But everyone else was jumping off the bridge!" At the same time, though, I am ultimately not swayed by the Vegan, precisely because her response already relies on the assumption that one animal eating another is inherently bad; that is, I am not convinced of the notion that refraining from eating other animals is actually "higher" behavior in the first place, and so I do not see it as something to aspire to as a way to positively differentiate myself from non-human carnivores.

I know that my eating chickens is bad for the chickens; that isn't lost on me of course, yet I still believe that the act isn't wrong. In disregarding the welfare of the chickens I eat, I am drawing what is an admittedly somewhat arbitrary line between humans (who I won't kill and eat) and non-humans. Others draw it between animals and non-animals; the thing is, I ultimately find that no less arbitrary than mine. (Yes, there are stark differences between animals and non-animals, but there are also stark differences between humans and non-humans.) Until I am convinced that I have drawn the line in the wrong place (despite the fact that many other species draw the line that same way), I will continue to eat meat with a clear conscience. With eyes wide open, I do place my desire to consume a chicken above its desire to live, and I honestly don't feel wrong about that.

Because the welfare of my food is, necessarily, secondary (at best) to my own.
That's the fundamental difference. Where you see yourself in the scheme of things versus where I see myself.

Does this mean that you think people are vegan because they don't have adequate self-esteem? I'm really asking - this is the internet and sometimes it's hard to glean the real meaning of what's written.

I believe humans are above animals. I see nothing morally wrong with using them for food and clothing any more than I see an objection to eating asparagus.
I don't know what it means about vegans that they don't share that belief. Certainly though, there doesn't seem to be any lack of self-esteem or self-assurance on the part of the vegans here.

She probably doesn't want to stay friends with someone who's indifferent to animal suffering either though. As you said of your other friend, "it's just how she eats". Most vegans aren't in it as a food diet.

Pure and simple QUESTION (not jumping, not arguing, not "stirring the pot", just general curiosity)

As an outspoken vegan, would an outspoken vegan "look down" on a non-activist/outspoken one?
ie. most of us try to eat healthy, but sometimes we cheat. we all have those foods that are in our weekly diet that aren't exactly healthy. an outspoken Clean Eater may criticize us for stating "we eat clean" .

No, not at all. I think the main activism in veganism is the financial boycott of non-vegan products. I think boycotting any product is always the best form of rational activism. I know a few vegans who just enjoy going to the vegan potluck and cafes and that's completely good. They might sign petitions online but that's it.

I believe humans are above animals. I see nothing morally wrong with using them for food and clothing any more than I see an objection to eating asparagus.
I don't know what it means about vegans that they don't share that belief. Certainly though, there doesn't seem to be any lack of self-esteem or self-assurance on the part of the vegans here.

Ah ok. Perhaps though, some do share that belief, and have just decided on a different expression of it than you have? I understand that many do not share that belief and think that all animals are the same, human or not. People are pretty complex though, and I am open to the possibility that someone can have a belief similar to mine, but still follow it to a different path of action (even when it's hard to comprehend).

i understand where you are coming from...I never preach about the way I live, but the moment someone offers me a cheeseburger and I politely say " No thanks, I'm vegan... You should see the looks I get. The next question is usually either, what is that, or why....and then I get a slew of negativity, which I don't understand. If you like meat, eat meat, if you dont have mine because it's not something I prefer. People do judge you based on how you live and what you eat, especially if you aren't like them.

It's like religion

No one cares if a person is vegan or not, just quit cramming the lifestyle down other's throats.

This.

I have two vegan friends. One is vegan and has been for years. She never brings it up because it's not some big thing to her. It's just how she eats. The only reason I noticed was because I went grocery shopping with her and she was buying silk. She actually got me into almond milk.

The other one prints out PETA pages and hands them out to us. She told me "You meat eaters are animal killers and vegetarians are just as bad because they advocate animal abuse! (referring to dairy cows) I'm so glad I'm not like that. I actually CARE about the animals."

Guess which one I'm still friends with?

She probably doesn't want to stay friends with someone who's indifferent to animal suffering either though. As you said of your other friend, "it's just how she eats". Most vegans aren't in it as a food diet.

I'm sure you'll laugh at this, but I do not consider myself"indifferent" to animal suffering. I simply define it differently than you seem to.

First off, I do not support PETA because they don't do a very good job of getting money to the animals. As with many large organizations a lot of it gets lost in the red tape. I would rather donate to my local humane society because I can see tangibly how they improve the lives of animals. How am I sure my money is going to a good cause? I donate my time there to make sure that this is a place I want to support. I want to be sure they have appropriate programs for addressing behavior concerns and evaluating both animal physical health and mental health before matching them with a family. PETA to me raises a lot of awareness, but often they come off with too much fear mongering for my taste. I prefer the education route from my local shelter. They help owners learn how to deal with behavior problems as well as teaching basic body language and low stress handling ala Dr. Sophia Yin. My externship in the behavior field made me realize how critical this was to helping keep a dog/cat in a forever home. When you teach people how to work through their problems, they don't get frustrated and dump the dog back at the shelter as often.

Secondly, unlike many people, I work and have worked in the food animal industry. While not every farm is up to snuff (which can be seen in many animal abuse cases), I enjoyed learning about current management styles and why things are done the way they. I don't agree with all management practices and for those cases I contact my congressmen and talk to the farmers. Farmers, in general, should avoid abusing animals (starving, hitting, over-stressing) because it leads to production loss. A little bit of education means an awful lot. I find change is more easily brought about when people don't feel judged (such as being called "indifferent" or "cruel"). Yes, it sucks that we can't always speak our minds, but if you work with people you actually get people to want to comply. This leads to life long changes for the betterment of the animals. Compromise which yields results over a large industry is FAR more important to me than my tiny little contribution by supporting some individual products.

A good example is the current HSUS and egg layers of the US movement to change chicken housing. While it is not perfect, it is a compromise that will bring better housing to chickens. They will have more space, and enrichment while still keeping the farmer's happy with increases in production. It's really interesting to me and I highly recommend those concerned with animal welfare read up on it. http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2012/05/hen_bill_052412.html

So, in short, I feel that by leading by example and educating about options out there rather than taking the "I'm better because" approach you get more compliance with lifestyle changes.

I think it's pretty much as others have already mentioned ... it's the holier than thou, "my way is the only way" attitude.

I'm vegetarian ... I still eat yogurt and cheese but no eggs or anything else. I am aiming to be a vegan ... maybe ... down the road. But having said that, I still don't want to hear someone telling me that I "should" do anything.

Sort of like religion. My view of a Higher Power may not be yours ... but that doesn't mean I should try and convert you. I'll share what I believe with you but I'm not going to condemn you for believing what you believe.

To explain my point that I think slaughtering and producing animals for food is cruel (not that meat eaters are cruel) I'll use my grandfather as an example:

He grew up on a farm on a small remote island. The barn cat became pregnant and they couldn't keep the kitten. My grandfather, a young boy at the time, was told by his parents to go drown the kittens, which he did. The mother cat wouldn't stop crying, so he was then told to drown her too - which he did.

He was a completely lovely, kind man during his lifetime. Despite doing what we now generally consider to be a cruel thing. Times change and so does circumstance.

I believe humans are above animals. I see nothing morally wrong with using them for food and clothing any more than I see an objection to eating asparagus.
I don't know what it means about vegans that they don't share that belief. Certainly though, there doesn't seem to be any lack of self-esteem or self-assurance on the part of the vegans here.

Ah ok. Perhaps though, some do share that belief, and have just decided on a different expression of it than you have? I understand that many do not share that belief and think that all animals are the same, human or not. People are pretty complex though, and I am open to the possibility that someone can have a belief similar to mine, but still follow it to a different path of action (even when it's hard to comprehend).

Many years ago, Ingrid Newkirk of PETA fame said this: "“When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.” It was widely misquoted as 'A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.' People were horrified, and who could blame them?

I have yet to meet an 'animal rights' person who places animal life on an equal plane as human life. But, despite a world of imperfection, they tend to be consumers who are mindful of animal 'pain, hunger and thirst' and vote with their dollars by avoiding animal products if at all possible. Whether it makes a difference in the lives of animals is an arguable point, but for me, it feels better to behave in a way that comports with my inner thoughts. There are precious few times that is possible in life.

i understand where you are coming from...I never preach about the way I live, but the moment someone offers me a cheeseburger and I politely say " No thanks, I'm vegan... You should see the looks I get. The next question is usually either, what is that, or why....and then I get a slew of negativity, which I don't understand. If you like meat, eat meat, if you dont have mine because it's not something I prefer. People do judge you based on how you live and what you eat, especially if you aren't like them.

Why "...I'm vegan..."

Someone offers me a cheeseburger I'm thinking "No thanks, that crap will kill you," but I only say the "No thanks," part.

Honestly, I attempt to do the no thank you only, but because nice people really want to share, eventually I have to say something about why not because they keep trying. Some veggies just put that out there as short hand. My coworkers have a lot of trouble keeping what I do and don't eat straight, but we just keep plugging along.

BTW, saying "I'm vegan" is *not* equivalent to calling someone else's food crap. THAT is what vegans are talking about when they say people immediately believe they're being judged when a vegan declares him or herself.

i understand where you are coming from...I never preach about the way I live, but the moment someone offers me a cheeseburger and I politely say " No thanks, I'm vegan... You should see the looks I get. The next question is usually either, what is that, or why....and then I get a slew of negativity, which I don't understand. If you like meat, eat meat, if you dont have mine because it's not something I prefer. People do judge you based on how you live and what you eat, especially if you aren't like them.

Why "...I'm vegan..."

Someone offers me a cheeseburger I'm thinking "No thanks, that crap will kill you," but I only say the "No thanks," part.

Honestly, I attempt to do the no thank you only, but because nice people really want to share, eventually I have to say something about why not because they keep trying. Some veggies just put that out there as short hand. My coworkers have a lot of trouble keeping what I do and don't eat straight, but we just keep plugging along.

BTW, saying "I'm vegan" is *not* equivalent to calling someone else's food crap. THAT is what vegans are talking about when they say people immediately believe they're being judged when a vegan declares him or herself.

I usually just say "No, thanks." and leave it at that. I only tell people if I'm going to a wedding or something with a meal that's booked and paid for by someone else in advance.

.... I'm irked by people who tell me that they'd rather not know what happens to the animals, because then they'll feel bad....

I second this whole heartedly.

People seem very far removed from the food chain anymore and it worries me. Being out in the agricultural field made me really realize how animals are treated and made me think about what I was comfortable with. It was very important to me to understand managerial practices and hear the logic on why they are done.

I know one of the things that still bothers me is the lack of anesthesia for dehornings done by farmers. The vet I worked for did all dehornings with proper pain relief, sedation and cautery. I know now that this is often not the case. There are still farmers that believe cows feel pain differently than we do. I chalk it up more to them being stoic as they are a prey species, but that's neither here nor there.

Another thing I learned was why some practices take place. I never understood why dairy cattle always seemed to be covered in poo until I actually met them. Dairy cattle, in my experience, are very indifferent to where they poop. (pigs are totally different. If given the choice they only poop in one spot which is removed from where they sleep). We watched more than one cow back up into another cow and then just defecate on her like there was no cow there. The worst part was we were in a large field where the cow could have easily walked away to a clear spot to poop. I suddenly understood why one farmer told me he was "a poo manager". Even in facilities that were run properly, they still were cleaning several times a day to get rid of the manure. Then there was the matter of managing where the poop went afterwards. It was a nightmare!

I think that by learning from actual practices (agri mangement courses, visiting farms, and seeing what's out there in person) a person gets a much broader appreciation for the food chain as well as what works and what doesn't. I think that first hand experience (when obtainable) is very important before making a decision about how they feel about an issue.