Sexual Orientation Changed Through Reparative Therapy?
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Mark is old testament? Weird, my bible must be broken.
Mark 12:18-27
The first part of the scripture they are asking about Moses and Old Testament laws. Read it!
The passage you cited says there's no marriage after death, so...?0 -
I do not believe orientation can be changed. I do believe some folks get confused when they are younger, and/or feel pressured by society to be something they aren't. Both straight and gay.
I should know. Raised Christian, went to a Christian college, lost God along the way because of shame and fear, married for 12 years, to my best friend in order to hide my sexuality from my family, church and society.
I finally came out this year, and surprisingly it was when I found the strength from prayer to God. It was just as bad as I feared all those years, but totally worth it to finally be who I am. I 40 year old gay christian woman.
It is not a choice, but people sometimes make choices about their identity. (That they may or may not regret)
exactly - we all try to "fit" - I am happy for you that you found peace with yours0 -
The passage you cited says there's no marriage after death, so...?
... so necrophelia is okay. Just not man-on-male-corpse.
(edited to add) But anyway, I think it's funny that Jesus didn't disabuse them of that rule. He focused on what happens to the seventh marriage after the resurrection. Seemed like a great opportunity for Jesus to say "Moses said WHAT?"(/end)0 -
Other people have already mentioned the heteronormative perspective. I think that idea is valid. It applies to anything "different" (from our perspective). I don't think you are being unreasonable in what you are saying. But in a highly politicized discussion such as this, giving the benefit of the doubt, exercising patience and generosity, etc. all tend to crumble under the weight of righteousness and anger.
true...I must admit I do not like seeing a guy who has to make sure everyone knows his orientation. that would also go for flamboyant heterosexuals but I dont see that as often as the flamboyant gay who "over does" it.. I am not talking about the comment above where some guy makes a comment on some other guys *kitten*. I am talking about the guy who is overly feminine. not all gays are like that just like not all straight guys are super macho. I dont care for either. is that bigoted? maybe. sometimes I wonder if I am jaded.
Of course it's possible, as demonstrated by the OP and some of the early posts that followed.is it possible to think it is wrong but also to accept those that are?
Though being tired of those "flamboyant gays" that "seem to be flaunting for the sole purpose of flaunting" probably doesn't fall into the "acceptance" bucket.
as far as the topic is concerned, I would not advocate any kind of conversion therapy that wasn't self directed and self motivated.
If I was leading a business meeting, and two people starting making out, I'd call them on it, regardless of the genders of the participants. I think "flaunting" is pretty subjective, though. And for most scenarios, it doesn't matter. I'd rather not have to deal with people making out in front me while watching a movie. But I don't necessarily have a right to make them stop. I do have a right to change seats. I don't want to live in a world where a government entity will enforce what I like. Let them enforce safety and equality, not morals and taste.
Depending on the definition and context, I don't like "flaunting" either (for anything). But I wonder how I would feel if I was ashamed for years of something fundamental to who I was, and then somehow overcame the shame and secrecy and wanted to "celebrate" the discovery of my truth. Or even just had to deal with bigotry and hatred about who I was, and simply wanted to enjoy expressing authenticity. I might want to flaunt a bit myself.0 -
"Therapy" suggests a malfunction, something that needs corrected.
Sexual orientation does not need to be corrected. Anything claiming it can do so is just a shaming tactic designed to shove obvious behaviors under the rug.
Funny. This is the same argument used by NAMBLA and other pedophile organizations.
I doubt very much that the "tolerant" crowd would tolerate a pervert seducing their children in the name of being tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.
What the?!?!
To the person that says Nambla is funny. Please think before you say such thoughtless, hurtful things about actual real traumatic, life altering experiences that actual people have been through. I'm speaking now as a survivor of sex abuse and I speak for myself and no one else (because I do not want to get into arguments about what I went through as it was extremely traumatic for me and it was rape and I was not in a consensual relationship with my step father when I was a young child). It is absolutely not the same thing as two consenting people that are of the age of consent being in a loving relationship or even just having sex. If you can not understand that, you are a sick person with a screw loose. That is not the same thing as an older adult in a position of power (usually in some type of parenting role) manipulating, abusing and raping children. I'm not even going to explain this. It is beyond absurd that a person could not get that and would even start it out by calling it funny. You need help. Anyone that equates those things needs help.0 -
I suffered from low blood pressure before this thread - I am cured, is it a miracle or am I just some gay weirdo?0
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And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
Indeed. I disapprove of your religious views, but I wouldn't wish ill upon you.0 -
"Not in a box.
Not with a fox.
Not in a house.
Not with a mouse.
I would not eat them here or there.
I would not eat them anywhere.
I would not eat green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am."
I place about as much importance on this quote as I do on any quotes from the Bible. Just because you find the Bible significant to back up your beliefs on homosexuality, doesn't mean it proves anything. If you want to believe it to back up your own hatred or intolerance against a group of people, I cannot stop you. But quoting Leviticus in this thread proves about as much as what I just quoted.
And PLEASE, stop eating green eggs and ham. It is ruining the family structure and corrupting our youth.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
Indeed. I disapprove of your religious views, but I wouldn't wish ill upon you.
YES! Which is why I don't discuss religion or politics with any of my friends. We don't agree, simple as that. But we still love each other.0 -
Joking aside (and I believe there is a lot of that going on in this thread, otherwise the world would be a very sad place indeed) ...
As a professional translator, I know how much can get lost in translation, so I would never quote anything for real if I don't understand/have read/can research the source text - eliminating the bible as serious reference for me (the words cooks and pie come to mind).
On a thread related note: Why are so many people so hell bend on dictacting how others have to live their life? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just accept and love people (male and female) for who they are instead of what they are? There is still this little naive bit of me left that hopes one day we will *draping flowers into her hair and dancing into the sunset* :-) Peace out.0 -
"Not in a box.
Not with a fox.
Not in a house.
Not with a mouse.
I would not eat them here or there.
I would not eat them anywhere.
I would not eat green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am."
I place about as much importance on this quote as I do on any quotes from the Bible. Just because you find the Bible significant to back up your beliefs on homosexuality, doesn't mean it proves anything. If you want to believe it to back up your own hatred or intolerance against a group of people, I cannot stop you. But quoting Leviticus in this thread proves about as much as what I just quoted.
And PLEASE, stop eating green eggs and ham. It is ruining the family structure and corrupting our youth.
People just don't realize that when they eat green eggs and ham, my plain eggs and ham get greener.
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Gay men will marry your girlfriends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-YCdcnf_P8
So very true!! lol This was posted on my FB and compared to some of the men I have met, I would marry a gay man in a heart beat lol0 -
Honey Boo Boo said everyone's got a little gay in them!
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The New Testament doesn't say thou shalt disapprove of and oppose gays.
Leave judgement and enforcement of cloudman's laws to cloudman.
Anything else is jihad.0 -
Doctor Oz is a quack. This just confirms it, for me. This form of "therapy" is actually being actively called out by health professionals for it's detrimental mental effects (such as depression): http://www.salon.com/2012/11/28/gay_healers_youre_quacks/0
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I think people that watch and take Dr. Oz seriously need some therapy.0
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I beleive all "gay" people are born that way. I also believe there are people who participate in homosexual activity that are not "gay". Before you blast me, hear me out.
I have seen, through the years, many adult survivors of child sexual abuse who participate in homosexual activity (if their abuser was same sex) that do not identify themselves as gay, and normally participate in "hetero" sexual relationships. My graduate degree is in human behavior and I work in the criminal justice system and have seen this play out over and over and over.
People who are born gay can no more become straight than people who are born white can become black. And I really can't see why anyone would want to change them anyway.
However, the people who participate in homosexual activity as a response to child sexual abuse by a same sex perpetrator and who state they had strictly hetero inclinations prior to the abuse, and most generallly seek out heterosexual situations, if interested in changing their sexual behavior (from same sex to hetero) probably can work some of that out through therapy. However, I'm not even totally certain this is possible in many cases.0 -
"Therapy" suggests a malfunction, something that needs corrected.
Sexual orientation does not need to be corrected. Anything claiming it can do so is just a shaming tactic designed to shove obvious behaviors under the rug.
Funny. This is the same argument used by NAMBLA and other pedophile organizations.
I doubt very much that the "tolerant" crowd would tolerate a pervert seducing their children in the name of being tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.
What the?!?!
To the person that says Nambla is funny. Please think before you say such thoughtless, hurtful things about actual real traumatic, life altering experiences that actual people have been through. I'm speaking now as a survivor of sex abuse and I speak for myself and no one else (because I do not want to get into arguments about what I went through as it was extremely traumatic for me and it was rape and I was not in a consensual relationship with my step father when I was a young child). It is absolutely not the same thing as two consenting people that are of the age of consent being in a loving relationship or even just having sex. If you can not understand that, you are a sick person with a screw loose. That is not the same thing as an older adult in a position of power (usually in some type of parenting role) manipulating, abusing and raping children. I'm not even going to explain this. It is beyond absurd that a person could not get that and would even start it out by calling it funny. You need help. Anyone that equates those things needs help.
First of sorry about your past. Now second your reading comprehension is kind of off. I am pretty sure by funny they meant ironic that Nambla uses the same argument. Even though they are pedophiles. That is there sexual orientation. Is it wrong? I believe so absolutely. I also believe homosexuality is wrong but I am tolerant of it. On topic though I don't think anyone is born gay. I think social influence and other outside factors help shape a persons sexual orientation.0 -
Ahhh, people quoting Bible when they don't realize what they are saying. Christians don't follow Old Testament laws... We are under the New Testament. All those questions posted are from the Old law... Thankfully we no longer have to worry about cotton/polyester blends and animal sacrifices!
Actually "we" are under the laws of nature, far more powerful than your set of laws. Under nature's laws sexuality is determined in the womb and into the structure of your brain weather you are human or a mouse and cannot be changed by praying or whatever. Your god may be powerful but he ain't no brain surgeon.0 -
I just have to mention a couple things here.
1 - This is a heck of a subject to start reading at 7 in the morning....sheesh!
2 - Can you choose your orientation? Well...I'm going to toss a couple comments into the mix on this question.
* In some cases yes. Notice that I said SOME... The single case I can use for an example is marriage (Civil union if you want...but means the same thing to me). If a person is bi-sexual, when (if) they marry, they have effectively chosen their sexual orientation. If and/or when they get divorced...well, I would have to ask a bisexual that was married, then got divorced to see if their views changed. Anyone posting that falls into that heading? I would like to hear your opinion on this example.
* I am not going to weigh in on the subject of genetics vs choice, but for both sides of the argument, do you think this extends beyond the Hetero / Homo discussion?
Is it genetic to be more attracted to Blondes or Redheads...especially Redheads with bright green eyes. :blushing:
:smooched:
What about the attractions (Devil's Advocate here) that are almost universally reviled. Attraction to small children or to animals Is it genetic, or is it choice? I am not even beginning to say I condone either of those things, but if you believe that Homo vs Hetero is genetics only and therapy is just destructive, couldn't the same arguments be made for these people as well?0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
You're absolutely right. I disapprove of my obese friend overeating fast food and staying inactive, just like I disapprove of much of my family smoking.
The key here is that the things I disapprove of, their way of living? It's harmful.
Funny how the only thing that says homosexuality is "harmful" is a vague and not universally interpreted few verses in a multiple millenia year old book.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
Indeed. I disapprove of your religious views, but I wouldn't wish ill upon you.
YES! Which is why I don't discuss religion or politics with any of my friends. We don't agree, simple as that. But we still love each other.
There is a difference between whether or not you believe gayness is a moral issue (which can be held dear and private... even if your belief hurts my feelings), and whether you believe that gayness is a reason to deprive someone of basic rights to life, employment, housing, and so on. To not discuss politcal views with friends because you "disagree but love each other" I often feel as an attempt to say "I am voting for xyz politician, who would literally take away your right to live, access housing, employment, or visit your children or spouse in the hospital. But I don't want to talk about it, as it's my private belief. We need to just ' agree to disagree' "
Please understand that private beliefs and choices have very broad consequences. Consequences that affect millions. Asking those hurt by your political views, activities or vote to remain silent or to not discuss them allows you to believe (and choose/vote accordingly) without challenging you. For those without equality, it is akin to a slow, hurtful suicide. To me, that is not love.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
You're absolutely right. I disapprove of my obese friend overeating fast food and staying inactive, just like I disapprove of much of my family smoking.
The key here is that the things I disapprove of, their way of living? It's harmful.
Funny how the only thing that says homosexuality is "harmful" is a vague and not universally interpreted few verses in a multiple millenia year old book.
I may not be understanding what you're saying, in all sincerity, but the way that I am reading it makes me wonder if the obese person you described above does not have a "lifestyle" of overeating fast food and inactivity, and that is in fact harmful. While I'm not arguing the point of whether being gay is a lifestyle choice or something you're born as, I think what you described above IS a lifestyle choice, so I'm not sure it's comparable to what the person you quoted said. Like I said, I may just not be understanding...0 -
I just have to mention a couple things here.
1 - This is a heck of a subject to start reading at 7 in the morning....sheesh!
2 - Can you choose your orientation? Well...I'm going to toss a couple comments into the mix on this question.
* In some cases yes. Notice that I said SOME... The single case I can use for an example is marriage (Civil union if you want...but means the same thing to me). If a person is bi-sexual, when (if) they marry, they have effectively chosen their sexual orientation. If and/or when they get divorced...well, I would have to ask a bisexual that was married, then got divorced to see if their views changed. Anyone posting that falls into that heading? I would like to hear your opinion on this example.
* I am not going to weigh in on the subject of genetics vs choice, but for both sides of the argument, do you think this extends beyond the Hetero / Homo discussion?
Is it genetic to be more attracted to Blondes or Redheads...especially Redheads with bright green eyes. :blushing: :smooched:
What about the attractions (Devil's Advocate here) that are almost universally reviled. Attraction to small children or to animals Is it genetic, or is it choice? I am not even beginning to say I condone either of those things, but if you believe that Homo vs Hetero is genetics only and therapy is just destructive, couldn't the same arguments be made for these people as well?
You're misunderstanding "orientation." You can still be attracted to both men and women as a bisexual if you choose to be married to a man or woman. The choice is in the partner; the orientation is in the unchosen orientation.
As for the bestiality and pedophilia argument... this isn't going to be a popular comment, but there's quite a bit of research on those being orientations rather than choices. The issue is that their orientations involve the lack of consent of other being (although bestiality consent gets tricky and squicky, imo, if you start really looking into it). There's quite a few people who are admitted pedophiles who go to therapy, but choose to live a non-pedophilic life. Why? Because pedophilia causes harm; a homosexual, who would have gone through the same process of "therapy" that this whole thread is about, hasn't been considered either harmful or a disease in decades.
It's the "nature vs. nurture" aspect again on if people are affected by anything more to sway them to those sorts of orientations, although often "nature vs. nurture" arguments tend to end up in the conclusion "bit of both." I'd venture to say that pedophilia and bestiality are rooted much more in exchanges of power than a gay, straight, bi, or pansexual orientation, though (same thing with rape being more about power than sex).
Anyway, you seem attracted to people who look like Lily Potter, so I will jump to the conclusion that you are Severus Snape.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
You're absolutely right. I disapprove of my obese friend overeating fast food and staying inactive, just like I disapprove of much of my family smoking.
The key here is that the things I disapprove of, their way of living? It's harmful.
Funny how the only thing that says homosexuality is "harmful" is a vague and not universally interpreted few verses in a multiple millenia year old book.
I may not be understanding what you're saying, in all sincerity, but the way that I am reading it makes me wonder if the obese person you described above does not have a "lifestyle" of overeating fast food and inactivity, and that is in fact harmful. While I'm not arguing the point of whether being gay is a lifestyle choice or something you're born as, I think what you described above IS a lifestyle choice, so I'm not sure it's comparable to what the person you quoted said. Like I said, I may just not be understanding...
I think you're understanding me, but not getting my intent. The person DOES view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice (which I've stated earlier in this thread isn't an accurate assessment of homosexuality). So I leveled with that person on what ARE lifestyle choices, why I disapprove yet still care about those people, and showing that such things are harmful... versus homosexuality, if she still decides to view it as a "lifestyle," even then, homosexuality is not harmful.0 -
Why can't people just let others live their lives the way they want to? As long as people aren't hurting others and it's between consenting adults, does it really matter who's with who and what gender they are? Love is love, after all, and that's better than no love because you're following someone else's arbitrary rules.0
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Why would any choose something they'd be treacly very negatively for? To me it does not seem logical that it involves choice.0
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:flowerforyou:I am gay. I was raised in a VERY conservative, Christian household, and everything about my environment, upbringing, and socialization taught me that it was a choice, and that it was wrong. I denied being gay for a few years (I just had a lot of "girl crushes"), but eventually I just knew that it was what it was and I couldn't change it. When I came out in my late teens, everyone thought I was just rebelling and would go back to 'normal' with time.
Didn't happen. I am queer and I am happy and I look forward to being a lifelong homo. :P
As an aside, I get what people mean when they say that no one would CHOOSE to be gay, but it still makes me sad. I don't want queerness to be a sad thing for anyone. I don't think there's anything more beautiful than living your truth and I hate that so many people feel that they are in between self-loathing in the closet and hatred from others when they come out. I LOVE being gay. I LOVE IT. Given the opportunity, I would not choose to be straight. I'd much rather change our bigoted, heterocentric society than change myself.0 -
On a thread related note: Why are so many people so hell bend on dictacting how others have to live their life? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just accept and love people (male and female) for who they are instead of what they are? There is still this little naive bit of me left that hopes one day we will *draping flowers into her hair and dancing into the sunset* :-) Peace out.
*hands you a flower for your hair*:flowerforyou:0
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