General Comment About People Who Don't Lift

This is a 17 time World Champion Powerlifter.

Can you guys tell me who this is, btw?

I just felt compelled to chime in again on this thread.

I think women lifting weights (heavier ones) is great for a ton of reasons.

But here are the reasons I personally think suck:

1. Because men will think I am hotter!
2. Because I want to be as hot as <insert your favorite fitness model>
3. Because being skinny is lame

It is OK to want to be strong, for being strongs sake. We spend a lot of time saying stuff like. "Woman can be strong, but not too strong. And you have to look hot while you are strong. And not too manly. Lots of this validation for stength training is tied up in a bunch of external factors.

Do it for you. Do it for your bones. Do it to reduce you body fat percentage. Do it to save your hips. But don't do it because everyone keeps telling you all the "hot women do."

OK end of rant.

And on another note, I had a realization the other day. I recall the last time I was at the weight I am now. Maybe 8 years ago or so. I wore a bigger clothing size.

I just felt compelled to chime in again on this thread.

I think women lifting weights (heavier ones) is great for a ton of reasons.

But here are the reasons I personally think suck:

1. Because men will think I am hotter!
2. Because I want to be as hot as <insert your favorite fitness model>
3. Because being skinny is lame

It is OK to want to be strong, for being strongs sake. We spend a lot of time saying stuff like. "Woman can be strong, but not too strong. And you have to look hot while you are strong. And not too manly. Lots of this validation for stength training is tied up in a bunch of external factors.

Do it for you. Do it for your bones. Do it to reduce you body fat percentage. Do it to save your hips. But don't do it because everyone keeps telling you all the "hot women do."

OK end of rant.

And on another note, I had a realization the other day. I recall the last time I was at the weight I am now. Maybe 8 years ago or so. I wore a bigger clothing size.

^^very well said.

I never said a word about yoga. Don't confuse my words with those of other people.

The only people I've seen for whom lifting is not the single best exercise they could possibly do are people with severe injuries or defects that don't allow them to lift. Or people who play a specific sport at a high level and need specific training that may not involve lifting. That's it.

That includes not only yoga, but EVERY other activity that isn't weight lifting. So no, I'm not confusing your words with those of other people, I'm saying that you're being dismissive of other exercise styles because of your belief that weight lifting is superior. That's a very close-minded view.

I'm not dismissive of other exercise styles. Cardio is great. Yoga is great. Certainly there are some things that are enormous wastes of time, like the "toning" exercises so many women seem to do. But cardio is good. Yoga is good. Yoga especially - the people who do it seem to very much enjoy the mental state they are in while doing yoga.

But doing these things at the expense of lifting is silly if your goals are health, weight loss, appearance, strength, etc. The problem is people convince themselves - or are convinced by others - that these things will produce results that they simply can't produce. Lifting is efficient and far, far more productive at producing the results people want than anything else. You can substitute bodyweight exercises for lifting pieces of iron and steel, but it won't work as well.

The fact is that for 99% of people who decide to go to the gym, the ideal program is one that includes lifting and some kind of cardio. Depending on your goals, it can certainly be good to mix other things in there, like swimming, endurance training, yoga, whatever. But for the typical person who decides to "get in shape" and then spends 10 hours a week on an elliptical at the gym with a little time dedicated to a few circuit machines or lightweight dumbbells, they are doing things rather badly.

"Not lifting" is a mistake a lot of people make, and it's with very few exceptions one they should not make.

This is a 17 time World Champion Powerlifter.

Can you guys tell me who this is, btw?

Amanda Harris.

Strength training is not synonymous with "pumping iron".

The training of gymnasts is comprised almost entirely out of bodyweight exercises.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/367737-male-gymnast-weight-training/
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron

Strength training is not synonymous with "pumping iron".

The training of gymnasts is comprised almost entirely out of bodyweight exercises.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/367737-male-gymnast-weight-training/
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron

Funny articles, considering when you speak to actual competition gymnasts they say that they do indeed use the weight room:

"Typically as a gymnast enters college, they experience some formal weight training, but again the movements are geared toward maximizing sport-specific strength, because unnecessary muscle bulk non-essential for the skills will only weigh an athlete down.
However, work in the weight room usually is helpful for the more mature college-age athletes so that they can develop the necessary strength to continue to perform gymnastics with a bigger, more mature body."

"After developing a good base of strength with chest press, overhead shoulder press, bent-over rows, and lat pulldowns, move on to bodyweight training with a significant portion of your bodyweight."

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how_gymnasts_train.htm

But, again, this is sport-specific training. Gymnasts don't train specifically for health, well-being, appearance, confidence, etc. The're training to maximize their ability at a very specific sport. They do indeed use weights to supplement their sport-specific training, though.

It's also important to note that professional gymnasts don't start out overweight with high body fat.

1. There is no evidence that weight lifting is required for health.

I never said it was required for health.

2. Appearance is opinion. The media is full of beautiful people. Especially when it comes to beautiful women, some lift, some don't. So, you could only mean that people who don't lift don't look good to you. Though since you purport that weight lifters look just like dancers, I don't see how that could really be true.

I never said "weight lifters look just like dancers."

3. Strength can be improved and maintained through body weight. Certainly strength can be taken to levels beyond body weight through weight lifting, but body weight exercises will provide enough strength for lifting things in everyday life, maintaining bone density, and health.

It can, but it's harder and less efficient than doing so with weights. Even fewer people are willing to commit to a true, effective bodyweight routine than to one using weights. I haven't seen anyone in this thread who "lifts heavy" using bodyweight, even though it's possible.

4. Weight loss. The world is full of people who have lost weight without lifting weights. They may have been able to eat more while losing had they included weights, but weights are not required for weight loss.

Again, never said that it was. You're knocking down straw man after straw man, but ignoring my actual points.

I wasn't on MFP at the time or I would have at least been exposed to the importance of lifting. I think I look pretty good with clothes on, but I'm pretty sure based on the pics and comments I've read here on MFP that I would be much happier and look better naked if I had lifted while I was losing weight.

This is exactly the point.

The problem isn't that doing yoga is a waste of time, or that it's dumb. It's not. The problem is that people don't recognize how productive and effective real strength training is. If you understand, and just don't like lifting and understand the tradeoff you're making, then fine. But the problem is when people try to convince themselves or others that yoga or "toning" or whatever else they do is just as effective or efficient at building or maintaining lean mass and strength as lifting is. It's just not.

Lifting will enable you to lose body fat and preserve lean muscle faster than anything else you can do. Serious bodyweight training (and by serious I mean Convict Conditioning or gymnast-style full-body workouts designed to work you heavy to failure) comes close. Yoga, not so much. Pink dumbbells, no.

If you still don't want to lift, fine don't lift. But don't try to convince other people that whatever else you've decided to do, whether it's spend 10 hours a week on an elliptical or 4 hours a week of yoga, will produce results similar to a routine that actually includes heavy lifting. It won't.

I think I look pretty good with clothes on, but I'm pretty sure based on the pics and comments I've read here on MFP that I would be much happier and look better naked if I had lifted while I was losing weight.

Lol, can't really tell from your profile pics. Put up a couple naked and we'll let you know. j/k

Joking aside, one of the key things I feel that any trainer and anyone focused on weight loss should be concerned with is making most of that loss fat and minimizing lean muscle tissue loss. For that, I believe weight training is the most efficient route. Beyond that, I think there is something to be said for a balanced program that includes resistance training of some kind (weights, yoga, body weight), cardio and some form of functional training.

One of members Steve Troutman is a well respected fitness and nutrition professional. He made a statement refering to concern about the scale number but I think it really sums up a high level view of the ideal goal of a diet and fitness program.

"I simply don't think it's worth worrying about what your weight should be. Rather, worry about what your health, functionality, performance, and physique should be. Weight will settle where it needs to be once those things are optimized."

Optimizing health, functionality, performance and physique. That made sense to me when I first read it and it still does. Some people will never want to weight training and they'll get to the level of health, functionality, performance and physique they desire. I don't think it's any coincidnence that pretty much every top level expert, from Venuto to Troutman to Layne Norton to Lyle McDonald to Alan Aragon, that I've ever read thinks weight training is a critical peice of a total program though.

Nor is it any coincidence that almost every sport including gymnastics and dancing as has been mentioned here, but also baseball, track, football, basketball, wrestling etc, etc all include weight training in their training programs.

That said, body weight and yoga and other forms of exercise have a benefit and not everyone is looking for optimum or concerned about lean mass preservation. As we've seen in this thread. Does that mean there is no value to those forms of exercise? Not at all!

Hmm, it seemed natural to me to infer that saying it was "silly" to not lift weights if these things above were your goals meant that you were saying you couldn't achieve them. I can't imagine why achieving your goals by any means would be silly, but if I inferred incorrectly, I apologize.

That inference may have been natural to you, but it was wrong.

You can make it to the bathroom by walking, or you can make it to the bathroom by crawling. Crawling is silly, but you'll still make it there. Achieving your goal of making it to the bathroom by crawling is silly, even though you will achieve said goal.

Of course, some goals are virtually impossible without heavy lifting. Most people don't have "skinnyfat" as a goal, and want to lose weight and end up looking "toned." Very tough to do without lifting or serious bodyweight exercises. Guys that want to look like an underwear model or dancer won't ever look like that without the same.

I wasn't on MFP at the time or I would have at least been exposed to the importance of lifting. I think I look pretty good with clothes on, but I'm pretty sure based on the pics and comments I've read here on MFP that I would be much happier and look better naked if I had lifted while I was losing weight.

This is exactly the point.

The problem isn't that doing yoga is a waste of time, or that it's dumb. It's not. The problem is that people don't recognize how productive and effective real strength training is. If you understand, and just don't like lifting and understand the tradeoff you're making, then fine. But the problem is when people try to convince themselves or others that yoga or "toning" or whatever else they do is just as effective or efficient at building or maintaining lean mass and strength as lifting is. It's just not.

Lifting will enable you to lose body fat and preserve lean muscle faster than anything else you can do. Serious bodyweight training (and by serious I mean Convict Conditioning or gymnast-style full-body workouts designed to work you heavy to failure) comes close. Yoga, not so much. Pink dumbbells, no.

If you still don't want to lift, fine don't lift. But don't try to convince other people that whatever else you've decided to do, whether it's spend 10 hours a week on an elliptical or 4 hours a week of yoga, will produce results similar to a routine that actually includes heavy lifting. It won't.

^^^This. And to be fair, it wasn't MFP that opened my eyes. It was a friend, then reading things on MFP and researching on my own. Do what you like and you'll get results. They won't be the same as lifting.

You can make it to the bathroom by walking, or you can make it to the bathroom by crawling. Crawling is silly, but you'll still make it there. Achieving your goal of making it to the bathroom by crawling is silly, even though you will achieve said goal.

Of course, some goals are virtually impossible without heavy lifting. Most people don't have "skinnyfat" as a goal, and want to lose weight and end up looking "toned." Very tough to do without lifting or serious bodyweight exercises. Guys that want to look like an underwear model or dancer won't ever look like that without the same.

Life isn't a bathroom break, there's no rush to get to the end. Worrying about how quickly you'll get to some imaginary end point instead of designing something you can stick with long term and will be happy doing is a mistake in my opinion. And you can look like an underwear model pretty without lifting, your diet just needs to be more rigorous.

People need to be given accurate information, but they very well may be able to achieve goal body composition without ever lifting weights. It really doesn't matter if it's more or less efficient, and if the less efficient path is one someone will be better able to stick with than whatever 'ideal' paradigm is being pushed...that less efficient way is better.

I have started adding weights/ toning now to get rid of my last few lbs and wobbly bits! I only want to be lean and firm really. I do yoga once a week. An hour of Leg weights, not heavy but at least 4 sets. Then an hour of arms but I only use 2kg weights but lots of reps. Then lots of core, varied sit ups. I try and do a class like spinning or zumba too. Muscle helps burn calories... pick up the weights lol xx

You pretty much missed the entire point of this and almost every other "heavy lifting" thread. If you can do lots of reps, it's not the sort of "weights" people are talking about.

I think I look pretty good with clothes on, but I'm pretty sure based on the pics and comments I've read here on MFP that I would be much happier and look better naked if I had lifted while I was losing weight.

Lol, can't really tell from your profile pics. Put up a couple naked and we'll let you know. j/k

Joking aside, one of the key things I feel that any trainer and anyone focused on weight loss should be concerned with is making most of that loss fat and minimizing lean muscle tissue loss. For that, I believe weight training is the most efficient route. Beyond that, I think there is something to be said for a balanced program that includes resistance training of some kind (weights, yoga, body weight), cardio and some form of functional training.

One of members Steve Troutman is a well respected fitness and nutrition professional. He made a statement refering to concern about the scale number but I think it really sums up a high level view of the ideal goal of a diet and fitness program.

"I simply don't think it's worth worrying about what your weight should be. Rather, worry about what your health, functionality, performance, and physique should be. Weight will settle where it needs to be once those things are optimized."

Optimizing health, functionality, performance and physique. That made sense to me when I first read it and it still does. Some people will never want to weight training and they'll get to the level of health, functionality, performance and physique they desire. I don't think it's any coincidnence that pretty much every top level expert, from Venuto to Troutman to Layne Norton to Lyle McDonald to Alan Aragon, that I've ever read thinks weight training is a critical peice of a total program though.

Nor is it any coincidence that almost every sport including gymnastics and dancing as has been mentioned here, but also baseball, track, football, basketball, wrestling etc, etc all include weight training in their training programs.

That said, body weight and yoga and other forms of exercise have a benefit and not everyone is looking for optimum or concerned about lean mass preservation. As we've seen in this thread. Does that mean there is no value to those forms of exercise? Not at all!

I really like the "Optimizing health, functionality, performance and physique" idea. And this is why I feel, as a person that has recently come back to lifting that xxxxxxx (lifting, running, yoga, etc) alone is insufficient, for me.

Not only do I have a large dislike of the absolutist approach but I feel that in terms of real-world dynamics no single training activity will provide me with everything.

Lifting is great - I'm a stronger climber and have better grip, leg strength, pull strength on the wall.
Yoga is great - my flexibility, auxilary strength in movement, reach, balance are better for it.
Neither gets me outdoors, and for this they both kinda suck, for me

It's a question of efficiency, pleasure, time-management to specific objectives.

Neither alone provides me what I want - in the end it's sterile to classify them as superior or not - it really is objective focused.

Edit: where are pics?