80/10/10--I'm doing it!

The really, really sad thing about veganism, and the thing that gets lost in all the debate is that, if we were all vegans (and that always seems to be the aim of vegans) you would only ever see a Cow, Sheep or Pig in a zoo. All those fields of quietly grazing animals with their calves and the lambs happily hopping around the pastures in spring time would be a thing of the past....

Is this a joke?

It's quite accurate actually. The only reason you see that now is because they're raised domestically for food.

The really, really sad thing about veganism, and the thing that gets lost in all the debate is that, if we were all vegans (and that always seems to be the aim of vegans) you would only ever see a Cow, Sheep or Pig in a zoo. All those fields of quietly grazing animals with their calves and the lambs happily hopping around the pastures in spring time would be a thing of the past....

Is this a joke?

It's quite accurate actually. The only reason you see that now is because they're raised domestically for food.

...

...

I just can't... even...

No.

You don't really believe those grocery store package lies, do you? I've seen your posts around, you're a sensible guy.

I've visited small local farms, AWA farms, they don't look like that. You just aren't getting the full picture of the life of a farmed animal if you keep only that image in your head.

ETA: And it's completely besides the point. Animals don't exist so we can pen them and watch them graze and prance for our own amusement.

There's the difference. I have no moral or ethical issue(s) raising animals for food. It really just makes hunting easier and food more available to the masses. I'm guessing you're not a pet owner either? (Neither am I.)

I wouldn't have an ethical issue with it either if we needed to eat them to survive, but we don't.

I do have a rescued cat.

Vegans aren't against providing proper care for the domestic animals that are alive now, we're responsible for them.

There's the difference. I have no moral or ethical issue(s) raising animals for food. It really just makes hunting easier and food more available to the masses. I'm guessing you're not a pet owner either? (Neither am I.)

I wouldn't have an ethical issue with it either if we needed to eat them to survive, but we don't.

I do have a rescued cat.

Vegans aren't against providing proper care for the domestic animals that are alive now, we're responsible for them.

There's no other way I can hit my protein goals (complete protein profiles) without animal flesh. That's the long and short of it. Plus it's delicious.

There are a lot of things you don't need to survive, but being the dominate species on the planet allows usto make our lives as convienent and comfortable as possible.

If you have an ethical or moral reason for being vegan, go for it! nothing wrong with that!

if you don't, then eating meat is fine.

HOWEVER, most of us would be healthier if we scaled back on how MUCH meat we eat daily. shockingly enough........ moderation.

There's no other way I can hit my protein goals (complete protein profiles) without animal flesh.

You should tell these guys there is "no other way".

snap!

The key word you both missed in that was I. Which can be for many various reasons, but in my case primarily convenience & cost. (Plus deliciousness)

yep. that's true. but that doesn't mean veganism is "sad"

they just have a moral objection to factory farmed meat, and you don't. YOU need meat. THEY don't. fair?

The key word you both missed in that was I. Which can be for many various reasons, but in my case primarily convenience & cost. (Plus deliciousness)

yep. that's true. but that doesn't mean veganism is "sad"

they just have a moral objection to factory farmed meat, and you don't. YOU need meat. THEY don't. fair?

Never said it was sad or bad...just don't subscribe to the beliefs.

sorry, thought the post about the "sad thing about veganism" was you. my mistake.

This 80/10/10 diet is a silly idea. You need way more than 10% of fat and protein. I'm pretty sure no one needs 80% carbs, you're asking for trouble with that much.

The World Health Organization's standard for adults is as follows:

10-15% of energy intake from protein
15-30% of energy intake from fats (and no more than 10% of energy intake from saturated fats)
Carbohydrate to provide the remaining energy intake by difference, thus, 55-75% of energy intake

Remember, this is the standard, NOT the bare minimum. So a person could very well live healthily at slightly lower levels.

How silly does this sound to you now?

The really, really sad thing about veganism, and the thing that gets lost in all the debate is that, if we were all vegans (and that always seems to be the aim of vegans) you would only ever see a Cow, Sheep or Pig in a zoo. All those fields of quietly grazing animals with their calves and the lambs happily hopping around the pastures in spring time would be a thing of the past....

Is this a joke?

It's quite accurate actually. The only reason you see that now is because they're raised domestically for food.

...

...

I just can't... even...

No.

You don't really believe those grocery store package lies, do you? I've seen your posts around, you're a sensible guy.

I've visited small local farms, AWA farms, they don't look like that. You just aren't getting the full picture of the life of a farmed animal if you keep only that image in your head.

ETA: And it's completely besides the point. Animals don't exist so we can pen them and watch them graze and prance for our own amusement.

There's the difference. I have no moral or ethical issue(s) raising animals for food. It really just makes hunting easier and food more available to the masses. I'm guessing you're not a pet owner either? (Neither am I.)

Actually, there is now a lot of evidence that the land needs large herds of grazing animals in order to avoid desertification. Allan Savory is a "...Zimbabwean biologist, farmer, soldier, exile, environmentalist, and winner of the 2003 Banksia International Award and the 2010 Buckminster Fuller Challenge. He is the originator of holistic management..." He has said that the greatest mistake of his career was urging the Rhodesian government to cull wild herds of animals as a means of preventing land degradation (desertification). The government then culled 40,000 elephants from the land. The desertification got worse.

We ourselves, are now at very serious risk because of the growing desertification throughout the planet. Even our own prairies were once lush grassland where "..the deer and the antelope play[ed]...". They were also home to great herds of buffalo which were culled as a means of genocide against the native Plains Indians. The land degradation is there for everyone to see today. At the bottom of my post is a link to Savory's TED lecture on the subject.

WE need animals as an efficient delivery system of high quality protein for a protein-hungry world, and now it appears that the land itself needs grazing animals to prosper, as well. We simply do not have enough crop growing ability to feed everyone with the massive quantity of vegetable matter that they would need to avoid protein deficiency. Animals are concentrated protein on the hoof. They convert vegetable matter into protein that humans need to survive (humans don't last long on a diet of grass--but cattle thrive). We are naturally omnivores. As a species, we simply do not prosper on an all plant diet. In every place that the people have a strictly plant-based diet, you see the shrunken stature and swollen bellies of children deprived of protein. The suffering of animals is regrettable but, to me, it is preferable to the suffering of children.

http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html

This 80/10/10 diet is a silly idea. You need way more than 10% of fat and protein. I'm pretty sure no one needs 80% carbs, you're asking for trouble with that much.

The World Health Organization's standard for adults is as follows:

10-15% of energy intake from protein
15-30% of energy intake from fats (and no more than 10% of energy intake from saturated fats)
Carbohydrate to provide the remaining energy intake by difference, thus, 55-75% of energy intake

Remember, this is the standard, NOT the bare minimum. So a person could very well live healthily at slightly lower levels.

How silly does this sound to you now?

Remember that this is for people not eating at a deficit. The 'average' calories assumed I believe are 2,100 (would need to double check that though) which, for fats would be 35g minimum of fats for healthy body function. This does not mean it is optimal for hormonal balance. For example, fats are important for testosterone levels. Many people dieting, especially women, are well below this amount, so the 10% would be significantly under the recommended amount for basic health. Example, someone on 1,400 calories a day at 10% = 15.6g, which is below the amount needed for health let alone good hormonal balance. A similar issue can be applied to protein, but in this case, the WHO recommendations are not for active people as well as people who are not at a deficit and even they say that it should be increased for active people. Also, adequate =/= optimal.

Consumption of animal products IS toxic. That is the ONLY place Cholesterol is found. And, what is the number one cause of death in the US right now? Heart disease. What causes heart disease, you ask? Cholesterol.

Your ignorance is staggering. Unfortunately for vegan ideologues, the lipid hypothesis has been long discredited, with the confounding factors of the China study in particular having been understood for decades now.

And I'm sure you know this, but dietary cholesterol only has clinically significant impact on serum cholesterol in the 5-8% of the human population that is susceptible to it. If you're one of those people, by all means, avoid eggs.

As for me, for every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three.

I think the poster is also forgetting that cholesterol is actually necessary.

Consumption of animal products IS toxic. That is the ONLY place Cholesterol is found. And, what is the number one cause of death in the US right now? Heart disease. What causes heart disease, you ask? Cholesterol.

Your ignorance is staggering. Unfortunately for vegan ideologues, the lipid hypothesis has been long discredited, with the confounding factors of the China study in particular having been understood for decades now.

And I'm sure you know this, but dietary cholesterol only has clinically significant impact on serum cholesterol in the 5-8% of the human population that is susceptible to it. If you're one of those people, by all means, avoid eggs.

As for me, for every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three.

There is now a lot of evidence that the land needs large herds of grazing animals in order to avoid desertification. Allan Savory is a "...Zimbabwean biologist, farmer, soldier, exile, environmentalist, and winner of the 2003 Banksia International Award and the 2010 Buckminster Fuller Challenge. He is the originator of holistic management..." He has said that the greatest mistake of his career was urging the Rhodesian government to cull wild herds of animals as a means of preventing land degradation (desertification). The government then culled 40,000 elephants from the land. The desertification got worse. When they put grazing animals (i.e. livestock) on the land, it became lush and green again.

We ourselves, are now at very serious risk because of the growing desertification throughout the planet. Even our own prairies were once lush grassland where "..the deer and the antelope play[ed]...". They were also home to great herds of buffalo which were culled as a means of genocide against the native Plains Indians. The land degradation is there for everyone to see today. At the bottom of my post is a link to Savory's TED lecture on the subject.

WE need animals as an efficient delivery system of high quality protein for a protein-hungry world, and now it appears that the land itself needs grazing animals to prosper, as well. We simply do not have enough crop growing ability to feed everyone with the massive quantity of vegetable matter that they would need to avoid protein deficiency. Animals are concentrated protein on the hoof. They convert vegetable matter into protein that humans need to survive (humans don't last long on a diet of grass--but cattle thrive). We are naturally omnivores. As a species, we simply do not prosper on an all plant diet. In every place that the people have a strictly plant-based diet, you see the shrunken stature and swollen bellies of children deprived of protein. The suffering of animals is regrettable but, to me, it is preferable to the suffering of children.

http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html

bump?

OP, my sincerest apologies. You stated you were new to the MFP forums. Here's what you need to know. You will bump into a Lot of people who feel very, Very strongly that they are Right, and their way is the Only way! Take it in stride. They mean well. I've never tried your approach. I don't think I could do it, but then, it doesn't have to work for me. It has to work for you. Welcome to the forums, and good luck.

The thread was started over a year ago - have been resurrected for some reason, but I doubt the OP will see it.

Maybe it hasn't drawn much interest because the medical community has pretty much conformed to the idea that, while vegetarian diets (diets that are heavily plant-based but include eggs, dairy and sometimes fish) can be quite healthy, in general, a strictly plant-based diet will be deficient in a lot of important nutrients--unless supplemented. And not everyone who starts a vegan diet on an idealistic urge, understands how to keep the diet healthy for themselves.