Where Does Frank Medrano Get His Protein?

scottaworley · August 2013

I've lost over 100 pounds in less than 6 months on a vegan diet. It is possible to gain weight and be unhealthy on a vegan diet, but a well-planned vegan diet that minimizes added fats and sugars has been very effective at reversing not only my obesity, but chest pains and poor health in general.

It is possible to lose weight on any number of diet strategies, but a well-planned and health-conscious vegan lifestyle is very effective for promoting long term health. I have never been remotely this close to a healthy weight in my entire adult life.

It has worked remarkably well for me, and I would encourage some of you in this thread to approach the subject with an open mind.

100 pounds in less than 6 months is losing weight too quickly. I'll stick with my 13 pounds in 9 weeks.

ILiftHeavyAcrylics · August 2013

one can find anecdotal evidence supporting the weight loss potential of just about everything, including bacon. Just because a person tries one method and succeeds in meeting a goal, does not mean that the method contributed to their success. In many, many, many cases it's actually the exact opposite (see: science). The human element of any such unregulated experiment categorically affects the outcome. If I want to make a bacon diet work, I can do it. It might take forever, and I might have a heart attack 5 years later because of it, but I can do it.

I'm not saying that being vegan will give you a heart attack. I'm saying that I grow tired of the non-scientific examples constantly (like, overwhelmingly frequently) cited on MFP as "evidence" of something. Whether it's eat more to lose weight, eat less to lose weight, drink this thing at this time always, never eat this, always eat this... you name it and someone has "proven" that it's the way to go. A picture of some chick who lost a bunch of weight and is also vegan does nothing to support your point or any other. Show me a double-blind, peer-reviewed study that has actually been published by an organization with some credibility, and I'll enjoy the hell out of reading it.

You're aware under our system, industry funds most scientific studies, so the study that you're crying for is not ever going to happen... And I understand you're from Texas, and maybe freedom of speech is not valued there, but I'm going to promote whatever I feel is right, and you're free to do the same... But I've had enough of closed minded bullies for one night...
This is our last conversation cowboy... Thanks for your comments, and have a great life...

This is incorrect - industry does not fund most scientific studies. While R&D is mostly industry paid, government and public funding is a huge part of it. While overall medical funding is about 40% public, this goes well above 70% when you take out product-related research.

Here try this --- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Now go see if one study shows that whey protein is bad for you.

Well here you go...
Part 1
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/protein-intake-and-igf-1-production/

Part 2
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/higher-quality-may-mean-higher-risk/

Well, that's some guy's blog not pubmed. So let's look at the source of information he used which is here: http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1441.full.pdf+html

First point - it says absolutely nothing, not one thing, does not mention whey at all.
So that's a fail.

Second of all - yes, IGF-1 production is lower in certain vegan/vegetarian diets. This is true. Is this good or bad? IGF-1 production is low basically because the amino acid profile in the study *may* be deficient.

Or as the authors put it:
"Vegan diets tends to be low in certain essential amino acids, and dietary restriction of one or more essential amino acids has been shown to reduce IGF-I and increase IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-2 production in animal (8, 34) and human feeding studies (35, 36). This may be attributable to an indirect effect of protein restriction in reducing growth hormone secretion and, hence, reducing IGF-I and increasing IGFBP-2 production (37) or a more direct effect of amino acid restriction in increasing IGFBP-1 production in hepatocytes (34, 38)."

So, the author's showed that *possibly* these diets were deficient in providing the essential elements for IGF-1.

So what is IGF-1 and is it bad?
Well, without it IGF-1 we have muscle atrophy and neuronal cell death. It is also a factor that is extremely important in my old field of research - bone growth. IGF-1 is a major positive element in bone growth through the activation of osteocytes.

That's strike two and three for that site.

Oh, wait, what does your site say about IGF-1 - It's all bad and promotes cancer, right?

In fact, the dude has a whole page on why IGF-1 is a "One Stop Cancer" something or other....
Here: http://nutritionfacts.org/video/igf-1-as-one-stop-cancer-shop/

Except what does a study he cite actually say?

Well, it sees some correlation but not much, not always and issues in study design. Strike 4.

Quote:
"For all exposures, there was substantial heterogeneity (all I(2) > 75%), partly explained by study design: the magnitude of associations was smaller in prospective vs. retrospective studies, and for IGFBP-3, the inverse association with prostate cancer risk was seen in retrospective but not prospective studies. There was weak evidence that associations of IGF-I and IGFBP-3 with prostate cancer were stronger for advanced disease. Our meta-analysis confirms that raised circulating lGF-I is positively associated with prostate cancer risk. Associations between IGFBP-3 and prostate cancer were inconsistent, and there was little evidence for a role of IGF-II, IGFBP-1 or IGFBP-2 in prostate cancer risk."

So form this - when levels from normal to raised one sees *possibly* an increase in risk of some cancers to conclude that artificially lowering normal levels will somehow be effective in reducing these risks is monkey droppings.

Strike 5.

None of these studies show whey to be bad. To promote cancer.

Now is IGF-1 expression an indicator of cancer - maybe. There are studies in cell cultures that suggest it might be. There are also studies in humans that show that overexpression is an indicator for LOW risk of breast cancer. (In all honesty, not only is this not my specialty but I would take the educated guess that IGF-1 will likely be found to "feed" certain types of tumors but not a real cause or "switch" of cancers. But that's a guess on my part and not really of value.)

That's strike 6.

Now again - is there a published, peer reviewed study that shows whey protein to be bad? I have not found one. Believe me I look, I read the source literature.

Oh, and about normal IGF-1 levels. I'm going to close with a quote from one of the studies he cites:

"Circulating levels of IGF-1 are regulated by insulin and the growth hormone. Malnutrition, fasting, liver disease and other severe diseases are associated with low IGF-1 concentration [16]. IGF-1 concentration decreases with aging [53]. Exercise is another important regulator of IGF-1 levels [60].

Several cross-sectional studies have found significant positive correlations between fitness level and circulating IGF-1 levels [24, 43, 70]. Such a correlation indicates that physical training leads to an increased activity of the IGF system. Higher levels of circulating IGF-1 and increased amplitude of spontaneous GH pulses were found in trained young males as compared with the untrained ones [43, 48, 70]. Studies on animals demonstrated that longer periods of training resulted in increased IGF-1 gene expression in the skeletal muscular tissue [108]."

So if you want to artificially lower your IGF-1 levels may I suggest stopping exercise, malnutrition and drinking to induce liver disease? Probably not a good idea...

tl;dr: IGF-1 good, too much or too little maybe bad.

I am, as always, proud to have you on my friend list.

rawfull · August 2013

Huhhh - My only source of animal protein is eggs from my own battery rescued hens, don't drink milk or eat dairy - but even I am embarrassed by the continual barrage of psuedo-science coming from the OP.

Please stop it - you are giving us (vegans/veggies/everyone in-between) a bad rep!

Agreed. This is exactly the reason why meat eaters feel obliged to start posting pics of burgers and such...to counteract the terrible 'sources' that some people use to force their views and try to make it sound like there is validity to it.

OP, you have yet to provide any credible evidence that meat has a negative impact on our health, assuming that a generally reasonable diet is adhered to. All you will find is correlation studies where the diet as a whole may contribute to an impact on health markers and diseases.

On behalf of all us non-preachy vegetarians/vegans/etc., sorry for all the pseudoscience being thrown around in this thread. We don't all believe that crap.

I chose to stop eating meat because I don't like it. It's also easier for me to watch my fat and calorie intakes without it, and I eat healthier because I don't eat fast food like before. It works for me. My boyfriend loves steak and bacon and makes them all the time; it works for him. Find what works for you and enjoy it, but treat your preferences like your d*ck - there's no need to wave it around in everyone's faces or shove it down anyone's throat unless they ask you to.

Thank you for your comment, but will not stop promoting what's working for me, everyone has the right to eat or not eat whatever they want, and no one has the right to censor anyone's speech... So, no matter how much you beg and cry, I will continue to speak freely... No one is forcing anyone to do anything, everyone is free to eat whatever you want...

Thanks again for your comments, but now my conversation with you is done, have a wonderful life...

EvgeniZyntx · August 2013

one can find anecdotal evidence supporting the weight loss potential of just about everything, including bacon. Just because a person tries one method and succeeds in meeting a goal, does not mean that the method contributed to their success. In many, many, many cases it's actually the exact opposite (see: science). The human element of any such unregulated experiment categorically affects the outcome. If I want to make a bacon diet work, I can do it. It might take forever, and I might have a heart attack 5 years later because of it, but I can do it.

I'm not saying that being vegan will give you a heart attack. I'm saying that I grow tired of the non-scientific examples constantly (like, overwhelmingly frequently) cited on MFP as "evidence" of something. Whether it's eat more to lose weight, eat less to lose weight, drink this thing at this time always, never eat this, always eat this... you name it and someone has "proven" that it's the way to go. A picture of some chick who lost a bunch of weight and is also vegan does nothing to support your point or any other. Show me a double-blind, peer-reviewed study that has actually been published by an organization with some credibility, and I'll enjoy the hell out of reading it.

You're aware under our system, industry funds most scientific studies, so the study that you're crying for is not ever going to happen... And I understand you're from Texas, and maybe freedom of speech is not valued there, but I'm going to promote whatever I feel is right, and you're free to do the same... But I've had enough of closed minded bullies for one night...
This is our last conversation cowboy... Thanks for your comments, and have a great life...

This is incorrect - industry does not fund most scientific studies. While R&D is mostly industry paid, government and public funding is a huge part of it. While overall medical funding is about 40% public, this goes well above 70% when you take out product-related research.

Here try this --- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Now go see if one study shows that whey protein is bad for you.

The government is controlled totally by corporate interests...
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/dietary-guidelines-usda-conflicts-of-interest/

tin foil time.

I watched that video. It doesn't say that.
And the foods that get mentioned, well, they are from the pie charts that the government publishes...

http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2010/DietaryGuidelines2010.pdf

neanderthin · August 2013

I actually have a real question for this thread, since we seem to have attracted a good cross-section of vegetarian/vegan types.

Why did you choose vegetarianism/veganism? For those who may have done it out of an animal cruelty/respect/etc. type motivation, do you believe that people who choose to continue to eat meat contribute to these things?

It's an honest question -- and I'll go off the reservation of nutrition into the ideas of food philosophy at this point -- because, while I'm a meat eater, I have a strong respect for what goes into the food that I eat, and try to behave accordingly. I think there would be some overlap in our beliefs, actually -- I dislike the comfortable notion that people have that meat comes from convenient shrink-wrapped packages at the grocery store while ignoring everything that goes into getting it there.

I feel like people prefer believing that they're eating abstract pieces of meat - not cows, or pigs, or chickens, that were at one point alive and doing their thing. I've taken animals from the farm to the table, and felt like that is the respectful way to treat the thing that is providing you life. Wasting meat is, in my eyes, a tragedy - I tend to eat nose-to-tail and love me some offal.

I don't know why I posted this -- I just thought it was an interesting concept in that both vegans and I might feel the same way about certain meat-eaters, but the dietary philosophy behind it is radically different.

I agree with your basic philosophy regarding nose to tail, local and responsible farming practices. I also have this notion that all living things including plants should be treated with respect but then again I'm a chef who butchers my own animals for the most part and an avid gardener..............sometimes I think when people have a total disconnect with nature, food sources, farms and find themselves living fast and head down urban lifestyle that might influence how one may feel about those factors.

ewrob · August 2013

100 pounds in less than 6 months is losing weight too quickly. I'll stick with my 13 pounds in 9 weeks.

Based on your ticker, you have far less weight to lose than I did. How can you say I am losing weight too quickly? You are just making that assumption because my level of success conflicts with your expectations. I am living a very healthy lifestyle while aggressively pursuing two sports. I would not be able to go on a 50+ mile bike ride if I was undernourished, for example.

Sarauk2sf · August 2013

I actually have a real question for this thread, since we seem to have attracted a good cross-section of vegetarian/vegan types.

Why did you choose vegetarianism/veganism? For those who may have done it out of an animal cruelty/respect/etc. type motivation, do you believe that people who choose to continue to eat meat contribute to these things?

It's an honest question -- and I'll go off the reservation of nutrition into the ideas of food philosophy at this point -- because, while I'm a meat eater, I have a strong respect for what goes into the food that I eat, and try to behave accordingly. I think there would be some overlap in our beliefs, actually -- I dislike the comfortable notion that people have that meat comes from convenient shrink-wrapped packages at the grocery store while ignoring everything that goes into getting it there.

I feel like people prefer believing that they're eating abstract pieces of meat - not cows, or pigs, or chickens, that were at one point alive and doing their thing. I've taken animals from the farm to the table, and felt like that is the respectful way to treat the thing that is providing you life. Wasting meat is, in my eyes, a tragedy - I tend to eat nose-to-tail and love me some offal.

I don't know why I posted this -- I just thought it was an interesting concept in that both vegans and I might feel the same way about certain meat-eaters, but the dietary philosophy behind it is radically different.

I usually do not discuss why I am a vegetarian as it is personal to me and has evolved over time. However, that being said, I first became a vegetarian about 25 years ago. I was a member of all these anti cruel sports groups and the like and was 'wait...I am eating them!". So I stopped. When I first became a vegetarian I was a bit more militant in saying other people should not etc meat (although not obnoxiously so). Since then I have realized that it really is not as simple as that, as, for example, a vegan can turn around and question my ethics as I have dairy, and so on. I am still a vegetarian, and have been for the last 25 years, and am unlikely to change as it is what I am comfortable with for my own personal belief system. I do not however judge *most* people for eating meat (as is probably evidenced by my responses in this thread). I will judge people for knowingly and intentionally causing unnecessary suffering to animals however...that part has not changed.

scottaworley · August 2013

100 pounds in less than 6 months is losing weight too quickly. I'll stick with my 13 pounds in 9 weeks.

Based on your ticker, you have far less weight to lose than I did. How can you say I am losing weight too quickly? You are just making that assumption because my level of success conflicts with your expectations. I am living a very healthy lifestyle while aggressively pursuing two sports. I would not be able to go on a 50+ mile bike ride if I was undernourished, for example.

The rule of thumb is typically about 2 pounds per week. If you have a lot of weight to lose you can maybe push that to 3, but you should really probably eat more to avoid metabolic adaptation and to preserve muscle mass.
I was not being entirely serious in my previous post. Congratulations on your weight loss!
ETA: I was on a non-vegan high. Forgive me if I seemed rude:)

Sarauk2sf · August 2013

Huhhh - My only source of animal protein is eggs from my own battery rescued hens, don't drink milk or eat dairy - but even I am embarrassed by the continual barrage of psuedo-science coming from the OP.

Please stop it - you are giving us (vegans/veggies/everyone in-between) a bad rep!

Agreed. This is exactly the reason why meat eaters feel obliged to start posting pics of burgers and such...to counteract the terrible 'sources' that some people use to force their views and try to make it sound like there is validity to it.

OP, you have yet to provide any credible evidence that meat has a negative impact on our health, assuming that a generally reasonable diet is adhered to. All you will find is correlation studies where the diet as a whole may contribute to an impact on health markers and diseases.

On behalf of all us non-preachy vegetarians/vegans/etc., sorry for all the pseudoscience being thrown around in this thread. We don't all believe that crap.

I chose to stop eating meat because I don't like it. It's also easier for me to watch my fat and calorie intakes without it, and I eat healthier because I don't eat fast food like before. It works for me. My boyfriend loves steak and bacon and makes them all the time; it works for him. Find what works for you and enjoy it, but treat your preferences like your d*ck - there's no need to wave it around in everyone's faces or shove it down anyone's throat unless they ask you to.

Thank you for your comment, but will not stop promoting what's working for me, everyone has the right to eat or not eat whatever they want, and no one has the right to censor anyone's speech... So, no matter how much you beg and cry, I will continue to speak freely... No one is forcing anyone to do anything, everyone is free to eat whatever you want...

Thanks again for your comments, but now my conversation with you is done, have a wonderful life...

No one is saying not to tell people what is working for you (btw, it is not working for you as you were not a raw vegan as of 2 days ago). They are saying stop with trying to support your outrageous claims (read back to the first few pages) with you tube videos.

DebbieLyn63 · August 2013

You might want to check your entries in your diary. For example:

Orville Redenbacher's - Original Popcorn Popped, 10 cup: 150 calories with 290g cho, 15g fat and 40g protein (you do not have fiber but its about 6g).

Also....ummm...Butter - Unsalted, 1 stick - for 810 calories and you are going on about saturated fats...give me a break.

You're absolutely right, I ate what I ate, I was honest, and you can condemn me for that ...

I am not condemning you for what you ate. I do find your approach in this thread highly hypocritical however.

ETA: I mentioned the popcorn as the macros really are screwed up - just as an FYI.

I've always had a problem with food, and I'm not perfect... I try to be honest, and I keep my food diary open...
And I do try to promote, what I feel is a healthy way to eat...
How would someone like you approach this subject, I'm willing to learn from anyone...

I understand that you are probably desperate to lose your extra weight, and you have found something that sounds like a great way to do that. Unfortunately, the drastic changes you have made, will probably not be sustainable for you and you will end up binging quite often and feeling like a failure.
Protein is very important for many reasons. It is possible to get your minimum protein needs on a vegan diet, but very difficult. Not bashing Vegan at all, but those who do it successfully over a long period of time, have done their homework and have found ways to get their protein in with eating real food.

If your concern is about the hormones and crap added to animal proteins, then check out the Paleo/Primal eating plan. It promotes eating whole foods that are not processed, no hormones or other additives, etc.

You will be very satisfied eating the foods that are promoted with that lifestyle and will most likely not be feeling the need to binge.

You have a long ways to go, so you need to find a plan that is sustainable for you. Not guaranteeing that Paleo will be it, but at least look into other plans. Also talk to men who have started where you are now and have succeeded in losing the weight and getting healthier. Find out how they did it, and how they are keeping the weight off.

Ed Davenport would be my first suggestion for you. He lost 300 pounds simply by calorie deficit and exercise.

Moderation is an important part of this process. It is easy to get caught up in the hype of one way of doing this, and losing sight of the overall picture.

Wishing you the best.

mrmagee3 · August 2013

I actually have a real question for this thread, since we seem to have attracted a good cross-section of vegetarian/vegan types.

Why did you choose vegetarianism/veganism? For those who may have done it out of an animal cruelty/respect/etc. type motivation, do you believe that people who choose to continue to eat meat contribute to these things?

It's an honest question -- and I'll go off the reservation of nutrition into the ideas of food philosophy at this point -- because, while I'm a meat eater, I have a strong respect for what goes into the food that I eat, and try to behave accordingly. I think there would be some overlap in our beliefs, actually -- I dislike the comfortable notion that people have that meat comes from convenient shrink-wrapped packages at the grocery store while ignoring everything that goes into getting it there.

I feel like people prefer believing that they're eating abstract pieces of meat - not cows, or pigs, or chickens, that were at one point alive and doing their thing. I've taken animals from the farm to the table, and felt like that is the respectful way to treat the thing that is providing you life. Wasting meat is, in my eyes, a tragedy - I tend to eat nose-to-tail and love me some offal.

I don't know why I posted this -- I just thought it was an interesting concept in that both vegans and I might feel the same way about certain meat-eaters, but the dietary philosophy behind it is radically different.

I usually do not discuss why I am a vegetarian as it is personal to me and has evolved over time. However, that being said, I first became a vegetarian about 25 years ago. I was a member of all these anti cruel sports groups and the like and was 'wait...I am eating them!". So I stopped. When I first became a vegetarian I was a bit more militant in saying other people should not etc meat (although not obnoxiously so). Since then I have realized that it really is not as simple as that, as, for example, a vegan can turn around and question my ethics as I have dairy, and so on. I am still a vegetarian, and have been for the last 25 years, and am unlikely to change as it is what I am comfortable with for my own personal belief system. I do not however judge *most* people for eating meat (as is probably evidenced by my responses in this thread). I will judge people for knowingly and intentionally causing unnecessary suffering to animals however...that part has not changed.

Thanks for the response - I didn't meant to pry into something private. I don't think there's anything wrong with vegetarianism or veganism -- it's a personal choice and all are free to make their own. I just thought it was interesting how multiple people can approach the same issues (regarding animal treatment, food sourcing, etc.) in radically different ways.

You won't find any argument from me for people who abuse animals. They're among my most disliked people.

LJSmith1989 · August 2013

Not once does the OP mention animal suffering in all his "talk"...

Thats the whole point of Vegan.

VBnotbitter · August 2013

Seriously OP why are you still going with this? Since you've started this thread I've done an afternoons work, run errands, cooked dinner, eaten it and spent an evening relaxing. You apparently have pulled an all nighter arguing with people, who just want you to provide valid evidence for you claims.

If you had just said "hey I'm on a raw food vegan diet and enjoying" a couple of people might have said "not my bag but good on ya for finding something you like" and then you could have got a nights sleep. But no you want to "promote" and critise everyone elses food choices. for that you need quality evidence which you refuse to provide. Give it a rest now for pity's sake.

(Oh and Freelee and Durianrider of the 50 bananas a day fame are a couple of Queensland stoners with a video camera and too much time on their hands. Not someone to quote if you want to be taken seriously)

_noob_ · August 2013

I gotta give mad props to the OP on this one. THAT is how internetting is done folks.

Sarauk2sf · August 2013

Thanks for the response - I didn't meant to pry into something private. I don't think there's anything wrong with vegetarianism or veganism -- it's a personal choice and all are free to make their own. I just thought it was interesting how multiple people can approach the same issues (regarding animal treatment, food sourcing, etc.) in radically different ways.

You won't find any argument from me for people who abuse animals. They're among my most disliked people.

Oh, I did not mean private in that way - it is just that it often sparks strawman arguments and discussions that are not relevant or misconstrued. I mean it more as a personal thing that is a little hard to articulate sometimes as there is an emotional element to it.

I think most vegetarians, vegans and meat eaters can find a common ground in the 'ethical' treatment of animals. The degree of personal comfort level may vary, but that is not to say one person is 'better' than the other - they just have different levels that are comfortable for them.

bwright9752 · August 2013

I am not anti meat eaters hell my husband is one but I wish people would at least eat with more reverence something died to feed you no matter what you eat don't waste food! I know that's not the topic here but throwing that out there since there are a lot of people arguing about silly things

are you saying plants aren't alive?

Plants are alive and just like the animals that died to feed you, they were born/planted and raised to feed you. If we didn't eat them they never would have been born. I agree with not wasting food, buy what you need, eat what you can and use the leftovers.

LJSmith1989 · August 2013

I am not anti meat eaters hell my husband is one but I wish people would at least eat with more reverence something died to feed you no matter what you eat don't waste food! I know that's not the topic here but throwing that out there since there are a lot of people arguing about silly things

are you saying plants aren't alive?

Plants are alive and just like the animals that died to feed you, they were born/planted and raised to feed you. If we didn't eat them they never would have been born. I agree with not wasting food, buy what you need, eat what you can and use the leftovers.

So you saying you think plants can feel pain? Like a calf? Or a piglet?

Yogi_Carl · August 2013

Why did you choose vegetarianism/veganism? For those who may have done it out of an animal cruelty/respect/etc. type motivation, do you believe that people who choose to continue to eat meat contribute to these things?

I did promise myself I wouldn’t get into these debates on MFP (or anywhere else) as they have a tendency to go downhill very quickly. However …

If you were to look at my diary over the past few months you would dismiss me as a hypocrite if I claimed to be vegan, but that is because I am still finding my settled position within the ethics of this question.

I did start out about thirty years ago as a somewhat militant vegetarian, went through the concept that being veggie felt more hypocritical than the omnivorous diet as I was still buying into the meat market through consumption of dairy products, back to being omnivore because there was “little I could do to change things”.

Recently I have veered more towards being vegan – because of the dairy thing – but allowing eggs into my diet because I have some rescued battery hens at home and those birds will be allowed to retire gracefully and not culled just because they don’t produce eggs any more – they are still very good manure machines for the rest of my veggie plot!

I never judge people for eating meat – their choice – but I do promote that people should look for the most humane conditions and treatment of the animals they opt to consume. The main reason I opt not to eat meat is that even though there are strict rules in place to ensure that animals are treated and slaughtered as humanely as possible, things still go wrong on a daily basis and are bound to get worse as demand increases and pace needs to pick up to meet those demands.

EvgeniZyntx · August 2013

I actually have a real question for this thread, since we seem to have attracted a good cross-section of vegetarian/vegan types.

Why did you choose vegetarianism/veganism? For those who may have done it out of an animal cruelty/respect/etc. type motivation, do you believe that people who choose to continue to eat meat contribute to these things?

It's an honest question -- and I'll go off the reservation of nutrition into the ideas of food philosophy at this point -- because, while I'm a meat eater, I have a strong respect for what goes into the food that I eat, and try to behave accordingly. I think there would be some overlap in our beliefs, actually -- I dislike the comfortable notion that people have that meat comes from convenient shrink-wrapped packages at the grocery store while ignoring everything that goes into getting it there.

I feel like people prefer believing that they're eating abstract pieces of meat - not cows, or pigs, or chickens, that were at one point alive and doing their thing. I've taken animals from the farm to the table, and felt like that is the respectful way to treat the thing that is providing you life. Wasting meat is, in my eyes, a tragedy - I tend to eat nose-to-tail and love me some offal.

I don't know why I posted this -- I just thought it was an interesting concept in that both vegans and I might feel the same way about certain meat-eaters, but the dietary philosophy behind it is radically different.

I usually do not discuss why I am a vegetarian as it is personal to me and has evolved over time. However, that being said, I first became a vegetarian about 25 years ago. I was a member of all these anti cruel sports groups and the like and was 'wait...I am eating them!". So I stopped. When I first became a vegetarian I was a bit more militant in saying other people should not etc meat (although not obnoxiously so). Since then I have realized that it really is not as simple as that, as, for example, a vegan can turn around and question my ethics as I have dairy, and so on. I am still a vegetarian, and have been for the last 25 years, and am unlikely to change as it is what I am comfortable with for my own personal belief system. I do not however judge *most* people for eating meat (as is probably evidenced by my responses in this thread). I will judge people for knowingly and intentionally causing unnecessary suffering to animals however...that part has not changed.

As a lover of food - I tend to eat nose to tail also and the reason I am NOT a vegetarian is that I just find it too complicated in the environments I live. And perhaps also that some of the substitute prepared foods that are now available (more and more in Germany) are often bad ersatz copies - I rather make a schnitzel fresh from something I bought cut at the butcher's than the food in a box that tastes a bit soggy.
But the idea of reducing meat dependency is attractive for a variety of reasons; it's still likely I won't ever be a true vegetarian/vegan.
I do tend to look critically at people IRL when it impacts me socially (cooking/dining out) and when state they are going vegetarian as it is sometimes just an excuse to food restrict and shows an attitude towards food that is unhealthy. Someone recently told me they had gone vegan because processed food was bad for them; they were serving me a quorn burger at the time. lol. I like vegetarians because some of the food stuff is excellent quality and wouldn't be around without their market. Tempeh is great.

But what you chose to eat/not eat - it's fine by me. It's highly likely that *something* I eat will disgust you. Try not to show it.

mrmagee3 · August 2013

I did promise myself I wouldn’t get into these debates on MFP (or anywhere else) as they have a tendency to go downhill very quickly. However …

If you were to look at my diary over the past few months you would dismiss me as a hypocrite if I claimed to be vegan, but that is because I am still finding my settled position within the ethics of this question.

I did start out about thirty years ago as a somewhat militant vegetarian, went through the concept that being veggie felt more hypocritical than the omnivorous diet as I was still buying into the meat market through consumption of dairy products, back to being omnivore because there was “little I could do to change things”.

Recently I have veered more towards being vegan – because of the dairy thing – but allowing eggs into my diet because I have some rescued battery hens at home and those birds will be allowed to retire gracefully and not culled just because they don’t produce eggs any more – they are still very good manure machines for the rest of my veggie plot!

I appreciate your reply and thoughts -- and the idea of retired egg chickens hanging around and doing retired-chicken stuff (which, in my mind, involves chaise lounges and umbrella drinks) made me chuckle. I have an active imagination at times.

I never judge people for eating meat – their choice – but I do promote that people should look for the most humane conditions and treatment of the animals they opt to consume. The main reason I opt not to eat meat is that even though there are strict rules in place to ensure that animals are treated and slaughtered as humanely as possible, things still go wrong on a daily basis and are bound to get worse as demand increases and pace needs to pick up to meet those demands.

I think that there's a lot in here that we agree upon (as there was in the rest of your post). As Sarah had mentioned previously, we might have a difference of opinion as to what is humane and what is not, but I think those differences would be in a very narrow range at the good end of the "humane spectrum". At the opposite end, most reasonable people can recognize when animals are being mistreated, and desire to do something about it.

Thanks again for your response. I truly hope my question doesn't spark a debate/flame war -- it wasn't my intention.

Yogi_Carl · August 2013

@MrMagee - no problem; a pleasure to share - while the debate is still amicable!

bwright9752 · August 2013

RAW FOOD WEIGHT LOSS: I eat up to 50 bananas a day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UK-aX0_fAw

That sounds sustainable. You better move a lot closer to the banana trees if you are going to eat that many bananas a day.

PikaKnight · August 2013

Huhhh - My only source of animal protein is eggs from my own battery rescued hens, don't drink milk or eat dairy - but even I am embarrassed by the continual barrage of psuedo-science coming from the OP.

Please stop it - you are giving us (vegans/veggies/everyone in-between) a bad rep!

Agreed. This is exactly the reason why meat eaters feel obliged to start posting pics of burgers and such...to counteract the terrible 'sources' that some people use to force their views and try to make it sound like there is validity to it.

OP, you have yet to provide any credible evidence that meat has a negative impact on our health, assuming that a generally reasonable diet is adhered to. All you will find is correlation studies where the diet as a whole may contribute to an impact on health markers and diseases.

On behalf of all us non-preachy vegetarians/vegans/etc., sorry for all the pseudoscience being thrown around in this thread. We don't all believe that crap.

I chose to stop eating meat because I don't like it. It's also easier for me to watch my fat and calorie intakes without it, and I eat healthier because I don't eat fast food like before. It works for me. My boyfriend loves steak and bacon and makes them all the time; it works for him. Find what works for you and enjoy it, but treat your preferences like your d*ck - there's no need to wave it around in everyone's faces or shove it down anyone's throat unless they ask you to.

I think Crista_B just became my fav person of the day! :flowerforyou:

Asking someone about being a vegetarian/vegan and getting info is different from those trying to shame and scare others into eating/being like them.

I luv and admire people that live their life they way they want to and don't seek validation for their efforts, nor try to act as fear mongerers and encourage cultish and linear thinking. It amazes me when people who do this will be the first to accuse others of not being open-minded, when it is they who hold so tight to their beliefs that they blind themselves to both differing proofs, as well as facts.

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier... " Chris Tucker as Rufus, Dogma.

crista_b · August 2013

Huhhh - My only source of animal protein is eggs from my own battery rescued hens, don't drink milk or eat dairy - but even I am embarrassed by the continual barrage of psuedo-science coming from the OP.

Please stop it - you are giving us (vegans/veggies/everyone in-between) a bad rep!

Agreed. This is exactly the reason why meat eaters feel obliged to start posting pics of burgers and such...to counteract the terrible 'sources' that some people use to force their views and try to make it sound like there is validity to it.

OP, you have yet to provide any credible evidence that meat has a negative impact on our health, assuming that a generally reasonable diet is adhered to. All you will find is correlation studies where the diet as a whole may contribute to an impact on health markers and diseases.

On behalf of all us non-preachy vegetarians/vegans/etc., sorry for all the pseudoscience being thrown around in this thread. We don't all believe that crap.

I chose to stop eating meat because I don't like it. It's also easier for me to watch my fat and calorie intakes without it, and I eat healthier because I don't eat fast food like before. It works for me. My boyfriend loves steak and bacon and makes them all the time; it works for him. Find what works for you and enjoy it, but treat your preferences like your d*ck - there's no need to wave it around in everyone's faces or shove it down anyone's throat unless they ask you to.

OMG...I think I kinda love you :flowerforyou:

Awww. It's an honor to be loved by one of my favorite MFP members. :blushing:

PikaKnight · August 2013

I am not anti meat eaters hell my husband is one but I wish people would at least eat with more reverence something died to feed you no matter what you eat don't waste food! I know that's not the topic here but throwing that out there since there are a lot of people arguing about silly things

are you saying plants aren't alive?

Plants are alive and just like the animals that died to feed you, they were born/planted and raised to feed you. If we didn't eat them they never would have been born. I agree with not wasting food, buy what you need, eat what you can and use the leftovers.

So you saying you think plants can feel pain? Like a calf? Or a piglet?

I believe this, yes. I grew up with heavy influences of Shintoism (and if I had to say what religion I am, it'd be Shinto) and I was raised that everything has a spirit.

crista_b · August 2013

Huhhh - My only source of animal protein is eggs from my own battery rescued hens, don't drink milk or eat dairy - but even I am embarrassed by the continual barrage of psuedo-science coming from the OP.

Please stop it - you are giving us (vegans/veggies/everyone in-between) a bad rep!

Agreed. This is exactly the reason why meat eaters feel obliged to start posting pics of burgers and such...to counteract the terrible 'sources' that some people use to force their views and try to make it sound like there is validity to it.

OP, you have yet to provide any credible evidence that meat has a negative impact on our health, assuming that a generally reasonable diet is adhered to. All you will find is correlation studies where the diet as a whole may contribute to an impact on health markers and diseases.

On behalf of all us non-preachy vegetarians/vegans/etc., sorry for all the pseudoscience being thrown around in this thread. We don't all believe that crap.

I chose to stop eating meat because I don't like it. It's also easier for me to watch my fat and calorie intakes without it, and I eat healthier because I don't eat fast food like before. It works for me. My boyfriend loves steak and bacon and makes them all the time; it works for him. Find what works for you and enjoy it, but treat your preferences like your d*ck - there's no need to wave it around in everyone's faces or shove it down anyone's throat unless they ask you to.

I think Crista_B just became my fav person of the day! :flowerforyou:

Asking someone about being a vegetarian/vegan and getting info is different from those trying to shame and scare others into eating/being like them.

I luv and admire people that live their life they way they want to and don't seek validation for their efforts, nor try to act as fear mongerers and encourage cultish and linear thinking. It amazes me when people who do this will be the first to accuse others of not being open-minded, when it is they who hold so tight to their beliefs that they blind themselves to both differing proofs, as well as facts.

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier... " Chris Tucker as Rufus, Dogma.

Y'all are so sweet! :blushing: You're also one of my favorites on this site.

bwright9752 · August 2013

RAW FOOD WEIGHT LOSS: I eat up to 50 bananas a day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UK-aX0_fAw

Why would you want to? I like bananas but that sounds terrible.

Because he is a totally addictive personality who has no self control so if someone says he should eat bananas, by god he'll eat 50 of them a day...til he gets bored of that and he finds something else that is good for him and he goes way over the top with that. I'm betting there was
Evidence of being addictive...
-The way he got here, he didn't just eat meat, he ate a lot of everything.
-Way over the top on the vegan thing forcing it down everyone's throat
-Eating a whole bag of micro popcorn with a stick of butter (btw, i hear micro cooking causes cancer)
Ever hear of moderation? I bet he was smoker at some point too and when he quit he gave all smokers he11 for smoking.

bwright9752 · August 2013

RAW FOOD WEIGHT LOSS: I eat up to 50 bananas a day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UK-aX0_fAw

Old mate is a tripper.

BTW I had a friend try this. She looked like she was pregnant, fruit was fermenting in her stomach.

I'm thinking eat a lot of corn and some yeast.

Getting drunk without drinking doesn't sound so bad..

I need to find a way to distill whiskey, directly in my stomach.

crista_b · August 2013

I actually have a real question for this thread, since we seem to have attracted a good cross-section of vegetarian/vegan types.

Why did you choose vegetarianism/veganism? For those who may have done it out of an animal cruelty/respect/etc. type motivation, do you believe that people who choose to continue to eat meat contribute to these things?

It's an honest question -- and I'll go off the reservation of nutrition into the ideas of food philosophy at this point -- because, while I'm a meat eater, I have a strong respect for what goes into the food that I eat, and try to behave accordingly. I think there would be some overlap in our beliefs, actually -- I dislike the comfortable notion that people have that meat comes from convenient shrink-wrapped packages at the grocery store while ignoring everything that goes into getting it there.

I feel like people prefer believing that they're eating abstract pieces of meat - not cows, or pigs, or chickens, that were at one point alive and doing their thing. I've taken animals from the farm to the table, and felt like that is the respectful way to treat the thing that is providing you life. Wasting meat is, in my eyes, a tragedy - I tend to eat nose-to-tail and love me some offal.

I don't know why I posted this -- I just thought it was an interesting concept in that both vegans and I might feel the same way about certain meat-eaters, but the dietary philosophy behind it is radically different.

When I first decided to quit eating meat it was partly because I don't like it. I would always drown everything in sauces and other stuff so that I wouldn't have to taste the meat. I realized that was kind of stupid when I could just eat something else.

It was also partly because I was under the mistaken impression that by cutting out meat, I could lose weight (I was also counting calories, but not looking at my macros). Since then, I've learned that obviously there are healthy and unhealthy people in every group, be it meat-eaters, lacto-ovo vegetarians, vegans, raw food eaters, etc. While I have gotten healthier, it's not just from cutting out meat; it's a result of the fact that I don't eat much fast food at all anymore. I make most of my meals now whereas before, I'd just stop at McDonalds for a cheeseburger or something if I wasn't in the mood to wait for a chicken breast to cook.

I've learned to make some great recipes without meat, and as long as I continue to feel good, I'll stay on this path. For me, my overall health and eating things I like is what's most important.

Most people don't realize I'm vegetarian, and some of my best friends tend to forget. Actually just recently, one of my friends got a turkey sandwich and only wanted half so she offered the rest of it to me. I just said no thanks, and awhile later, she goes, "Oh yeah! I totally forgot you're a vegetarian when I offered that sandwich to you." :laugh:

BeachIron · August 2013

@MrMagee - no problem; a pleasure to share - while the debate is still amicable!

As I said in a slightly different way earlier, the one thing I love about OPs like this is that they tend to pull people from differing perspectives into a reasonable debate. It's a strange phenomenon, but we see it all the time.

Where Does Frank Medrano Get His Protein?

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