Why is this even remotely controversial?
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The pushback and outrage on this is a window to our society. This woman makes other women feel insecure and insulted by the fact that she exists and they have been shown her picture. I am currently serving in a place where a woman posing like that is not allowed in most of the country (and was not allowed anywhere in the country12 years ago). It looks like the Western World is headed towards restrictions like that faster than the Middle East is headed for more freedom and liberty for individuals.
I really do not doubt that our society will generate towards the position that this woman's picture will be labeled "bullying" and she will be guilty of a Hate crime. The solution will be that only plus-sized women will be allowed to display their bodies. Women like this will be forced to wear full bodied burkhas to protect the feelings of all those hard-working women who don't have the luxury of looking ike that.0 -
You clearly never set foot in my house growing up. My mother is the exact opposite. I grew up in chaos. Her best friend and her daughter (who is my best friend) and my father's sister whom I'm very close to and lived with for a while all live in chaos. They are not dirty people, but they aren't NEAT people, either. My mother always says my neat-freakiness is me rebelling against her.Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
I'm a Capricorn. That's why I clean so much. I need order in my life, whether it's a clean house or decorations just right. I need a very specific environment to function on any level. It isn't society. It's who I am. When i move to a new place, my boxes are unpacked and everything put away within the first week because I just can't stand things being cluttered. And if I asked my SO to do more, he would without argument. But I can't even stand how he stacks dishes in the dishrack. He doesn't do it "right" (i.e. MY way).
But thank you for the psycho-analysis of someone you don't know anything about. :flowerforyou:
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.0 -
I helped with housework as a kid. I was definitely not trained to notice dust, dirt, or clutter in the process. Unfortunately, my husband does. He's the control freak about that, so he does the majority of the cleaning. I'm the control freak on nutrition, so I do the majority of the cooking. It's part of maintaining a household. I don't feel objectified when I'm doing either. I feel like I'm taking care of what's mine.
You clearly never set foot in my house growing up. My mother is the exact opposite. I grew up in chaos. Her best friend and her daughter (who is my best friend) and my father's sister whom I'm very close to and lived with for a while all live in chaos. They are not dirty people, but they aren't NEAT people, either. My mother always says my neat-freakiness is me rebelling against her.Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
I'm a Capricorn. That's why I clean so much. I need order in my life, whether it's a clean house or decorations just right. I need a very specific environment to function on any level. It isn't society. It's who I am. When i move to a new place, my boxes are unpacked and everything put away within the first week because I just can't stand things being cluttered. And if I asked my SO to do more, he would without argument. But I can't even stand how he stacks dishes in the dishrack. He doesn't do it "right" (i.e. MY way).
But thank you for the psycho-analysis of someone you don't know anything about. :flowerforyou:
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.0 -
I helped with housework as a kid. I was definitely not trained to notice dust, dirt, or clutter in the process. Unfortunately, my husband does. He's the control freak about that, so he does the majority of the cleaning. I'm the control freak on nutrition, so I do the majority of the cooking. It's part of maintaining a household. I don't feel objectified when I'm doing either. I feel like I'm taking care of what's mine.
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.
that's wonderful -- i'm glad it's worked out in your home.
i did not say it applied in every case, though, did i?0 -
Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
yeah maybe some people but this is not a legitimate barrier to being in great physical shape.0 -
Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
yeah maybe some people but this is not a legitimate barrier to being in great physical shape.
well i mean, people can usually find the time to do *something*. but it's just one more expectation on a plate that's full of a crapton of other expectations along with a crapton of work (for a lot of women).
i just wish there were more expectations to make things more equal all around, that's all, so women would have more free time. that's what it comes down to, imo0 -
You clearly never set foot in my house growing up. My mother is the exact opposite. I grew up in chaos. Her best friend and her daughter (who is my best friend) and my father's sister whom I'm very close to and lived with for a while all live in chaos. They are not dirty people, but they aren't NEAT people, either. My mother always says my neat-freakiness is me rebelling against her.Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
I'm a Capricorn. That's why I clean so much. I need order in my life, whether it's a clean house or decorations just right. I need a very specific environment to function on any level. It isn't society. It's who I am. When i move to a new place, my boxes are unpacked and everything put away within the first week because I just can't stand things being cluttered. And if I asked my SO to do more, he would without argument. But I can't even stand how he stacks dishes in the dishrack. He doesn't do it "right" (i.e. MY way).
But thank you for the psycho-analysis of someone you don't know anything about. :flowerforyou:
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.
whether or not you grew up in a society that does this to women (re: cleanliness obligations) depends on how old you are, what country you were raised in, what generation your mother was part of, if you had both parents or just one and whether you had a stay at home mom or dad or if they both worked.
your sociology stuff is backdated and cant be handed out like that anymore.
We have unlimited options now and nothing is traditional or standard anymore. You cant make sweeping generalizations across the female half of the species.
You can tell us all about you and your situation and no one can say boo in disagreement. but what things were like for you were probably not the same way for women across the board anymore :flowerforyou:0 -
you must become a productivity ninja.
guys can do it.
so can we!0 -
You clearly never set foot in my house growing up. My mother is the exact opposite. I grew up in chaos. Her best friend and her daughter (who is my best friend) and my father's sister whom I'm very close to and lived with for a while all live in chaos. They are not dirty people, but they aren't NEAT people, either. My mother always says my neat-freakiness is me rebelling against her.Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
I'm a Capricorn. That's why I clean so much. I need order in my life, whether it's a clean house or decorations just right. I need a very specific environment to function on any level. It isn't society. It's who I am. When i move to a new place, my boxes are unpacked and everything put away within the first week because I just can't stand things being cluttered. And if I asked my SO to do more, he would without argument. But I can't even stand how he stacks dishes in the dishrack. He doesn't do it "right" (i.e. MY way).
But thank you for the psycho-analysis of someone you don't know anything about. :flowerforyou:
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.
whether or not you grew up in a society that does this to women (re: cleanliness obligations) depends on how old you are, what country you were raised in, what generation your mother was part of, if you had both parents or just one and whether you had a stay at home mom or dad or if they both worked.
your sociology stuff is backdated and cant be handed out like that anymore.
We have unlimited options now and nothing is traditional or standard anymore. You cant make sweeping generalizations across the female half of the species.
You can tell us all about you and your situation and no one can say boo in disagreement. but what things were like for you were probably not the same way for women across the board anymore :flowerforyou:
it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
The Persistence of the Gendered Division of Domestic Labour
Why has the gendered division of domestic labour proved so resistant to change despite the growth in married women’s labour force participation? We develop a game theoretic model of marriage to show that women’s individual levels of relative economic autonomy are not in themselves sufficient to bring about an aggregate shift in the division of domestic labour. Using data for 22 countries from the 1994 International Social Survey Programme, we show that what is required is that there be a greater proportion of economically autonomous women within the society as a whole, together with a sufficiently large proportion of men who, if faced with an economically autonomous woman, would rather participate in domestic tasks than endure marital breakdown. These results suggest that until we see greater gender material equality for the majority of women in a society and an evolution in men’s gender ideology, the gendered division of domestic labour will persist.
http://esr.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/1/43.abstract
Gender Convergence in Domestic Work: Discerning the Effects of Interactional and Institutional Barriers from Large-scale Data
Cross-national trends in paid and unpaid work time over the last 40 years reveal a slow and incomplete convergence of women’s and men’s work patterns. A simplistic extrapolation would indicate a 70—80 year process of gender convergence, with the year 2010 representing an approximate mid-point. However, in conformity with the expectations of gender theory, time use data show that gender segregation in domestic work is quite persistent over time. Women still do the bulk of routine housework and caring for family members while men have increased their contributions disproportionately to non-routine domestic work, suggesting that gender ideologies and the associated ‘doing’ of gender in interaction remain important features of the division of domestic labour. The effects of institutional barriers are also apparent, with differential changes in women’s proportional contribution to routine housework and caring activities related to different national policy clusters.
http://soc.sagepub.com/content/45/2/234.abstract0 -
it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
I don't doubt your figures. What I'm saying is that in a lot of cases women just aren't saying, "help me." And men -- whether it's society or biological differences in the brain -- don't generally (there are exceptions) feel as bothered by clutter as a a lot of women so they don't think to just spontaneously help out. HOWEVER, one thing you left out is that men bear the bigger burden of outdoor work around the house over women.
Men are more likely to be mowing lawns, taking out garbage, painting, doing home repairs, etc. So are women really doing more? It's far less strenuous to run a vacuum than mow a lawn with a push mower or paint a house.
While I do more housework than my SO, when my car breaks, he's the one out in the hot sun fixing it. Or his own or my daughter's (who isn't his child).0 -
Wonder how this would have went if it was a dude that posted a pic and stated the same thing?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
it is not even comparable, dudes are not expected to invest the same amount of time in childrearing; their bodies aren't completely messed with by the invasion of another creature, there is not the same unreasonable expectation to maintain youthful beauty all through life, and the accusation of laziness if that doesn't happen (and men are thought attractive into their later years even if they don't work out), etc etc etc.
it is not problematic because women are "catty", jesus effing.
if a male cover model had a pretty face, though, some men might cut him down by calling him a pretty boy (and taking that where it often goes). if he was more rugged looking and tough, or else just cool, they would want to be more like him.
women are no longer expected to spend most of their time child rearing - and dads are a million times more involved than they were before the 70s and 80s - they are doing their dangedest to do at least half the work and girls are STILL morning about how much work they have to do to be a mom - when being a mom is all they ever wanted in their tiny little world. then they get what they want and its like ermergerd too much work. TOO BAD. This is everything youve been dreaming about since you found someone willing to put a ring on it -_-
It IS problematic because women are catty and we've evolved over the last 500 years in competition with each other. And yes - women do hold their weight differently and deal with different kinds of hormonal effects and yes we can grow a person inside of us - but its not freaking mandatory to have kids. And there's no rule saying you cant be healthy and exercise WHILE youre pregnant and you dont have to wait until maternity leave is over to get in a workout here and there or eat right - especially if youre going to breastfeed.
No im not a mom. No Im not married. No I dont have kids. No i dont think that if i was married with a kid, would i have the right answers - of course not - i know im not perfect.
but i do know that ive been living a very healthy active lifestyle for many years now and that when / if i do end up in a situation with kid(s) in my life - then i will still be active (more active because kids) still be eating healthy (healthier because kids).
because im the kind of person who looks for all the possible ways of making something happen. Im NOT the kind of person that would rather sit around and talk about all the reasons it wouldnt work for me, all the people who wouldnt have success, all the things that could pop up and throw me off course, all the what if's and buts and exceptions that i keep stockpiling to prove that i cant be successful.
and also - regarding those comments yesterday - if Im ever at the beach, building sandcastles with the kids and getting all grimy and someone tells me im creepy for being in a bikini when im playing with my kids on the beach - i would slap them across the face so hard that they'd break through a plateau and hit a mini goal.
Only people who already have something psychologically wrong up there - would accuse a mother of being creepy with her own children, just because she's hanging out with them and wearing a two piece.
The fact that youve had children does not revoke your right to being sexy or provocative. If anything, you're allowed to be sexier than regular girls.
If you put as much effort into taking action and working with the plan you found that does work for you - as the amount of effort that people put in here - spending hours talking about everything that doesnt work (facepalm - in what universe is that productive) or wont work or why it wont work - yall would all be able to look back at this ad and mental high five yourself for not having excuses either.
People who have legitimate reasons for not being in the best shape they can be - or not being able to work toward it - probably wont be offended by this picture because she obviously wasnt aiming it at people with REASONS. She was aiming it at people who have EXCUSES - and sure enough - just like every time you bring up that word, the ones that get hell bent out of shape are the ones that arent making much progress - if any, who are famous for writing long explanations of why they cant do anything, who are always complaining about not wanting to work out or are always forgiving themselves for a binge and saying its a NEW DAY! (its NOT, by the way, a new day - your body is the same one it was yesterday, with the same binge in your intestines) or who are too afraid to work out where someone might see them giving a frak. They have angry bitter mugshot profile pictures (or flowers, field or a cat) and instead of just walking past something that doesnt motivate them or doesnt apply to them, they pop a squat, sink into a big old lazyboy, grab their keyboard, move their snacks to the side, crack their knuckles and smile to themselves and get ready to shoot down every optimistic person who makes the mistake of walking into this thread and having the nerve to believe in themselves - or WORSE - to be a walking example that it IS possible.
Because its not - and there are a lot of people here on MFP who are only here to keep people from seeing any success. because they arent seeing any.
What's my excuse?
I dont have any. Im kicking tush, Maria. High Five!
Ok so first me:
- I don't have kids
- Until this summer when I got tendinosis in my shoulder and ankle, along with runner's knee & arthritis in both knees, i successfully maintained a 50-lb loss for over 2 years; i've gained 10 back & am working on that now
Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
That problem is FAR FROM OVER
I don't know if women do 80% of the domestic labor but I'm pretty sure they do 100% of the self congratulating about it. We get it. It's insanely hard to move a vacuum across a floor or throw clothes in a washing machine. Me dumb man. No figure out how to do them things.
Nobody said it's hard. But yeah I'd rather be doing other things lol0 -
it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
I don't doubt your figures. What I'm saying is that in a lot of cases women just aren't saying, "help me." And men -- whether it's society or biological differences in the brain -- don't generally (there are exceptions) feel as bothered by clutter as a a lot of women so they don't think to just spontaneously help out. HOWEVER, one thing you left out is that men bear the bigger burden of outdoor work around the house over women.
Men are more likely to be mowing lawns, taking out garbage, painting, doing home repairs, etc. So are women really doing more? It's far less strenuous to run a vacuum than mow a lawn with a push mower or paint a house.
While I do more housework than my SO, when my car breaks, he's the one out in the hot sun fixing it. Or his own or my daughter's (who isn't his child).
Well, at least one study suggests that the reason women aren't saying "help me" is because they intuit the marriage will break down if they don't keep dusting..
There are other studies showing that marriage generally benefits male health indicators (because they get emotional support, don't have to do all this work -- counted in HOURS, not individual things -- women just do *more*) while women tend to be more stressed by marriage because they're doing all this stuff. I can dig those up sometime but have to be off.
Mind you, it's true that men actually die earlier, because of the nature of the stress they deal with. But, women live those extra years with poor health. all this is "tend to", ok, generalizations..
I'm glad the division of labour in your home works for you, that you have found it to be complementary.0 -
How different is it from:I think the issue is mostly that she is shaming other mom's... by saying "Whats your excuse?"
or
or
Because it is a women who had kids the message is some form of shaming?
This thread of pics with NO excuses0 -
You clearly never set foot in my house growing up. My mother is the exact opposite. I grew up in chaos. Her best friend and her daughter (who is my best friend) and my father's sister whom I'm very close to and lived with for a while all live in chaos. They are not dirty people, but they aren't NEAT people, either. My mother always says my neat-freakiness is me rebelling against her.Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
I'm a Capricorn. That's why I clean so much. I need order in my life, whether it's a clean house or decorations just right. I need a very specific environment to function on any level. It isn't society. It's who I am. When i move to a new place, my boxes are unpacked and everything put away within the first week because I just can't stand things being cluttered. And if I asked my SO to do more, he would without argument. But I can't even stand how he stacks dishes in the dishrack. He doesn't do it "right" (i.e. MY way).
But thank you for the psycho-analysis of someone you don't know anything about. :flowerforyou:
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.
whether or not you grew up in a society that does this to women (re: cleanliness obligations) depends on how old you are, what country you were raised in, what generation your mother was part of, if you had both parents or just one and whether you had a stay at home mom or dad or if they both worked.
your sociology stuff is backdated and cant be handed out like that anymore.
We have unlimited options now and nothing is traditional or standard anymore. You cant make sweeping generalizations across the female half of the species.
You can tell us all about you and your situation and no one can say boo in disagreement. but what things were like for you were probably not the same way for women across the board anymore :flowerforyou:
it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
The Persistence of the Gendered Division of Domestic Labour
Why has the gendered division of domestic labour proved so resistant to change despite the growth in married women’s labour force participation? We develop a game theoretic model of marriage to show that women’s individual levels of relative economic autonomy are not in themselves sufficient to bring about an aggregate shift in the division of domestic labour. Using data for 22 countries from the 1994 International Social Survey Programme, we show that what is required is that there be a greater proportion of economically autonomous women within the society as a whole, together with a sufficiently large proportion of men who, if faced with an economically autonomous woman, would rather participate in domestic tasks than endure marital breakdown. These results suggest that until we see greater gender material equality for the majority of women in a society and an evolution in men’s gender ideology, the gendered division of domestic labour will persist.
http://esr.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/1/43.abstract
Gender Convergence in Domestic Work: Discerning the Effects of Interactional and Institutional Barriers from Large-scale Data
Cross-national trends in paid and unpaid work time over the last 40 years reveal a slow and incomplete convergence of women’s and men’s work patterns. A simplistic extrapolation would indicate a 70—80 year process of gender convergence, with the year 2010 representing an approximate mid-point. However, in conformity with the expectations of gender theory, time use data show that gender segregation in domestic work is quite persistent over time. Women still do the bulk of routine housework and caring for family members while men have increased their contributions disproportionately to non-routine domestic work, suggesting that gender ideologies and the associated ‘doing’ of gender in interaction remain important features of the division of domestic labour. The effects of institutional barriers are also apparent, with differential changes in women’s proportional contribution to routine housework and caring activities related to different national policy clusters.
http://soc.sagepub.com/content/45/2/234.abstract
its also not the same. It may not be over - but we arent where we were in the beginning. we have made progress. i cant believe im still having to explain to women that not only have we indeed made progress, but that its okay to celebrate that. we dont have to end every freaking fudging sentence with a ....BUT WE'RE STILL ON THE SHT END OF THE STICK.
As individuals, we are not. As individuals, we are now free.
Free to exercise our butts off in tiny workout clothes in front of our kids and stand up to the naysayers and say oh yeah? what's your excuse for not being awesome, when we finally have the right to be.0 -
If I were in a marriage where the man was going to leave because I asked him for a little help cleaning, I would show him the door myself.it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
I don't doubt your figures. What I'm saying is that in a lot of cases women just aren't saying, "help me." And men -- whether it's society or biological differences in the brain -- don't generally (there are exceptions) feel as bothered by clutter as a a lot of women so they don't think to just spontaneously help out. HOWEVER, one thing you left out is that men bear the bigger burden of outdoor work around the house over women.
Men are more likely to be mowing lawns, taking out garbage, painting, doing home repairs, etc. So are women really doing more? It's far less strenuous to run a vacuum than mow a lawn with a push mower or paint a house.
While I do more housework than my SO, when my car breaks, he's the one out in the hot sun fixing it. Or his own or my daughter's (who isn't his child).
Well, at least one study suggests that the reason women aren't saying "help me" is because they intuit the marriage will break down if they don't keep dusting..
There are other studies showing that marriage generally benefits male health indicators (because they get emotional support, don't have to do all this work -- counted in HOURS, not individual things -- women just do *more*) while women tend to be more stressed by marriage because they're doing all this stuff. I can dig those up sometime but have to be off.
Mind you, it's true that men actually die earlier, because of the nature of the stress they deal with. But, women live those extra years with poor health. all this is "tend to", ok, generalizations..
I'm glad the division of labour in your home works for you, that you have found it to be complementary.
Women need to learn that having "a man" isn't the ultimate goal of life and it's better to be alone than with a complete jerk.
My relationship has had its share of problems. but I've always known he was a good guy. If women are inuiting something like that, either they're idiots or they chose very poorly in life partners. And I still don't feel sorry for them. And I also will point out that even doing 80% of the housework doesn't take up THAT much time unless you're super cleaning your house every day.0 -
You clearly never set foot in my house growing up. My mother is the exact opposite. I grew up in chaos. Her best friend and her daughter (who is my best friend) and my father's sister whom I'm very close to and lived with for a while all live in chaos. They are not dirty people, but they aren't NEAT people, either. My mother always says my neat-freakiness is me rebelling against her.Sorry, but, though some men today are better than their fathers probably were about this, the research overwhelmingly says that women are STIIIIIIIIILL having to run things at home. Some estimates have it at ~80% of the domestic labour (when, both partners are working).
I do the vast majority of the housework in my home. Not because my SO is unable or unwilling to do it, but because I'm a it of a control freak and also like things a little neater than he does. He's content to run the vacuum once a week while I like to do it three or four times a week.
I wash dishes by hand every night and do 90% of the laundry. Yet, I find time to lounge in front of the TV, exercise, write and read along with a full-time job and a pretty active social life.
If women are doing 80% of the housework in their homes and they aren't happy about it, they need to discuss it with their SOs and change it. It really i sthat simple.
Don't make yourself a martyr and then ask for my sympathy.
LOL ok I'm also single at the moment, as it happens. This is not about me personally, at all. (and I'm no martyr btw)
One reason you might be a control freak about it, is you've been socialized to clean -- to notice dust, etc; to know what to do with it; to feel uncomfortable in its presence, maybe worry how others might judge you if they saw it... Many, many women have been raised this way; many, many men have not. The discrepancy doesn't stop in one generation, I'm afraid.
I'm a Capricorn. That's why I clean so much. I need order in my life, whether it's a clean house or decorations just right. I need a very specific environment to function on any level. It isn't society. It's who I am. When i move to a new place, my boxes are unpacked and everything put away within the first week because I just can't stand things being cluttered. And if I asked my SO to do more, he would without argument. But I can't even stand how he stacks dishes in the dishrack. He doesn't do it "right" (i.e. MY way).
But thank you for the psycho-analysis of someone you don't know anything about. :flowerforyou:
i didn't psychoanalyze you, i said "one reason you MIGHT". because you are 1) a woman who 2) grew up in a society that does this to women, *generally*. that is sociological.
whether or not you grew up in a society that does this to women (re: cleanliness obligations) depends on how old you are, what country you were raised in, what generation your mother was part of, if you had both parents or just one and whether you had a stay at home mom or dad or if they both worked.
your sociology stuff is backdated and cant be handed out like that anymore.
We have unlimited options now and nothing is traditional or standard anymore. You cant make sweeping generalizations across the female half of the species.
You can tell us all about you and your situation and no one can say boo in disagreement. but what things were like for you were probably not the same way for women across the board anymore :flowerforyou:
it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
The Persistence of the Gendered Division of Domestic Labour
Why has the gendered division of domestic labour proved so resistant to change despite the growth in married women’s labour force participation? We develop a game theoretic model of marriage to show that women’s individual levels of relative economic autonomy are not in themselves sufficient to bring about an aggregate shift in the division of domestic labour. Using data for 22 countries from the 1994 International Social Survey Programme, we show that what is required is that there be a greater proportion of economically autonomous women within the society as a whole, together with a sufficiently large proportion of men who, if faced with an economically autonomous woman, would rather participate in domestic tasks than endure marital breakdown. These results suggest that until we see greater gender material equality for the majority of women in a society and an evolution in men’s gender ideology, the gendered division of domestic labour will persist.
http://esr.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/1/43.abstract
Gender Convergence in Domestic Work: Discerning the Effects of Interactional and Institutional Barriers from Large-scale Data
Cross-national trends in paid and unpaid work time over the last 40 years reveal a slow and incomplete convergence of women’s and men’s work patterns. A simplistic extrapolation would indicate a 70—80 year process of gender convergence, with the year 2010 representing an approximate mid-point. However, in conformity with the expectations of gender theory, time use data show that gender segregation in domestic work is quite persistent over time. Women still do the bulk of routine housework and caring for family members while men have increased their contributions disproportionately to non-routine domestic work, suggesting that gender ideologies and the associated ‘doing’ of gender in interaction remain important features of the division of domestic labour. The effects of institutional barriers are also apparent, with differential changes in women’s proportional contribution to routine housework and caring activities related to different national policy clusters.
http://soc.sagepub.com/content/45/2/234.abstract
its also not the same. It may not be over - but we arent where we were in the beginning. we have made progress. i cant believe im still having to explain to women that not only have we indeed made progress, but that its okay to celebrate that. we dont have to end every freaking fudging sentence with a ....BUT WE'RE STILL ON THE SHT END OF THE STICK.
As individuals, we are not. As individuals, we are now free.
Free to exercise our butts off in tiny workout clothes in front of our kids and stand up to the naysayers and say oh yeah? what's your excuse for not being awesome, when we finally have the right to be.
I'm definitely glad I'm living today and not in my grandmother's time, that's for sure!
Things are improving, but I don't feel like it's a good idea to just chill out about it (backlash, anyone? how cool is it to say you're a feminist these days?)0 -
it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
I don't doubt your figures. What I'm saying is that in a lot of cases women just aren't saying, "help me." And men -- whether it's society or biological differences in the brain -- don't generally (there are exceptions) feel as bothered by clutter as a a lot of women so they don't think to just spontaneously help out. HOWEVER, one thing you left out is that men bear the bigger burden of outdoor work around the house over women.
Men are more likely to be mowing lawns, taking out garbage, painting, doing home repairs, etc. So are women really doing more? It's far less strenuous to run a vacuum than mow a lawn with a push mower or paint a house.
While I do more housework than my SO, when my car breaks, he's the one out in the hot sun fixing it. Or his own or my daughter's (who isn't his child).
Well, at least one study suggests that the reason women aren't saying "help me" is because they intuit the marriage will break down if they don't keep dusting..
There are other studies showing that marriage generally benefits male health indicators (because they get emotional support, don't have to do all this work -- counted in HOURS, not individual things -- women just do *more*) while women tend to be more stressed by marriage because they're doing all this stuff. I can dig those up sometime but have to be off.
Mind you, it's true that men actually die earlier, because of the nature of the stress they deal with. But, women live those extra years with poor health. all this is "tend to", ok, generalizations..
I'm glad the division of labour in your home works for you, that you have found it to be complementary.
Wait.....so I can stop helping around the house and she won't do anything about it?
I've been doing this all wrong.0 -
Because it is a women who had kids the message is some form of shaming?
Yup. Just the nature of women and mothers. Motherhood is a competition, ya know?
Actually, I just think it goes back to the pressure and guilt of motherhood. You don't just have to keep your kids alive, you have to try really hard not to **** them up. How many of us blame our parents for our lack of activity, bad eating habits, poor relationship skills, etc? It's a lot of pressure, and it comes with a lot of guilt (I don't know why fathers don't feel this as much).
A lot of women see this image and suddenly there's MORE guilt and MORE pressure. I'm not offended, and it doesn't make me feel bad but I can definitely understand why it makes other mother's feel like that. And that's what the original post was asking, "Why is this controversial?". That's the answer. It upsets mothers because they feel like it's adding pressure. While a lot of people might not understand these feelings or feel the same way, they still exist. The solution is of course NOT to attack this lady but to look inside and either use it as motivation to take more time for yourself or to not let it effect you at all. Realize that you are an awesome mom/woman/person even if you don't look like that and move on.0 -
If I were in a marriage where the man was going to leave because I asked him for a little help cleaning, I would show him the door myself.it's not backdated actually, some of these studies are from the past five years, in north america, with women who were reproductive aged in that time frame. i know everyone would like for this crap to be over but it's not
I don't doubt your figures. What I'm saying is that in a lot of cases women just aren't saying, "help me." And men -- whether it's society or biological differences in the brain -- don't generally (there are exceptions) feel as bothered by clutter as a a lot of women so they don't think to just spontaneously help out. HOWEVER, one thing you left out is that men bear the bigger burden of outdoor work around the house over women.
Men are more likely to be mowing lawns, taking out garbage, painting, doing home repairs, etc. So are women really doing more? It's far less strenuous to run a vacuum than mow a lawn with a push mower or paint a house.
While I do more housework than my SO, when my car breaks, he's the one out in the hot sun fixing it. Or his own or my daughter's (who isn't his child).
Well, at least one study suggests that the reason women aren't saying "help me" is because they intuit the marriage will break down if they don't keep dusting..
There are other studies showing that marriage generally benefits male health indicators (because they get emotional support, don't have to do all this work -- counted in HOURS, not individual things -- women just do *more*) while women tend to be more stressed by marriage because they're doing all this stuff. I can dig those up sometime but have to be off.
Mind you, it's true that men actually die earlier, because of the nature of the stress they deal with. But, women live those extra years with poor health. all this is "tend to", ok, generalizations..
I'm glad the division of labour in your home works for you, that you have found it to be complementary.
Women need to learn that having "a man" isn't the ultimate goal of life and it's better to be alone than with a complete jerk.
My relationship has had its share of problems. but I've always known he was a good guy. If women are inuiting something like that, either they're idiots or they chose very poorly in life partners. And I still don't feel sorry for them. And I also will point out that even doing 80% of the housework doesn't take up THAT much time unless you're super cleaning your house every day.
well i don't know exactly why it is that women persist in these gender-determined roles, other than that they have been socialized into gender and that stuff sticks. fear of marital breakdown was one possibility suggested. anyway it's not just a few dumb women, it's a lot of all kinds of women0 -
Well, at least one study suggests that the reason women aren't saying "help me" is because they intuit the marriage will break down if they don't keep dusting..
who on earth are these people? this is surely not my generation.There are other studies showing that marriage generally benefits male health indicators (because they get emotional support, don't have to do all this work -- counted in HOURS, not individual things -- women just do *more*) while women tend to be more stressed by marriage because they're doing all this stuff. I can dig those up sometime but have to be off.
who on earth are these people? I dont know anyone in my age group who is married or in a live-in relationship who is more stressed because she has to do more. Perhaps this is because I live somewhere non-traditional, but i have lots of traditional friends and they all seem to split everything up just fine. from bills to housework.Mind you, it's true that men actually die earlier, because of the nature of the stress they deal with. But, women live those extra years with poor health. all this is "tend to", ok, generalizations..
I dont think its fair to talk about how long men and women in our generation live and what our quality of life is like in our golden years - as this is also the first generation where more women are choosing not to get married and have kids than any other generation previously. We dont start having kids at 12 anymore. We dont have twisted up Silent Hill type medical care, we dont spend our days socially isolated, we dont give up all our dreams and goals once we get married...
There is no way to predict how people born in the 70s-90s are going to be different from previous generations when they hit retirement.
This is heading off topic. House cleaning is not a legitimate reason for not being able to work toward being in the best physical health you can be in.0
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