Is chivalry really dead? :(

DamePiglet · December 2013

Just pushing this along towards the roll so it drops of my posts list. Nothing to see here. Move along.

helping you.

focknfree · December 2013

LMAO!!!

contingencyplan · December 2013

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The whole point I was addressing/attacking (whether or not you choose to call it that) are the gender specific aspects of what people refer to as chivalry. In your eyes, does it say something negative about someone if the way they act toward strangers is in no way gender specific, even if it is overall common courtesy? Does it say he lacks "chivalry" because he doesn't go that extra mile beyond his already good social behavior just for women? THAT is my problem with "chivalry." The prospect that women are somehow more deserving than fellow men. Why can't we all just treat each other equally? That's how I see it, anyway. There is nothing I would do for a woman I did not personally know that I would not also do for a man I do not personally know. What does that say about me, based on your theories?

To me it says your probably a good man getting to hung up on the definition of equality. My wife and I are equals, but that does not mean we are equal in all things. I am far physically stronger than she is and better in math, however she has far better organizational skills and her memory is far better than mine. Clearly all of those things are important and her contribution is no less than mine to our home. But we are not the same and gender plays a part in that and I see no reason not to celebrate those differences.

How is that "celebrating" differences? Forgive me but I tend to take words at their literal meanings and I don't see how doing things for a woman that you wouldn't do for other men constitutes a celebration. Also, different does not mean better. But doing things for them you wouldn't do for others does say "better."

Mrsallypants · December 2013

Chivalry is benevolent sexism as academics refer to it. Some women feel entitled to this treatment from men, and some men are too myopic to see the big picture.

The benevolent sexism seems to extend to places such as family court, criminal courts and gender sentence disparities, and even the male only selective service system in the United States.

Chivalrous practitioners seem to look at things in a dichotomous way such as infantalizing women and denying their agency while overemphasizing men's responsibility and agency (attribution error).

hughtwalker · December 2013

seem to whom?

contingencyplan · December 2013

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Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

I was raised with it. I just questioned it, is all. The person I am has very little to do with how my parents *tried* to raise me and it bothers me that people talk about it's how you were "raised." It has simply always been my nature to question the logic behind things, even the things my parents tried to teach me, and even as a child. And if I could not see logic behind it, I didn't go along with it. Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the record, I am this way with all traditions. If I see no logic behind it, no justification that goes beyond "well, it's just what people do" then I don't do it. No logic, no understanding.

That would make you undateable for me.
Just being honest.

See? It IS a good test.

Test for what? And questioning things for logic is undateable? Okay, if that's your thing, that's cool, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not it makes me undateable.

hughtwalker · December 2013

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Behave decently and protect those more vulnerable than yourself - regardless of station, class nor sex. Just what is your problem with this concept?

If I have my arms full of parcels I am quite happy to have a woman open a door for me - why? I'd even welcome it.

- and at 64 I might even accept the offer of a seat on a crowded bus

That is the way it should be. And that's not chivalry. It's common courtesy.

That's all chivalry ever was - only nowadays you don't need a horse

hughtwalker · December 2013

Chivalry is benevolent sexism as academics refer to it. Some women feel entitled to this treatment from men, and some men are too myopic to see the big picture.

The benevolent sexism seems to extend to places such as family court, criminal courts and gender sentence disparities, and even the male only selective service system in the United States.

Chivalrous practitioners seem to look at things in a dichotomous way such as infantalizing women and denying their agency while overemphasizing men's responsibility and agency (attribution error).

can you put this through Google Translate for me, please - I'd love to see it in English

DamePiglet · December 2013

show previous quotes

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

I was raised with it. I just questioned it, is all. The person I am has very little to do with how my parents *tried* to raise me and it bothers me that people talk about it's how you were "raised." It has simply always been my nature to question the logic behind things, even the things my parents tried to teach me, and even as a child. And if I could not see logic behind it, I didn't go along with it. Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the record, I am this way with all traditions. If I see no logic behind it, no justification that goes beyond "well, it's just what people do" then I don't do it. No logic, no understanding.

That would make you undateable for me.
Just being honest.

See? It IS a good test.

Test for what? And questioning things for logic is undateable? Okay, if that's your thing, that's cool, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not it makes me undateable.

right. and that's okay. I wasn't saying it to be unkind to you. I was being perfectly honest.

While I do think questioning "authority" isn't a bad thing, it can be taken too far. This is one case (IMO)

What I meant is that it is useful as a test for compatibility.

ArroganceInStep · December 2013

I am sooo gonna get some back lash on this but I don't really care. It is my opinion. Not saying it is fact or should be everyone's opinion but it is what i believe to be true as a Christian woman. I believe a woman's place is in the home. I believe she should be taking care of the home and raising the children while the man works. I believe that things spiraled downward and children got out of hand when the mother's left to home to work. I don't believe a woman is equal to a man. I don't believe a woman can do anything a man can do nor do I believe they should be in a man's position. There were far less problems with society when women knew their place and did their job. Sorry if this offends any of these women on a power trip out there. I don't mean be let your man mistreat you but don't complain about Chivalry being dead when when it was the women that wanted to be treated equal to men. You all just ruined it for the ones that know our place as women.

dafuq?

JenniBaby85 · December 2013

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Chivalry is benevolent sexism as academics refer to it. Some women feel entitled to this treatment from men, and some men are too myopic to see the big picture.

The benevolent sexism seems to extend to places such as family court, criminal courts and gender sentence disparities, and even the male only selective service system in the United States.

Chivalrous practitioners seem to look at things in a dichotomous way such as infantalizing women and denying their agency while overemphasizing men's responsibility and agency (attribution error).

can you put this through Google Translate for me, please - I'd love to see it in English

Translated - I don't want to be "chivalrous" or to "take care" of a woman, and so I'm using a lot of big words to defend my stance. :drinker:

contingencyplan · December 2013

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Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

I was raised with it. I just questioned it, is all. The person I am has very little to do with how my parents *tried* to raise me and it bothers me that people talk about it's how you were "raised." It has simply always been my nature to question the logic behind things, even the things my parents tried to teach me, and even as a child. And if I could not see logic behind it, I didn't go along with it. Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the record, I am this way with all traditions. If I see no logic behind it, no justification that goes beyond "well, it's just what people do" then I don't do it. No logic, no understanding.

That would make you undateable for me.
Just being honest.

See? It IS a good test.

Test for what? And questioning things for logic is undateable? Okay, if that's your thing, that's cool, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not it makes me undateable.

right. and that's okay. I wasn't saying it to be unkind to you. I was being perfectly honest.

While I do think questioning "authority" isn't a bad thing, it can be taken too far. This is one case (IMO)

What I meant is that it is useful as a test for compatibility.

I wouldn't call it questioning authority, just rather simply being born with a very inquisitive nature. For as long as I can remember, I've needed to know the "why" behind everything I did. And if I couldn't find a valid "why" then it made no sense to me from a logical point of view to go along with it. Even traditions dating back hundreds of years, or things that my parents tried to teach me. I simply need to know the "why."

Mr_Knight · December 2013

Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the same reason it's Captain Kirk and not Captain Spock.

Humans have an intuitive understanding that logic, while it has a place, is also limited. With that understanding comes an intuitive mistrust of those who seek to cast everything as "logic".

That said, the value of tradition is also completely logical - the vast majority of the time, we are more powerful together, in a cohesive group, moving in a wrong direction, than we are separately, moving in the right direction.

On an individual basis, culture and tradition matter because they significantly reduce the uncertainty of human behaviour, which makes it easier for us to read each other and act accordingly/appropriately.

ArroganceInStep · December 2013

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I am sooo gonna get some back lash on this but I don't really care. It is my opinion. Not saying it is fact or should be everyone's opinion but it is what i believe to be true as a Christian woman. I believe a woman's place is in the home. I believe she should be taking care of the home and raising the children while the man works. I believe that things spiraled downward and children got out of hand when the mother's left to home to work. I don't believe a woman is equal to a man. I don't believe a woman can do anything a man can do nor do I believe they should be in a man's position. There were far less problems with society when women knew their place and did their job. Sorry if this offends any of these women on a power trip out there. I don't mean be let your man mistreat you but don't complain about Chivalry being dead when when it was the women that wanted to be treated equal to men. You all just ruined it for the ones that know our place as women.

dafuq?

This is horribly offensive. I'm a man, I don't want to work.

BobOki · December 2013

I suppose this is NOT the time to mention that the chivalry that is being talked about here is the romanticized version which came pretty much after all the wars were over and were mostly fictionalized from stories about King Arthur and the like. Actual chivalry was a pure warriors code telling Knights how they should behave, honor, and how to handle challenges. It was not till LATE middle ages that the "courty love" phase started to occur. So that said, this entire thread exists to continue to hold up a fictitious moral code that never really existed... much like Disney Princesses.

wheird · December 2013

Chivalry is benevolent sexism as academics refer to it. Some women feel entitled to this treatment from men, and some men are too myopic to see the big picture.

The benevolent sexism seems to extend to places such as family court, criminal courts and gender sentence disparities, and even the male only selective service system in the United States.

Chivalrous practitioners seem to look at things in a dichotomous way such as infantalizing women and denying their agency while overemphasizing men's responsibility and agency (attribution error).

Hating women again?

DamePiglet · December 2013

show previous quotes

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

I was raised with it. I just questioned it, is all. The person I am has very little to do with how my parents *tried* to raise me and it bothers me that people talk about it's how you were "raised." It has simply always been my nature to question the logic behind things, even the things my parents tried to teach me, and even as a child. And if I could not see logic behind it, I didn't go along with it. Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the record, I am this way with all traditions. If I see no logic behind it, no justification that goes beyond "well, it's just what people do" then I don't do it. No logic, no understanding.

That would make you undateable for me.
Just being honest.

See? It IS a good test.

Test for what? And questioning things for logic is undateable? Okay, if that's your thing, that's cool, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not it makes me undateable.

right. and that's okay. I wasn't saying it to be unkind to you. I was being perfectly honest.

While I do think questioning "authority" isn't a bad thing, it can be taken too far. This is one case (IMO)

What I meant is that it is useful as a test for compatibility.

I wouldn't call it questioning authority, just rather simply being born with a very inquisitive nature. For as long as I can remember, I've needed to know the "why" behind everything I did. And if I couldn't find a valid "why" then it made no sense to me from a logical point of view to go along with it. Even traditions dating back hundreds of years, or things that my parents tried to teach me. I simply need to know the "why."

I posted waaaayyyy up in the thread my opinion about chivalry and how it works and what it stands for in my culture.

That would be my answer to your "why." I'm not sure you will be satisfied with it, but it's what I got.

Mr_Knight · December 2013

Back in the real world, "courtly love" was a fancy justification for infidelity.

delicious_cocktail · December 2013

show previous quotes

Chivalry is benevolent sexism as academics refer to it. Some women feel entitled to this treatment from men, and some men are too myopic to see the big picture.

The benevolent sexism seems to extend to places such as family court, criminal courts and gender sentence disparities, and even the male only selective service system in the United States.

Chivalrous practitioners seem to look at things in a dichotomous way such as infantalizing women and denying their agency while overemphasizing men's responsibility and agency (attribution error).

can you put this through Google Translate for me, please - I'd love to see it in English

Translated - I don't want to be "chivalrous" or to "take care" of a woman, and so I'm using a lot of big words to defend my stance. :drinker:

Really? That's a surprisingly disrespectful comment.

Assuming that people actually do need help to understand that text:

Chivalry is a way in which men and women are treated differently (sexism) but in a way that is typically socially accepted as "good" (benevolent.) Some women think they are entitled to this unequal treatment. Some men are too short-sighted to grasp the implications of this treatment.

The inequality [extends to places such as family court, criminal courts and gender sentence disparities, and even the] military draft in the United States.

People who support chivalry treat women like children and in action indicate that men are superior.

hughtwalker · December 2013

I'd recommend watching some kick-*kitten* Chinese movies on Netflix to re-orientate the perspective on poor-little-wifey-women.

DamePiglet · December 2013

For the same reason it's Captain Kirk and not Captain Spock.

HOLY CRAP...

STELLAR.
Seriously.
NAILED IT!

DamePiglet · December 2013

Back in the real world, "courtly love" was a fancy justification for infidelity.

oh wait... you said "courtLY"... my bad.

ryry_ · December 2013

Men and women can be equals and still be different. We are not mathematical equations.

ETA: LoL at the "You can vote now, get your own freaking door" mentality

gabbygirl78 · December 2013

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I am sooo gonna get some back lash on this but I don't really care. It is my opinion. Not saying it is fact or should be everyone's opinion but it is what i believe to be true as a Christian woman. I believe a woman's place is in the home. I believe she should be taking care of the home and raising the children while the man works. I believe that things spiraled downward and children got out of hand when the mother's left to home to work. I don't believe a woman is equal to a man. I don't believe a woman can do anything a man can do nor do I believe they should be in a man's position. There were far less problems with society when women knew their place and did their job. Sorry if this offends any of these women on a power trip out there. I don't mean be let your man mistreat you but don't complain about Chivalry being dead when when it was the women that wanted to be treated equal to men. You all just ruined it for the ones that know our place as women.

dafuq?

This is horribly offensive. I'm a man, I don't want to work.

A lot of men don't want to work these days. They want to stay home and play video games or World of Warcraft while drinking their beer and popping their pills or smoking their pot while the women they mistreat and never appreciate work 2 or more jobs just trying to keep the bills paid and a roof over your head. By all means it is socially accepted to be a sorry piece of crap these days go right ahead and join in. Women went from raising kids and taking care of the home to raising kids the best she can while holding down a couple of full time job, keep the house clean and make sure the hubby has plenty of beer and smokes so he wont have to leave the computer screen except to relieve him self or smack the "old lady" around a little. What ever makes everyone happy. :drinker:

Toblave · December 2013

How is that "celebrating" differences? Forgive me but I tend to take words at their literal meanings and I don't see how doing things for a woman that you wouldn't do for other men constitutes a celebration. Also, different does not mean better. But doing things for them you wouldn't do for others does say "better."

In my mind doing these things does not say "better," it says "different." I think that is the crux of the conversation, it says different things to us. Perhaps it's a generational thing or maybe a different world view.

While most of this I would do for anyone regardless of gender, there are certain things that I will only do for a woman and a few things that I will only do for my wife. I will hold the door for a man who is exiting or entering behind me but I will open the door and step aside for a woman to allow her to enter first (or a man who is trying to catch up to his family). If I'm on a bus and there is an elderly couple, I will gladly give my seat to one of them but I will give the elderly woman the right of first refusal with all else being equal. When at a table at a restaurant, if a woman gets up, I will always rise also but will only do so for a man when meeting to shake his hand or to offer help when he needs it.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll reach agreement on this. At this point I think the discussion becomes a series of circular assertions.

ArroganceInStep · December 2013

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I am sooo gonna get some back lash on this but I don't really care. It is my opinion. Not saying it is fact or should be everyone's opinion but it is what i believe to be true as a Christian woman. I believe a woman's place is in the home. I believe she should be taking care of the home and raising the children while the man works. I believe that things spiraled downward and children got out of hand when the mother's left to home to work. I don't believe a woman is equal to a man. I don't believe a woman can do anything a man can do nor do I believe they should be in a man's position. There were far less problems with society when women knew their place and did their job. Sorry if this offends any of these women on a power trip out there. I don't mean be let your man mistreat you but don't complain about Chivalry being dead when when it was the women that wanted to be treated equal to men. You all just ruined it for the ones that know our place as women.

dafuq?

This is horribly offensive. I'm a man, I don't want to work.

A lot of men don't want to work these days. They want to stay home and play video games or World of Warcraft while drinking their beer and popping their pills or smoking their pot while the women they mistreat and never appreciate work 2 or more jobs just trying to keep the bills paid and a roof over your head. By all means it is socially accepted to be a sorry piece of crap these days go right ahead and join in. Women went from raising kids and taking care of the home to raising kids the best she can while holding down a couple of full time job, keep the house clean and make sure the hubby has plenty of beer and smokes so he wont have to leave the computer screen except to relieve him self or smack the "old lady" around a little. What ever makes everyone happy. :drinker:

That's absurd, she's not worth interrupting my video games over!

Loss4TheWin · December 2013

I suppose this is NOT the time to mention that the chivalry that is being talked about here is the romanticized version which came pretty much after all the wars were over and were mostly fictionalized from stories about King Arthur and the like. Actual chivalry was a pure warriors code telling Knights how they should behave, honor, and how to handle challenges. It was not till LATE middle ages that the "courty love" phase started to occur. So that said, this entire thread exists to continue to hold up a fictitious moral code that never really existed... much like Disney Princesses.

Semantics. Language is fluid and follows its speakers, and definitions change. An Epicure used to refer to someone who followed the philosophy of Epicurus, but over time it's evolved to mean someone with discriminating tastes. What I hear in your post is that you are essentially in here arguing that wine tasters aren't Epicures because they don't adhere to the philosophic principles of Epicurus.

In much the same way, Chivalry used to be a "Knights Code". More recently, the word means courteous behavior, especially (but not limited to) a mans behavior towards a woman. And courteous means more than "please" and "thank you" - its defined as a polished manner and gallantry.

contingencyplan · December 2013

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How is that "celebrating" differences? Forgive me but I tend to take words at their literal meanings and I don't see how doing things for a woman that you wouldn't do for other men constitutes a celebration. Also, different does not mean better. But doing things for them you wouldn't do for others does say "better."

In my mind doing these things does not say "better," it says "different." I think that is the crux of the conversation, it says different things to us. Perhaps it's a generational thing or maybe a different world view.

While most of this I would do for anyone regardless of gender, there are certain things that I will only do for a woman and a few things that I will only do for my wife. I will hold the door for a man who is exiting or entering behind me but I will open the door and step aside for a woman to allow her to enter first (or a man who is trying to catch up to his family). If I'm on a bus and there is an elderly couple, I will gladly give my seat to one of them but I will give the elderly woman the right of first refusal with all else being equal. When at a table at a restaurant, if a woman gets up, I will always rise also but will only do so for a man when meeting to shake his hand or to offer help when he needs it.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll reach agreement on this. At this point I think the discussion becomes a series of circular assertions.

Can I ask the point of the whole "rising" when a woman enters thing? I'm just trying to understands its origins and possible symbolisms.

BobOki · December 2013

A lot of men don't want to work these days. They want to stay home and play video games or World of Warcraft while drinking their beer and popping their pills or smoking their pot while the women they mistreat and never appreciate work 2 or more jobs just trying to keep the bills paid and a roof over your head. By all means it is socially accepted to be a sorry piece of crap these days go right ahead and join in. Women went from raising kids and taking care of the home to raising kids the best she can while holding down a couple of full time job, keep the house clean and make sure the hubby has plenty of beer and smokes so he wont have to leave the computer screen except to relieve him self or smack the "old lady" around a little. What ever makes everyone happy. :drinker:

Well it is nice to see women are still allowed to be horribly sexist, while I men so much as defend the notion of woman's equality we are yelled at. Way to take woman's suffrage back a few decades! I also love the way you added every negative stereotype you could think of for a stay home male figure, wonder what would be said if we did the same about the female gold digger stay home leech?

Rage_Phish · December 2013

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I am sooo gonna get some back lash on this but I don't really care. It is my opinion. Not saying it is fact or should be everyone's opinion but it is what i believe to be true as a Christian woman. I believe a woman's place is in the home. I believe she should be taking care of the home and raising the children while the man works. I believe that things spiraled downward and children got out of hand when the mother's left to home to work. I don't believe a woman is equal to a man. I don't believe a woman can do anything a man can do nor do I believe they should be in a man's position. There were far less problems with society when women knew their place and did their job. Sorry if this offends any of these women on a power trip out there. I don't mean be let your man mistreat you but don't complain about Chivalry being dead when when it was the women that wanted to be treated equal to men. You all just ruined it for the ones that know our place as women.

dafuq?

This is horribly offensive. I'm a man, I don't want to work.

A lot of men don't want to work these days. They want to stay home and play video games or World of Warcraft while drinking their beer and popping their pills or smoking their pot while the women they mistreat and never appreciate work 2 or more jobs just trying to keep the bills paid and a roof over your head. By all means it is socially accepted to be a sorry piece of crap these days go right ahead and join in. Women went from raising kids and taking care of the home to raising kids the best she can while holding down a couple of full time job, keep the house clean and make sure the hubby has plenty of beer and smokes so he wont have to leave the computer screen except to relieve him self or smack the "old lady" around a little. What ever makes everyone happy. :drinker:

this is embarassing for you...but i doubt you even realize it

Is chivalry really dead? :(

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