Paleo vs. Clean eating?

It's not "supposed" hypocrisy. If you say "I do not eat processed foods!" and then run down a list of the processed foods you eat, you are without question being a hypocrite.

"From what you've seen" is not all there is to see. I've seen plenty of the opposite. I've seen people practicing a diet of moderation be told to enjoy the cancer they're going to get.

I've seen people who claim that people should be kind and not mock others call people obtuse and not very bright.

Mostly what I've seen is lots of people like an argument, they just get mad when they lose.

Or the issue could just be in the definition of "processed". Some may consider that to refer to a certain level of refinement or to include unnatural additives, preservatives, etc. Others could be more literal and consider any type of washing or cooking to equal process.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "you're a hypocrite" bandwagon until you're really sure that you're definitions and assumptions are the same.

I was actually incredibly generous in my definition of processed. I didn't include the oranges and dates, even though they are a lot more processed than everyone likes to think.

If you don't think powdered cocoa, half & half creamer, and yogurt are processed foods...well I don't know what to tell you. I know "clean eaters" like to make up their own definitions to suit their purposes... but there's no world where yogurt (much less non fat, greek yogurt) is some kind of naturally occuring food source. All of it is man made, packaged, and sold. Fitting every definiton of processed.

I have this theory that there ARE worlds where this is true. And that MFP actually spans across these dimensions...

Which is why we debate:

- Whether a calorie is just a calorie
- What water consists of
- How much muscle weighs relative to fat
- Etc.

It's not "supposed" hypocrisy. If you say "I do not eat processed foods!" and then run down a list of the processed foods you eat, you are without question being a hypocrite.

"From what you've seen" is not all there is to see. I've seen plenty of the opposite. I've seen people practicing a diet of moderation be told to enjoy the cancer they're going to get.

I've seen people who claim that people should be kind and not mock others call people obtuse and not very bright.

Mostly what I've seen is lots of people like an argument, they just get mad when they lose.

Or the issue could just be in the definition of "processed". Some may consider that to refer to a certain level of refinement or to include unnatural additives, preservatives, etc. Others could be more literal and consider any type of washing or cooking to equal process.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "you're a hypocrite" bandwagon until you're really sure that you're definitions and assumptions are the same.

I was actually incredibly generous in my definition of processed. I didn't include the oranges and dates, even though they are a lot more processed than everyone likes to think.

If you don't think powdered cocoa, half & half creamer, and yogurt are processed foods...well I don't know what to tell you. I know "clean eaters" like to make up their own definitions to suit their purposes... but there's no world where yogurt (much less non fat, greek yogurt) is some kind of naturally occuring food source. All of it is man made, packaged, and sold. Fitting every definiton of processed.

I have this theory that there ARE worlds where this is true. And that MFP actually spans across these dimensions...

Which is why we debate:

- Whether a calorie is just a calorie
- What water consists of
- How much muscle weighs relative to fat
- Etc.

-And whether or not you can be addicted to refined sugar, but not all other sugar...

ETA: And that gif is tripping me out. Must be all the caffiene I've had today.

Maybe we can do a one paragraph summary of what all "The Regulars" think about paleo and just copy/paste it into each new thread?

Lindsey: I had undiagnosed issues for years and going Paleo both solved them and helped my doctors diagnose my issues.

Varda: The health claims are hyperbolic, the argument that we should eat what our ancestors ate doesn't take into account human physiology, evolution or what we know about our ancestors, and it seems unnecessarily restrictive, but it's not fundamentally unhealthy if you aren't using it to demonize food.

Neandermagon: http://cavepeopleandstuff.wordpress.com/tag/paleo-diet-humor/

Really? You don't think you would enter the thread trying to defend it, like you always do?

The second part is a matter of opinion which I doubt we will ever see eye to eye.

Really? You don't think you would enter the thread trying to defend it, like you always do?

The second part is a matter of opinion which I doubt we will ever see eye to eye.

No, I wouldn't because I realize it would be (1) a waste of time and (2) unlikely to help anyone that really wanted to learn about Paleo/Primal (since people interested in that wouldn't go to a bashing thread). It's really hard for me to believe that some of you are real people.

This, coming from someone with no profile pic and no profile info.

Really? You don't think you would enter the thread trying to defend it, like you always do?

The second part is a matter of opinion which I doubt we will ever see eye to eye.

No, I wouldn't because I realize it would be (1) a waste of time and (2) unlikely to help anyone that really wanted to learn about Paleo/Primal (since people interested in that wouldn't go to a bashing thread). It's really hard for me to believe that some of you are real people.

This, coming from someone with no profile pic and no profile info.

For the debate of restriction vs. no restriction, I personally find that the decision turns on what the benefits you receive from the restriction -- whether that result makes it worth it to you. If you can achieve the same goal in a different manner, you may opt to ditch the restriction. But if the restriction gives you what you want, you often will stick with it due to that positive feedback loop.

For example, when I went Paleo/Primal, I was shocked by how much better I felt. Just shocked. So, it was easy for me to keep eating that way because I just felt so much better than I did before -- my whole concept of "normal" for me shifted dramatically. And when I go back to eating grains, I go back to feeling poorly. So, that's an easy restriction for me to adopt into a lifestyle.

I now know I have an underlying condition that probably contributed to that or was the sole cause as I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis -- an autoimmune thyroid disorder. Research isn't definitive, but some thyroid specialists believe that gluten or other items in grains set it off -- just as it is suspected to do for other autoimmune disorders like Celiac, certain rheumatoid arthritis, etc.

Are there other things I avoid that maybe I don't need to avoid? Maybe. I started to add back in dairy and found I had no problems with it, so that's when I shifted from stricter Paleo to the more permissive Primal. I don't generally eat legumes, but they aren't generally things I miss. The only exception is peanut butter. But I like almonds, cashews and macadamia nuts just as much if not more, so the substitution is an easy on for me.

I had a similar experience when I started to cut back the carbs, and then later learned I was insulin resistant. And a low carb diet is specifically recommended for that disorder. Again, the diagnosis came long after the diet change (and, man, do I wish I'd known about these issues 10+ years ago -- would have saved me a LOT of grief).

So, my guess for a lot of people that love Paleo/Primal, keto, low carb, etc. lifestyles it's because there is a real reason they react so much better to those diets -- some reasons that they know about, some that they don't and some that they may never know about (i.e. disorders/sensitivities that are too mild for a formal diagnosis or whose symptoms largely clear up with the different diet). After all, I was told for YEARS everything was fine by my doctors. My fiance feels similarly. He doesn't have any issues that we know of but he says he just feels a ton better eating Primally, especially without the grains. He doesn't know what it is specifically that does it -- but the combo works great for him and he saw increases in his sports performance which was the big deal (he comes from some serious genetic freaks in that department).

Others without any sensitivities or underlying conditions try the diets and go "what's the big deal?" because they feel the same on them as they did on their previous diet. So, to those people that have the luck to be able to tolerate different diets rather well, the restriction seems silly, faulty or just plain not worth it.

But, at least for me, I never would have realized that a change in my diet could lead to feeling SO SO much better. And, it is what ultimately pushed me to push my doctors on figuring out what was up with me as for the previous 6-8 years, they told me everything was "fine" when it really wasn't and I'm finally getting the treatment that is needed and on the best diet for my situation. I think you'll find a lot of similar stories on Paleo/Primal websites -- people just feeling much better or having previous issues just clear up or get remarkably better, and they never really know why necessarily.

Here's the thing, Lindsey: you have health issues that are alleviated when you eat this way. It's certainly a good choice for you. I will always think the name "paleo" or "primal" is dumb because its not an accurate name. I describe your diet as "beneficial for Lindsey (or "insert name here") because that's what it REALLY is.

However, OP is intrigued at the thought of different eating styles, yet she doesn't actually have any dietary / health issues ( at least none she disclosed). Most of us are actually saying the same thing you did: it's probably not worth it for her.
In her case, it probably won't be sustainable... It will end up just being a "fad diet". And there's where the discord enters... No one really wants people to suffer through fad diets. Again, even though its not a fad for you, other people wear it like a trendy accessory.

Dame Piglet (great moniker btw) -- the one point of my story that I think you're missing is that I didn't know I had any issues for years. Yes, the later diagnosis definitely connected the dots for me as to why it worked for me. But, before that diagnosis, I just know that I felt a lot better -- that it was the only thing that I'd seen a real definitive difference in fatigue in particular. I don't believe my story is singular in that regard.

From what I know of people that tried the diet, is that an amazing number of them reported things similar to me -- that they felt a LOT better on it, clearer thinking, more energy, digestive issues cleared up or went away, headaches they used to be plagued by vanished or greatly reduced, sleep a lot better, etc. I do believe a lot of these people, like myself, probably have some underlying issue that the diet alleviated. But, like myself, I bet you a lot of them are undiagnosed or are told by their doctors that it's stress (such a common answer for doctors when no "disorder" is readily apparent). Or simply it's a food sensitivity that they were unaware of until they weren't eating it a lot whatever was causing them issues. I certainly had a huge shift in what was "normal" for me.

Accordingly, I believe that's why so many people that have such experiences praise it so highly. In many ways, it did "cure" them. Was is the only "cure"? Maybe, maybe not. Do they feel a lot better on it? Yes. Does that encourage them to continue it? Yes. If it doesn't work, then they simply stop. It's really nothing that rises to the level of "suffering" that you reference. It's meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables, good fats, nuts, dairy (if it works for you) -- at least for the Primal I follow. There are a lot of choices -- very little "suffering" (#firstworldproblems).

So, you can call it a fad all you want, but I've read a lot of the nutritional science behind many of the concepts, and many of them are reasonable from a biological, biochemical and physiological perspective. Definitive, no. Reasonable, yes. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions -- and that's the nature of so much of science.

What I still fail to understand is where people like you or others on this board care about the semantics of the label, the anthropological accuracy (that's not really what a real Caveman ate!), or other peripheral non-sense. It's not a movement that you're a part of, so why do you care? Why not just keep your eyes on your own paper? If you disagree with the science of the nutritional precepts, fine. State so and enter a lively debate about them. But, most of the anit-Paleo/Primal assertions I've seen are conclusory statements, mockery, ridicule or baseless assertions. Or frankly, self-righteous puffery, which is terribly ironic coming from the very same people complaining about insufferable pretention coming from the Paleo/Primal people. Pot or kettle?

Also where are these people that wear their diets like trendy accessories? I live in Northern California, a place that is pretty focused on food and healthy living, and I've literally never met them. I've met plenty of other types that are plenty obnoxious, but none that brag about their diets -- whether Paleo, IIFYM or otherwise. Do you find them hanging out at the juice bar in the gym or something?

It's almost as if Paleo/Primal did such people some ancestral wrong or ran over their puppy -- that's the level of irrational hostility I see from many (not aimed at you in particular) on this board. It really feels very similar to religious or political zealots who invest themselves in trying to tear down all other ideologies in order to give themselves greater comfort for their own beliefs (or doubt therein). Just what I've observed...

Really? You don't think you would enter the thread trying to defend it, like you always do?

The second part is a matter of opinion which I doubt we will ever see eye to eye.

No, I wouldn't because I realize it would be (1) a waste of time and (2) unlikely to help anyone that really wanted to learn about Paleo/Primal (since people interested in that wouldn't go to a bashing thread). It's really hard for me to believe that some of you are real people.

This, coming from someone with no profile pic and no profile info.

She has, however, made a statement that she has a degree from a top research university.

In biology nonetheless, though I think we're ranked #4 overall biology but still have the top spot in both chemistry and molecular biology (shared in both I think).

and I am a french model ….bonjur…!

No. In fact my TSH levels have been steady for years, with no need for increased medication. There is nothing I restrict from my diet. Immune disorders are tricky because they wax and wane and the reasons for that have remained elusive in most cases.

If I went Paleo and it helped, what would be my response in your opinion? That my thyroid would start producing more hormone? Is that what happened in your case?

I guess I just see a lot of these issues as useless judging. Not the type of judging relative to moral issues, which I think is valuable, but the useless judging as to lifestyle preferences. The type from people that serves no purpose other than to be divisive. I don't see it as respectful, nor helpful, and oftentimes just downright emotionally dishonest (i.e. not from a place of honest desire to help, but out of misplaced self-righteousness and occasionally downright bullying by small, petty people). You're free to do it, of course, but I just disagree with it and see no value in it. But, I guess if it makes you feel better, there's at least that.

I have been open that my interest is less about the specific diet and more so about the belief that gets argued that semantics don't matter.

You mentioned being some form of a scientist. You know why it matters. It matters for the same reason that research uses control groups, tries to assess variables, has very strict guidelines to meet to prove causation and not correlation, and is expected to be peer reviewed and challenged and able to be re-proven.

I would agree with you 100% if this was a Paleo group. I won't take my curiosity about this 80/20 business and semantics there because it's uninvited, unwanted, unwarranted. But everyone here has the right to ask questions or even issue challenges when it's talked about in the general area.

You can't complain about people criticizing or questioning something because it's just "a lifestyle" while simultaneously promoting the benefits, to the point of telling people they should try it to see if they have health issues they don't know about. I don't care about really anyone's lifestyle, until it hurts someone or they start telling others to try it. Once they do that, they've invited questions and essentially, requests for evidence. Like I know you would want if I made negative statements about Paleo.

I'm not attacking you or upset by this. We obviously disagree, but that's part of discussion. Know that I agree that people (on either side) should not be belittling, and I agree that people who want to argue the Paleo diets should stay out of those groups. But as long as you stay here and keep talking to me, I'm going to respond when I see it. This discussion is really interesting to me, and it must be to you, because you stick around, too.