If cutting cal= losing,y do people want ketosis?
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It's just a different approach to dieting, the idea that is you remove/ limit carbohydrates, your body will shift from glucose metabolism to fatty acid oxidation (fat burning) as a means to provide energy for the body as well as reducing insulin sensitivity leading to reduced fat storage and increased fat loss.
Ketosis is the state of having high levels of ketone bodies in your blood. Ketone bodies are by-products of fatty acid metabolism, which would be an indication that your body as switched over to fatty acid metabolism over glucose metabolism. Nutritional ketosis is the state that is achieved through following ketogenic diets. This state, according to the theory behind the carbohydrate restricting diets (mentioned above), is the ideal state for fat loss. . This is why many desire to be in nutritional ketosis though some people following these diets argue that ketosis is not the ideal goal of low carb diets but rather a side-effect of being in an ideal fat-burning state and thus do not believe ketosis is required specifically for fat loss.
Calorie counting is based on pure energy requirements in terms of energy spent vs energy consumed, disregarding the effects of different macronutrients on fat loss. Your body will remain in glucose metabolism on this diet (most likely). Your energetic requirements are calculated on your basal metabolic rate (BMR), Exercise, ext, calories being the measurement of energy here. You specifically consume less energy in your diet than your total energy requirements, leading to your body compensating by making up the energy difference by burning fatty acids in your adipose tissue, hence the fat loss. This would be probably done by a series of signalling systems and hormone regulation as a compensatory mechanism for a restricted calorie diet.
This is a big simplification but a basic theory of the biochemistry behind it. There's a pretty big divide and discussion between which theory is right and the science is still far from conclusive. I'll say though that personally I've lost weight on both diets. I've lost weight a little faster on ketogenic diets but I find it to be very difficult and physically and mentally exhausting to follow whereas calorie control is much more enjoyable but a little slower. Take all my advice with a pinch of salt but I would say long-term calorie controlled diet and healthy balanced whole foods (with leeway for some junk food, meals out just for convenience) is best just for general life enjoyment. It's a personal choice though and I wish you (and everyone else) the best with everything you decide. I hope I might be able to clear a few things up for you and answer your question.
Whoo, nice, glad I could help out.0 -
This is quite INCORRECT.
What happens if you use a little bit of glycogen? Your body makes more glycogen. And where does it pull the calories to do that from once you hit a deficit? Your fat stores. It's kind of constantly processing calories in and out of muscles and fat as you eat and move.
Your body does not and CAN NOT replenish glycogen stores from fat. It's impossible. Gluconeogenesis does NOT convert fat to glucose. It will convert amino acids from proteins (which is why VLC diets are moderate-protein) but NOT from fat.
It's very possible to maintain a state of almost continual glycogen depletion even with very little exercise on a ketogenic diet. That's a simple biochemical truth.0 -
You are right.
Dear God.
All of the amino acids present in proteins, excepting leucine and lysine, can be degraded to TCA cycle intermediates as discussed in the metabolism of amino acids. This allows the carbon skeletons of the amino acids to be converted to those in oxaloacetate and subsequently into pyruvate. The pyruvate thus formed can be utilized by the gluconeogenic pathway. When glycogen stores are depleted, in muscle during exertion and liver during fasting, catabolism of muscle proteins to amino acids contributes the major source of carbon for maintenance of blood glucose levels. Of all the amino acids utilized for gluconeogenesis, glutamine is the most important as this amino acid is critical for glucose production by the kidneys and small intestine.
There was a few weeks of my life when I had all that diagrammed out in my hallway. THAT's what that means.0 -
Your cut/paste from the internet aside, what people need to understand is that in a glycogen-depleted state where we continue to consume very-low-carbohydrate intake - our body obtains energy from fatty-acid beta-oxidization and does NOT replenish glycogen stores, except when carbohydrate intake is sufficient to do so.You are right.
Dear God.
All of the amino acids present in proteins, excepting leucine and lysine, can be degraded to TCA cycle intermediates as discussed in the metabolism of amino acids. This allows the carbon skeletons of the amino acids to be converted to those in oxaloacetate and subsequently into pyruvate. The pyruvate thus formed can be utilized by the gluconeogenic pathway. When glycogen stores are depleted, in muscle during exertion and liver during fasting, catabolism of muscle proteins to amino acids contributes the major source of carbon for maintenance of blood glucose levels. Of all the amino acids utilized for gluconeogenesis, glutamine is the most important as this amino acid is critical for glucose production by the kidneys and small intestine.
There was a few weeks of my life when I had all that diagrammed out in my hallway. THAT's what that means.
Why people want ketosis?
1) better glycemic control than any other dietary plan,
2) reduction in bodyfat WHILE being muscle/protein- sparing.
3) improvement in triglyceride levels and cholesterol profile compared to low-fat diets.
Anyone is free to try it if they don't have medical reasons NOT to - some use a cyclic ketogenic diet (especially popular in bodybuilding circles), some use it to 'jump start' weight loss, very few of us need it for life. Many adopt it and lose weight and get glycemic control to the point where they can re-introduce carbohydrate back into their diets quite successfully.0 -
Your cut/paste from the internet aside, what people need to understand is that in a glycogen-depleted state where we continue to consume very-low-carbohydrate intake - our body obtains energy from fatty-acid beta-oxidization and does NOT replenish glycogen stores, except when carbohydrate intake is sufficient to do so.You are right.
Dear God.
All of the amino acids present in proteins, excepting leucine and lysine, can be degraded to TCA cycle intermediates as discussed in the metabolism of amino acids. This allows the carbon skeletons of the amino acids to be converted to those in oxaloacetate and subsequently into pyruvate. The pyruvate thus formed can be utilized by the gluconeogenic pathway. When glycogen stores are depleted, in muscle during exertion and liver during fasting, catabolism of muscle proteins to amino acids contributes the major source of carbon for maintenance of blood glucose levels. Of all the amino acids utilized for gluconeogenesis, glutamine is the most important as this amino acid is critical for glucose production by the kidneys and small intestine.
There was a few weeks of my life when I had all that diagrammed out in my hallway. THAT's what that means.
Why people want ketosis?
1) better glycemic control than any other dietary plan,
2) reduction in bodyfat WHILE being muscle/protein- sparing.
3) improvement in triglyceride levels and cholesterol profile compared to low-fat diets.
Anyone is free to try it if they don't have medical reasons NOT to - some use a cyclic ketogenic diet (especially popular in bodybuilding circles), some use it to 'jump start' weight loss, very few of us need it for life. Many adopt it and lose weight and get glycemic control to the point where they can re-introduce carbohydrate back into their diets quite successfully.
any calorie deficit method - keto, low carb, calorie counting, etc- will lead to a loss in body fat ...so I am not sure what that is listed as "why people want ketosis".....0 -
In a caloric deficit the average dieter will lose both fat and lean-tissue. The ketogenic diet is shown to be muscle-sparing, and both anecdotal evidence and scientific research supports that.Why people want ketosis?
1) better glycemic control than any other dietary plan,
2) reduction in bodyfat WHILE being muscle/protein- sparing.
3) improvement in triglyceride levels and cholesterol profile compared to low-fat diets.
Anyone is free to try it if they don't have medical reasons NOT to - some use a cyclic ketogenic diet (especially popular in bodybuilding circles), some use it to 'jump start' weight loss, very few of us need it for life. Many adopt it and lose weight and get glycemic control to the point where they can re-introduce carbohydrate back into their diets quite successfully.
any calorie deficit method - keto, low carb, calorie counting, etc- will lead to a loss in body fat ...so I am not sure what that is listed as "why people want ketosis".....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=119588841
On the CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet)
http://www.simplyshredded.com/research-review-an-in-depth-look-into-carbing-up-on-the-cyclical-ketogenic-diet-with-lyle-mcdonald.html0 -
In a caloric deficit the average dieter will lose both fat and lean-tissue. The ketogenic diet is shown to be muscle-sparing, and both anecdotal evidence and scientific research supports that.Why people want ketosis?
1) better glycemic control than any other dietary plan,
2) reduction in bodyfat WHILE being muscle/protein- sparing.
3) improvement in triglyceride levels and cholesterol profile compared to low-fat diets.
Anyone is free to try it if they don't have medical reasons NOT to - some use a cyclic ketogenic diet (especially popular in bodybuilding circles), some use it to 'jump start' weight loss, very few of us need it for life. Many adopt it and lose weight and get glycemic control to the point where they can re-introduce carbohydrate back into their diets quite successfully.
any calorie deficit method - keto, low carb, calorie counting, etc- will lead to a loss in body fat ...so I am not sure what that is listed as "why people want ketosis".....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=119588841
On the CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet)
http://www.simplyshredded.com/research-review-an-in-depth-look-into-carbing-up-on-the-cyclical-ketogenic-diet-with-lyle-mcdonald.html
the first study that you posted - pmc1373635 - is a review of other studies, and most of the studies that are cited state that more study is needed, because they cannot draw significant conclusion from the studies.
From paragraph two of "review of studies"
"Changes in lean body mass, as estimated from DEXA and urinary creatinine, were not significant over the term of treatment. Bioelectrical impedance measurements reflected a greater loss of lean body mass, but changes in total body fluid and electrolyte content, as a result of dietary ketosis, may complicate these measurements."
so I am still not sold that Keto is superior to any other method with respect to fat loss or muscle preservation ...0 -
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It's basic biochemistry. You can argue with it, but it's simply true.so I am still not sold that Keto is superior to any other method with respect to fat loss or muscle preservation ...
When not ketogenic, technically every diet that involves a caloric deficit is, by nature, catabolic - meaning it will make you lose muscle. This is a fact. There are several reasons - anabolic hormones are reduced, any aerobic exercise in a deficit will burn a little fat, but WILL have a catabolic effect ...
The issue is when NOT keto-adapted, the body and brain needs glucose for fuel as it's preferred source. Thus gluconeogenesis causes us to convert protein into glucose. If we're at a deficit - the body still needs it's glucose ... if it doesn't get enough from carbs/protein (which it won't, because you're on a deficit) it catabolizes lean tissue. That's a fact.
Ketosis is different because when keto-adapted the brain prefers ketones over glucose, and the body utilizes fatty-acid beta-oxidization for cellular respiration. As such the body doesn't have to break down protein for energy, instead utilizing fat reserves.
You may not believe it, but to say that ignores the science and basic biochemistry - and you've shown no evidence to suggest it's otherwise, except your opinion, have you?0 -
It's basic biochemistry. You can argue with it, but it's simply true.so I am still not sold that Keto is superior to any other method with respect to fat loss or muscle preservation ...
When not ketogenic, technically every diet that involves a caloric deficit is, by nature, catabolic - meaning it will make you lose muscle. This is a fact. There are several reasons - anabolic hormones are reduced, any aerobic exercise in a deficit will burn a little fat, but WILL have a catabolic effect ...
The issue is when NOT keto-adapted, the body and brain needs glucose for fuel as it's preferred source. Thus gluconeogenesis causes us to convert protein into glucose. If we're at a deficit - the body still needs it's glucose ... if it doesn't get enough from carbs/protein (which it won't, because you're on a deficit) it catabolizes lean tissue. That's a fact.
Ketosis is different because when keto-adapted the brain prefers ketones over glucose, and the body utilizes fatty-acid beta-oxidization for cellular respiration. As such the body doesn't have to break down protein for energy, instead utilizing fat reserves.
You may not believe it, but to say that ignores the science and basic biochemistry - and you've shown no evidence to suggest it's otherwise, except your opinion, have you?
you are the one making the claim, so the burden is on you to prove your point.
The study you posted was not conclusive, and was just a review of other studies that, again, were inconclusive.
So no, I do not believe that keto is superior to any other form of fat burning. Keto is just a method to create a calorie deficit, just like counting calories, low carb, IF, etc….0 -
you may want to revive the following study.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-7-17.pdf
They found that LBM did not change between those on ketogenic diet and those that were on regular diet; both groups worked out twice a week.
conclusion:
although this study was not designed to fully elucidate the mechanisms behind the observed body composition changes, the study has shown that resistance exercise performed twice weekly in overweight women on a low carbohydrate ketogenic may reduce body fat without significantly changing LBM, while resistance exercise on a regular diet may increase LBM in without significantly affecting fat mass. Fasting blood lipids do not seem to be negatively influenced by the combination of a low carbohydrate diet and resistance exercise.0 -
What I'm saying isn't that it's "superior" for fat-burning (some research concludes it is, some concludes it's similar to other dietary methods) - what I'm stating is that it's inherently protein/muscle-sparing - which you argued against.you are the one making the claim, so the burden is on you to prove your point.
The study you posted was not conclusive, and was just a review of other studies that, again, were inconclusive.
So no, I do not believe that keto is superior to any other form of fat burning. Keto is just a method to create a calorie deficit, just like counting calories, low carb, IF, etc….
I've at least posted science and research papers. You've posted - your opinion. I'm assuming you've also never heard and don't believe in a "protein-sparing" modified fast? Which is basically a low-calorie ketogenic diet. It also works, and is protein-sparing. It's been known to be effective at weight-loss AND protein-sparing since the early 70's.
Google "ketogenic diet muscle-sparing" and find anything that disproves it. You'll only find evidence - both scientific and anecdotal that back it up. You'll find NOTHING scientific that discounts the fact.
The biochemistry alone speaks for itself. If you won't take the time to make any effort into educating yourself on the protein-sparing nature of ketosis ... well, I can't convince you of ANYTHING if you are determined to remain ignorant on the subject, can I?
Here's a few more sources/articles, etc. if you change your mind:
http://charm.cs.uiuc.edu/users/jyelon/lowcarb.med/topic2.html
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/9
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
http://www.musclemag.com/nutrition-supplements/the-ketogenic-diet-for-bodybuilders/#.UzTMVqhdUaA
http://ketomax.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/keep-your-lean-muscle-the-protein-sparing-effect-of-ketosis/0 -
Yes, a ketogenic diet for fat-loss is protein-sparing. Which is EXACTLY what I've stated. And what the research universally supports....conclusion:
"Resistance exercise in combination with a ketogenic diet may reduce body fat without significantly changing LBM"
And, if you look further at the study you'll see the ketogenic group was eating only 1438 calories per day vs. 1684 for the non-keto group.
As such, the keto-dieters lost FAT and maintained muscle. The non-keto dieters gained small amounts of lean mass, but stayed just as fat. Which would most people joining MFP prefer?0 -
Your diet is also protein sparing if you include sufficient carbohydrates, if you wanted to eat that way instead of very low carb to induce ketosis.0
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Yes, a ketogenic diet for fat-loss is protein-sparing. Which is EXACTLY what I've stated. And what the research universally supports....conclusion:
"Resistance exercise in combination with a ketogenic diet may reduce body fat without significantly changing LBM"
And, if you look further at the study you'll see the ketogenic group was eating only 1438 calories per day vs. 1684 for the non-keto group.
As such, the keto-dieters lost FAT and maintained muscle. The non-keto dieters gained small amounts of lean mass, but stayed just as fat. Which would most people joining MFP prefer?
you just said previously that Keto is superior to maintaining muscle and losing fat ….this study shows that is not the case …My argument is simply that whatever method you use to create a deficit is going to result in fat loss and no method is superior to the other.
ETA - correction ..you said it preserves lean muscle…all I am saying is that anyone that adhere to macros, eats in a deficit, and gets moderate exercise will have similar results…keto is not superior to the those methods, and vice versa….0 -
This is also true depending upon intake - a constant supply of glucose in the bloodstream means there's no need for synthesis via gluconeogenesis, and no catabolism of protein.Your diet is also protein sparing if you include sufficient carbohydrates, if you wanted to eat that way instead of very low carb to induce ketosis.
However, for a non-keto dieter at a caloric deficit, cellular respiration must be fueled by glucose - and it's generally going to include lean tissue - since the dieter is not keto-adapted.
This is one of the reasons a CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet) is getting very popular in bodybuilding circles - you get the best of both worlds. Ketogenic muscle-sparing fat-loss plus the energy to maintain intense workouts. http://www.simplyshredded.com/research-review-an-in-depth-look-into-carbing-up-on-the-cyclical-ketogenic-diet-with-lyle-mcdonald.html
I don't care what ANY ketogenic dieter says - very high intensity exercise MUST incorporate a certain amount of dietary CHO to sustain it. Anaerobic exercise for more than a few moments is just not normally fueled-well by a keto-adapted individual. Aerobic is fueled very well, but NOT anaerobic.0 -
Thanks Albertabeefy for your comments.0
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I said "it does help individuals burn more bodyfat (instead of bodyfat and lean-tissue)"you just said previously that Keto is superior to maintaining muscle and losing fat ….
No, the study shows it IS the case. Those on the calorie-reduced ketogenic diet lost fat while maintaining muscle. Those eating the normal but calorie-SURPLUS diet stayed as fat, but gained a little lean muscle.this study shows that is not the case …My argument is simply that whatever method you use to create a deficit is going to result in fat loss and no method is superior to the other.
How is this ANYTHING other than what I've said? No offense, but you seem confused.
There we go, thank you.ETA - correction ..you said it preserves lean muscle…
OK, now the burden of proof shifts to you, because basic biochemistry says otherwise. If your body prefers glucose, it's NOT in a protein-sparing state while in a deficit. If it prefers ketones, it IS in a protein-sparing state. Please prove otherwise.all I am saying is that anyone that adhere to macros, eats in a deficit, and gets moderate exercise will have similar results…keto is not superior to the those methods, and vice versa….
Quick edit - I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not one of those 'keto is best for everyone, woop!' zealots ... keto has it's place and it's not for everyone, but it's a scientific fact it's protein-sparing.0 -
Heres my 10 cents..
I love Keto and it works for me. No other way has helped me like this before. Everyone is different, you have to trial everything to see what works for you.
I personally eat very high protein, low carb, moderate fat. It seems to work for me I also drink about 3-4 litres a day and if the mood takes me, I'll go for a walk every now and then. I dont exercise because its not something I enjoy so I've found a way of eating that helps me loose weight I do have quite a physical job so I guess that will help! 0 -
Deek.0
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