Paleo.

giving simplistic nostrums like "calories in--calories out" does nothing to help anyone to curb the problem long term.

Actually, it does.

It is the very basis of what ANYONE needs to lose weight.

The fact that people try and claim they are special fairies who it doesn't apply to is much more of a problem, I would suggest.

While it is true that anyone can restrict calories and lose WEIGHT in the short term (you'll note that I SAID "long term"). But non-OCD individuals find calorie-restrictive diets tedious. That is why the weight-regain figures are so miserable. Calorie-restriction is ultimately not very effective for most people in terms of PERMANENT weight loss. In the end, WHAT you eat is easily as important as HOW MUCH you eat. I come here to share what has been effective for me and others on a long-term basis. I actually do not follow a strongly Paleo diet but I do eliminate wheat and added sugar (as the least painful/healthiest way to control blood glucose--which is a large part of controlling tendencies toward obesity).

so people that count calories are OCD, really?

Oh lawd here we go again ..so I can eat 500 calories of "quality" food, be over maintenance level, and still lose weight?

No, I did not say that. I easily stay within my calorie limit by employing food choices (and have for three years and counting). When I allow myself to eat whatever I like within my "no added sugar-no wheat" parameters, I find under-eating to be the biggest danger and that would be counter-productive in the longer term because it would cut lean body mass.

back tracking now?

you said that non-ocd individual find calorie counting tedious; hence, the implication is that anyone who counts calories and does not find it tedious is OCD ….

fixed the typo….

I was more or less joking on that assertion. Nevertheless, maintaining one's weight while calorie-counting IS a tedious affair. And further, it doesn't work because it is extremely difficult to be that precise. Eating just 100 calories more than what you need per day (and that is easily within measurement error) will just as easily put 70 pounds on you within 10 years. Or you can yo-yo up and down during that ten years--bleh. I have found what works for me.

How would anyone gain that much weight, even if it were just 25 pounds in three years without noticing it ? I maintained my 110 pounds ( for someone under 5 feet within the high normal range ) all my adult life by sometimes eating normal, sometimes eating a bit more ( on special occasions ) and then making up for it by eating less, or eating lighter. Losing and gaining within a 5-10 pound parameter is pretty much normal for all normal weight people and is not considered yo-yo-ing....it's just the normal way things balance out.
I wish I had stopped and eaten 100 calories less and I had not gained 80 pounds over the last eleven years ( not counting the last year when I lost 50 of them )...but personal reasons kept me from doing so. And btw: yes, I noticed that I gained weight....I just did not care at the time.

They WOULD notice and then many of them would get on the yo-yo dieting treadmill. I've been there and done it all. Now I maintain my weight effortlessly (in fact, I will probably lose another 5-7 pounds this year)--all without "dieting". I count calories only to ensure that I eat enough calories. When one eats nutrient-dense food, one is satisfied with many fewer calories.

you just told Ndj that it's difficult to stay under goal because your goal is so low due to your age, etc. but here you're saying that it's difficult to eat enough nutrient dense food to make your goal.

okay.

*sigh* I found it difficult to stay under my calorie goal on LOW-CALORIE diets--I was hungry and miserable all the time. Now, it is effortless. I make no attempt to "diet". I merely eat the foods that are right for me and I slowly lose (very slowly now that I am close to my goal weight). I assume that I will reach some level of homeostasis eventually.

oh and final note, I find it amusing that your diary is private yet you are the one arguing for "quality of calories"….what are you trying to hide?

Testify.

It's a recurring theme for those who like to preach the "right" foods for everyone else.

You and your cohorts are those who preach the mantra of "calories in-calories out". I have been on many, many calorie restricted diets--they do not work LONG TERM. Look at the miserable statistics of regain. I have found what works for me and I am merely trying to share it with others in the hope that it will help them too. Peace.

news flash - if you are losing long term then you are following calories in vs calories out ...

news flash - I well know that. But how I achieve it makes all the difference. The components of the diet are very important for me to achieve my health goals. Period.

so you agree with the mantra of calories in vs calories out then? That would make you one of my "cohorts"...whoever they are...

No--I object to the reductionism represented by that phrase. I repeat what I said earlier: obesity is a complex disease with a constellation of likely causes (the most important among them would be a diet that encourages high blood glucose such as a high carbohydrate, low fat diet). My brother has Type II diabetes. When it was diagnosed, his doctor put him on a very low fat diet and ignored the large amount of carbohydrate he was eating. My brother got quite thin, BUT his diabetes GOT WORSE. He is now insulin dependent. All because the medical establishment, at the time, believed that obesity CAUSES diabetes (and some still do believe that). The emerging truth is that a diet containing a high percentage of carbohydrate, in the absence of a great deal of exercise (my brother is also arthritic)--especially in the form of added sugar and a lot of "healthy whole grains" (especially wheat)--causes diabetes AND obesity.

giving simplistic nostrums like "calories in--calories out" does nothing to help anyone to curb the problem long term.

Actually, it does.

It is the very basis of what ANYONE needs to lose weight.

The fact that people try and claim they are special fairies who it doesn't apply to is much more of a problem, I would suggest.

While it is true that anyone can restrict calories and lose WEIGHT in the short term (you'll note that I SAID "long term"). But non-OCD individuals find calorie-restrictive diets tedious. That is why the weight-regain figures are so miserable. Calorie-restriction is ultimately not very effective for most people in terms of PERMANENT weight loss. In the end, WHAT you eat is easily as important as HOW MUCH you eat. I come here to share what has been effective for me and others on a long-term basis. I actually do not follow a strongly Paleo diet but I do eliminate wheat and added sugar (as the least painful/healthiest way to control blood glucose--which is a large part of controlling tendencies toward obesity).

so people that count calories are OCD, really?

Oh lawd here we go again ..so I can eat 500 calories of "quality" food, be over maintenance level, and still lose weight?

No, I did not say that. I easily stay within my calorie limit by employing food choices (and have for three years and counting). When I allow myself to eat whatever I like within my "no added sugar-no wheat" parameters, I find under-eating to be the biggest danger and that would be counter-productive in the longer term because it would cut lean body mass.

back tracking now?

you said that non-ocd individual find calorie counting tedious; hence, the implication is that anyone who counts calories and does not find it tedious is OCD ….

fixed the typo….

I was more or less joking on that assertion. Nevertheless, maintaining one's weight while calorie-counting IS a tedious affair. And further, it doesn't work because it is extremely difficult to be that precise. Eating just 100 calories more than what you need per day (and that is easily within measurement error) will just as easily put 70 pounds on you within 10 years. Or you can yo-yo up and down during that ten years--bleh. I have found what works for me.

How would anyone gain that much weight, even if it were just 25 pounds in three years without noticing it ? I maintained my 110 pounds ( for someone under 5 feet within the high normal range ) all my adult life by sometimes eating normal, sometimes eating a bit more ( on special occasions ) and then making up for it by eating less, or eating lighter. Losing and gaining within a 5-10 pound parameter is pretty much normal for all normal weight people and is not considered yo-yo-ing....it's just the normal way things balance out.
I wish I had stopped and eaten 100 calories less and I had not gained 80 pounds over the last eleven years ( not counting the last year when I lost 50 of them )...but personal reasons kept me from doing so. And btw: yes, I noticed that I gained weight....I just did not care at the time.

They WOULD notice and then many of them would get on the yo-yo dieting treadmill. I've been there and done it all. Now I maintain my weight effortlessly (in fact, I will probably lose another 5-7 pounds this year)--all without "dieting". I count calories only to ensure that I eat enough calories. When one eats nutrient-dense food, one is satisfied with many fewer calories.

you just told Ndj that it's difficult to stay under goal because your goal is so low due to your age, etc. but here you're saying that it's difficult to eat enough nutrient dense food to make your goal.

okay.

*sigh* I found it difficult to stay under my calorie goal on LOW-CALORIE diets--I was hungry and miserable all the time. Now, it is effortless. I make no attempt to "diet". I merely eat the foods that are right for me and I slowly lose (very slowly now that I am close to my goal weight). I assume that I will reach some level of homeostasis eventually.

I really do not see the difference...you say low calorie diet does not work for you ..but then you agree with calories out vs calories in...but then you say you eat the "right" foods for you ...if you are losing weight, then you are eating lower calories, which would imply a lower calorie diet...

it is like a walking contradiction...

The human body is amazingly complex. It is not a machine. That is your problem, you are assuming a mechanistic model rather than the complex of bio-chemical forces that come together to impact on the problem of obesity.

I really do not see the difference...you say low calorie diet does not work for you ..but then you agree with calories out vs calories in...but then you say you eat the "right" foods for you ...if you are losing weight, then you are eating lower calories, which would imply a lower calorie diet...

it is like a walking contradiction...

I'm pretty sure she's saying that by putting certain restrictions on what she eats, her remaining food choices make it easier to achieve a caloric deficit. And so long as she's not unhappy giving up those foods, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable assertion. You can tell someone to eat a caloric deficit, but if they try to eat an aggressive caloric deficit (as many do) while eating foods that aren't particularly satiating, that can be a pretty miserable experience. You can then say to be less aggressive with your deficit, but then the person may be unhappy with how slowly the weight is coming off. On the other hand, if you force yourself to stick with satiating foods, that aggressive caloric deficit can be easier to achieve. Of course, that comes at the cost of a more restrictive diet but that's worth it to many people.

To put it another way, "calories in/calories out" is the most basic description of how the body functions with respect to fat storage but it's not, in and of itself, particularly helpful for a lot of people when it comes to weight loss. It's equivalent to telling a new lifter wanting to add mass to "pick heavy stuff up and eat lots of food." Yes, that is the basic idea of adding mass, but is that information in and of itself enough for that person to see optimal gains? I don't think so and that's why there are so many training plans out there for new lifters.

Thank you. :flowerforyou:

:grumble: :grumble: :grumble:

I stole this from a member of a group I belong to on Facebook and it cracked me up. This is the best description of Paleo dieting I have ever seen!!!

"Just remember, plant oils are BAD because they're unsaturated fats, except for coconut oil and palm oil because they're saturated and that is GOOD. And butter and beef tallow and lard are animal fats and thus GOOD, don't think about the fact that they're all >51% unsaturated fatty acids. Oh and nuts and seeds are GOOD, except peanuts which are BAD, and the fact that they're all chock-full of unsaturated plant oils that we just told you to avoid is totally irrelevant. Also, grains and legumes are BAD, because they're the mature embryos of plants, which is BAD unless it's a nut or seed (which are also the mature embryos of plants) in which case it's GOOD. Lastly, dairy from cows and goats and sheep and camels and horses is a neolithic invention and thus BAD, unless you're talking about clarified butter in which case it's GOOD and you need to put that **** in your coffee instead of cream, but don't you dare put it on a slice of toast, unless you made that toast from almond flour or coconut flour. Totally clear."

giving simplistic nostrums like "calories in--calories out" does nothing to help anyone to curb the problem long term.

Actually, it does.

It is the very basis of what ANYONE needs to lose weight.

The fact that people try and claim they are special fairies who it doesn't apply to is much more of a problem, I would suggest.

While it is true that anyone can restrict calories and lose WEIGHT in the short term (you'll note that I SAID "long term"). But non-OCD individuals find calorie-restrictive diets tedious. That is why the weight-regain figures are so miserable. Calorie-restriction is ultimately not very effective for most people in terms of PERMANENT weight loss. In the end, WHAT you eat is easily as important as HOW MUCH you eat. I come here to share what has been effective for me and others on a long-term basis. I actually do not follow a strongly Paleo diet but I do eliminate wheat and added sugar (as the least painful/healthiest way to control blood glucose--which is a large part of controlling tendencies toward obesity).

so people that count calories are OCD, really?

Oh lawd here we go again ..so I can eat 500 calories of "quality" food, be over maintenance level, and still lose weight?

No, I did not say that. I easily stay within my calorie limit by employing food choices (and have for three years and counting). When I allow myself to eat whatever I like within my "no added sugar-no wheat" parameters, I find under-eating to be the biggest danger and that would be counter-productive in the longer term because it would cut lean body mass.

back tracking now?

you said that non-ocd individual find calorie counting tedious; hence, the implication is that anyone who counts calories and does not find it tedious is OCD ….

fixed the typo….

I was more or less joking on that assertion. Nevertheless, maintaining one's weight while calorie-counting IS a tedious affair. And further, it doesn't work because it is extremely difficult to be that precise. Eating just 100 calories more than what you need per day (and that is easily within measurement error) will just as easily put 70 pounds on you within 10 years. Or you can yo-yo up and down during that ten years--bleh. I have found what works for me.

How would anyone gain that much weight, even if it were just 25 pounds in three years without noticing it ? I maintained my 110 pounds ( for someone under 5 feet within the high normal range ) all my adult life by sometimes eating normal, sometimes eating a bit more ( on special occasions ) and then making up for it by eating less, or eating lighter. Losing and gaining within a 5-10 pound parameter is pretty much normal for all normal weight people and is not considered yo-yo-ing....it's just the normal way things balance out.
I wish I had stopped and eaten 100 calories less and I had not gained 80 pounds over the last eleven years ( not counting the last year when I lost 50 of them )...but personal reasons kept me from doing so. And btw: yes, I noticed that I gained weight....I just did not care at the time.

They WOULD notice and then many of them would get on the yo-yo dieting treadmill. I've been there and done it all. Now I maintain my weight effortlessly (in fact, I will probably lose another 5-7 pounds this year)--all without "dieting". I count calories only to ensure that I eat enough calories. When one eats nutrient-dense food, one is satisfied with many fewer calories.

you just told Ndj that it's difficult to stay under goal because your goal is so low due to your age, etc. but here you're saying that it's difficult to eat enough nutrient dense food to make your goal.

okay.

*sigh* I found it difficult to stay under my calorie goal on LOW-CALORIE diets--I was hungry and miserable all the time. Now, it is effortless. I make no attempt to "diet". I merely eat the foods that are right for me and I slowly lose (very slowly now that I am close to my goal weight). I assume that I will reach some level of homeostasis eventually.

I hope that sigh wasn't directed at my response.

You use "count" in present tense where I bolded.

Therefore, I could only assume that you presently count calories.
Now you are saying that you don't.

I'm not even being unkind here; I simply can not possibly be expected to understand what you mean by the things you say here, as every statement contradicts the previous.

I stole this from a member of a group I belong to on Facebook and it cracked me up. This is the best description of Paleo dieting I have ever seen!!!

"Just remember, plant oils are BAD because they're unsaturated fats, except for coconut oil and palm oil because they're saturated and that is GOOD. And butter and beef tallow and lard are animal fats and thus GOOD, don't think about the fact that they're all >51% unsaturated fatty acids. Oh and nuts and seeds are GOOD, except peanuts which are BAD, and the fact that they're all chock-full of unsaturated plant oils that we just told you to avoid is totally irrelevant. Also, grains and legumes are BAD, because they're the mature embryos of plants, which is BAD unless it's a nut or seed (which are also the mature embryos of plants) in which case it's GOOD. Lastly, dairy from cows and goats and sheep and camels and horses is a neolithic invention and thus BAD, unless you're talking about clarified butter in which case it's GOOD and you need to put that **** in your coffee instead of cream, but don't you dare put it on a slice of toast, unless you made that toast from almond flour or coconut flour. Totally clear."

Why do I always end up defending Paleo? :laugh:

A lot of the reasons listed here of why things are "good" and "bad" aren't really the "reasons".
And peanuts are legumes, not nuts.

giving simplistic nostrums like "calories in--calories out" does nothing to help anyone to curb the problem long term.

Actually, it does.

It is the very basis of what ANYONE needs to lose weight.

The fact that people try and claim they are special fairies who it doesn't apply to is much more of a problem, I would suggest.

While it is true that anyone can restrict calories and lose WEIGHT in the short term (you'll note that I SAID "long term"). But non-OCD individuals find calorie-restrictive diets tedious. That is why the weight-regain figures are so miserable. Calorie-restriction is ultimately not very effective for most people in terms of PERMANENT weight loss. In the end, WHAT you eat is easily as important as HOW MUCH you eat. I come here to share what has been effective for me and others on a long-term basis. I actually do not follow a strongly Paleo diet but I do eliminate wheat and added sugar (as the least painful/healthiest way to control blood glucose--which is a large part of controlling tendencies toward obesity).

so people that count calories are OCD, really?

Oh lawd here we go again ..so I can eat 500 calories of "quality" food, be over maintenance level, and still lose weight?

No, I did not say that. I easily stay within my calorie limit by employing food choices (and have for three years and counting). When I allow myself to eat whatever I like within my "no added sugar-no wheat" parameters, I find under-eating to be the biggest danger and that would be counter-productive in the longer term because it would cut lean body mass.

back tracking now?

you said that non-ocd individual find calorie counting tedious; hence, the implication is that anyone who counts calories and does not find it tedious is OCD ….

fixed the typo….

I was more or less joking on that assertion. Nevertheless, maintaining one's weight while calorie-counting IS a tedious affair. And further, it doesn't work because it is extremely difficult to be that precise. Eating just 100 calories more than what you need per day (and that is easily within measurement error) will just as easily put 70 pounds on you within 10 years. Or you can yo-yo up and down during that ten years--bleh. I have found what works for me.

How would anyone gain that much weight, even if it were just 25 pounds in three years without noticing it ? I maintained my 110 pounds ( for someone under 5 feet within the high normal range ) all my adult life by sometimes eating normal, sometimes eating a bit more ( on special occasions ) and then making up for it by eating less, or eating lighter. Losing and gaining within a 5-10 pound parameter is pretty much normal for all normal weight people and is not considered yo-yo-ing....it's just the normal way things balance out.
I wish I had stopped and eaten 100 calories less and I had not gained 80 pounds over the last eleven years ( not counting the last year when I lost 50 of them )...but personal reasons kept me from doing so. And btw: yes, I noticed that I gained weight....I just did not care at the time.

They WOULD notice and then many of them would get on the yo-yo dieting treadmill. I've been there and done it all. Now I maintain my weight effortlessly (in fact, I will probably lose another 5-7 pounds this year)--all without "dieting". I count calories only to ensure that I eat enough calories. When one eats nutrient-dense food, one is satisfied with many fewer calories.

you just told Ndj that it's difficult to stay under goal because your goal is so low due to your age, etc. but here you're saying that it's difficult to eat enough nutrient dense food to make your goal.

okay.

*sigh* I found it difficult to stay under my calorie goal on LOW-CALORIE diets--I was hungry and miserable all the time. Now, it is effortless. I make no attempt to "diet". I merely eat the foods that are right for me and I slowly lose (very slowly now that I am close to my goal weight). I assume that I will reach some level of homeostasis eventually.

I hope that sigh wasn't directed at my response.

You use "count" in present tense where I bolded.

Therefore, I could only assume that you presently count calories.
Now you are saying that you don't.

I'm not even being unkind here; I simply can not possibly be expected to understand what you mean by the things you say here, as every statement contradicts the previous.

I'm sorry you are having so much difficulty with understanding what I am saying--perhaps I am not explaining it very well. I sometimes forget that some of these concepts are quite new to some people. I DO count calories (I faithfully fill out my food diary every day and I note the calories. HOWEVER, I would not need to, as I am always consistently under--because of my food choices. The only reason why I do keep track of my calories is that I want to make sure I am eating enough calories to avoid losing too quickly. I have gouty arthritis that is made worse when I lose too quickly. It is improving but I do not want to go on medication for it, so I am trying to manage it with diet. If I didn't have some of the health problems I have, I would likely be more strictly Paleo in order to shed weight faster. Does that make sense to you now? Losing weight too quickly is undesirable for other reasons. The faster you lose weight, the more lean body mass you are apt to lose and that just sets you up for regain.

I stole this from a member of a group I belong to on Facebook and it cracked me up. This is the best description of Paleo dieting I have ever seen!!!

"Just remember, plant oils are BAD because they're unsaturated fats, except for coconut oil and palm oil because they're saturated and that is GOOD. And butter and beef tallow and lard are animal fats and thus GOOD, don't think about the fact that they're all >51% unsaturated fatty acids. Oh and nuts and seeds are GOOD, except peanuts which are BAD, and the fact that they're all chock-full of unsaturated plant oils that we just told you to avoid is totally irrelevant. Also, grains and legumes are BAD, because they're the mature embryos of plants, which is BAD unless it's a nut or seed (which are also the mature embryos of plants) in which case it's GOOD. Lastly, dairy from cows and goats and sheep and camels and horses is a neolithic invention and thus BAD, unless you're talking about clarified butter in which case it's GOOD and you need to put that **** in your coffee instead of cream, but don't you dare put it on a slice of toast, unless you made that toast from almond flour or coconut flour. Totally clear."

Why do I always end up defending Paleo? :laugh:

A lot of the reasons listed here of why things are "good" and "bad" aren't really the "reasons".
And peanuts are legumes, not nuts.

By this time next year, I expect you to be a card-carrying paleoarian with your second book soon to hit the shelves.

(Of course, you still won't be eating paleo, but you'll be one of its most well known proponents.)

(And it's my own personal opinion, but I still say that until someone has reached a goal weight and maintained it for a sufficient period of time, they honestly don't know if their method works or not (even for themselves, let alone for others). They may have *ideas* about it, but no actual firsthand knowledge of it.

Don't misunderstand...I'm not saying these people don't have a voice and that they should be ignored...or that third-hand knowledge is meaningless...but their firsthand experience of the effectiveness of their approach is nothing more than theory at this point.)

Since your ticker suggests that you are not at your goal weight, does that mean that we should be wary of any advice from you and consider it as "nothing more than theory at this point"?

(And it's my own personal opinion, but I still say that until someone has reached a goal weight and maintained it for a sufficient period of time, they honestly don't know if their method works or not (even for themselves, let alone for others). They may have *ideas* about it, but no actual firsthand knowledge of it.

Don't misunderstand...I'm not saying these people don't have a voice and that they should be ignored...or that third-hand knowledge is meaningless...but their firsthand experience of the effectiveness of their approach is nothing more than theory at this point.)

How someone feels on a cut and what's helping them achieve a caloric deficit isn't really a "theory" that needs to be tested. You're acting like weight loss is a new breakthrough area of science where we're still experimenting with hypotheses and testing out new theories... but at the end of the day, the basics of weight loss are pretty simple (not to say it's easy). Long term success/maintenance is a separate matter entirely and comes down to prioritizing health/fitness in your life and a test of willpower over time. People "fail" at maintenance all the time but it's illogical to think that this is somehow indicative of the efficacy of their method of cutting weight. People fail for any number of reasons, with complacency after reaching their goal weight being #1 if I had to guess.

Extending your logic a bit further, that means the average gym bro's advice would be more credible than, say, Lyle McDonald's advice on bodybuilding, since obviously the gym bro has put on more mass than Lyle and has kept it on for a longer period of time. Obviously the bro in question has that crucial firsthand experience and has tested his theory of gaining mass, right? You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll keep reading Lyle's articles even though he's not the biggest guy around.

To fall back on your assumption of someone's current "goals" and your perception of whether they've met them, rather than how well-supported their position is (or isn't), is a bit of a cop-out in my opinion. There are plenty of healthy people that know nothing about nutrition and offer up horrible advice as a result. To bring it back to this thread with an example, there are plenty of people eat a paleo diet, stay active and healthy, and believe they're such because they're eating what cavemen ate. That's nonsense, but they'd certainly pass your superficial litmus test. I guess what I'm saying is at the end of the day, adults should be able to have a conversation without getting into a pissing contest over their credentials. If someone's not supporting their position, attack their position; not them. As soon as you start up with "Oh you aren't persuasive grey-pictured poster because you haven't succeeded with your goals," that's going after the poster rather than the post. While we all have sources we consider more or less credible, there's a difference between thinking it and posting it.

As for "reaching your goals", goals are wherever you set them. Some are overly modest while others are overly ambitious, which makes "accomplishing your goals" rather meaningless. If you want to talk goals, you can point to Lyle's speed skating past and argue that he failed at his goals when it comes to the Olympic trials because he didn't qualify after years of training. And so what? Does that make his opinion any less worthwhile? Not at all - at least not in my opinion.

Not to change the subject, but I would like to thank paleo for introducing me to Kerrygold butter. Any plain old butter is delicious, but Kerrygold takes it to a whole other level (and has nearly ruined other inferior butters for me).

To fall back on your assumption of someone's current "goals" and your perception of whether they've met them, rather than how well-supported their position is (or isn't), is a bit of a cop-out in my opinion. There are plenty of healthy people that know nothing about nutrition and offer up horrible advice as a result. To bring it back to this thread with an example, there are plenty of people eat a paleo diet, stay active and healthy, and believe they're such because they're eating what cavemen ate. That's nonsense, but they'd certainly pass your superficial litmus test. I guess what I'm saying is at the end of the day, adults should be able to have a conversation without getting into a pissing contest over their credentials. If someone's not supporting their position, attack their position; not them. As soon as you start up with "Oh you aren't persuasive grey-pictured poster because you haven't succeeded with your goals," that's going after the poster rather than the post. While we all have sources we consider more or less credible, there's a difference between thinking it and posting it.

As for "reaching your goals", goals are wherever you set them. Some are overly modest while others are overly ambitious, which makes "accomplishing your goals" rather meaningless. If you want to talk goals, you can point to Lyle's speed skating past and argue that he failed at his goals when it comes to the Olympic trials because he didn't qualify after years of training. And so what? Does that make his opinion any less worthwhile? Not at all - at least not in my opinion.

Thank you. The voice of reason. :flowerforyou: