How do you feel about fat pride?
Replies
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I don't know much about the Fat Pride movement, but I support anything that helps people in general to feel better about themselves. I've been a pretty big guy all of my life and people can frankly be downright mean for no reason and it kills confidence and moral. People are people, fat or skinny.
Before you can begin to live a healthy lifestyle one must learn to love themselves, it took me a long time to learn that myself. Personally, I'm losing weight for me and not because society hates fat people; I don't need to be skinny to love myself.0 -
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.0 -
What constitutes a medically healthy weight is a not a matter of mere opinion. It is based on observing people who are overweight and noting what the excess weight does to their bodies: Their joints, hormonal systems, vascular system, etc.
Exactly, since I've been losing weight I've not been getting heartburn, I've had more energy and my knees don't hurt as much any more carrying the weight. Like it or not, being fat isn't a sustainable lifestyle and I learned that far too late.0 -
However, there are as many different cases as there are different people in the world. A woman I know had bad knees (both) long before she became over weight/obese. It may not be mere opinion (if you notice I was refering to his reaction to the weight and how the person may or may not appeal to him), but there are cases upon cases of people who are over the standardized healthy weight that can out run, our perform, have healthier blood pressures, healthier lungs and healthier hearts than those that are within the standardized weight range. Another woman I know works out five days a week, eats healthy and is still considered obese. Do all of these fit into the criteria you pointed out.
As long as you remain healthy in your activities, understand moderation, and eat healthy, you being overweight is not something to be ashamed of or to be shamed by others about. I am what my husband calls thick, definition, just this side of fat to be sexy. Now this is a matter of opinion, and like the saying goes, "opinions are like bootys, everybody has one". You may see my size and think its disgusting (not that I give a damn). Then see a woman just a bit smaller and think she is the bees knees. Your statement is a reflection of opinoin (the last part). I wont denigh that all you can eat joints and big pharma are trying to say ignore the issue of unhealthy obesity but you should also know that there are those that are obese that are healthy.Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in hear
... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
What constitutes a medically healthy weight is a not a matter of mere opinion. It is based on observing people who are overweight and noting what the excess weight does to their bodies: Their joints, hormonal systems, vascular system, etc.0 -
As long as you remain healthy in your activities, understand moderation, and eat healthy, you being overweight is not something to be ashamed of or to be shamed by others about. I am what my husband calls thick, definition, just this side of fat to be sexy. Now this is a matter of opinion, and like the saying goes, "opinions are like bootys, everybody has one". You may see my size and think its disgusting (not that I give a damn). Then see a woman just a bit smaller and think she is the bees knees. Your statement is a reflection of opinoin (the last part). I wont denigh that all you can eat joints and big pharma are trying to say ignore the issue of unhealthy obesity but you should also know that there are those that are obese that are healthy.Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in hear ... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
"think its disgusting"
I guess I really came off as overly overly judgmental - and clearly this is my fault ! - not the case...
When I was saying I abhor obesity I mean like the actual obesity
zero judgement here !
well I judged you a little - but just think you can come across as a lil ms. smarty pants :flowerforyou: 0 -
Its possible, but when you vilify the individual for being in that current state. Despite working to improve it, then there is a problem.I didn't read the 16 pages.. but this is what jumped out at me in the story:
"Fat acceptance is the radical notion that fat people are human beings and deserve respect,"
WHY is this so radical?
That is sad that seeing fat people as human beings that deserve respect is considered "radical". :frown:
Because people are interpreting it as "proud of being fat" rather than "not letting the label fat define you".
what is wrong with someone who feels proud of their body & its fat? why is it okay for other body types to be proud of their body but not fat people of their fattness? all this concern trolling health stuff is old and tired ...people need to allow others to love themselves as they are not constantly screaming "you can like you but you need to change you to really like you " .
society : be yourself
society: no not like that
I think one can take pride in who he/she is as a person and love him/herself while simultaneously taking a realistic assessment of his/her unhealthy habits. I think that the movement is relying on a false dichotomy between obesity promotion and fat shaming.
No one's vilifying them. We're just not saying it's OK (healthwise), or enviable or beautiful to be excessively fat. Fat Acceptance people want everyone to be PRO-obesity. That's ridiculous.0 -
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.0 -
Of course there are a huge bunch of indirect costs, what are you talking about?
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.0 -
Dont worry, Im only a size 14 so I dont count as a moving land mass. *eye roll*:grumble:
As long as you remain healthy in your activities, understand moderation, and eat healthy, you being overweight is not something to be ashamed of or to be shamed by others about. I am what my husband calls thick, definition, just this side of fat to be sexy. Now this is a matter of opinion, and like the saying goes, "opinions are like bootys, everybody has one". You may see my size and think its disgusting (not that I give a damn). Then see a woman just a bit smaller and think she is the bees knees. Your statement is a reflection of opinoin (the last part). I wont denigh that all you can eat joints and big pharma are trying to say ignore the issue of unhealthy obesity but you should also know that there are those that are obese that are healthy.Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in hear ... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
"think its disgusting"
I guess I really came off as overly overly judgmental - and clearly this is my fault ! - not the case...
When I was saying I abhor obesity I mean like the actual obesity
zero judgement here !
well I judged you a little - but just think you can come across as a lil ms. smarty pants :flowerforyou:0 -
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.
It's not true that they have no impact on my life. Who do you think pays for the larger seats when the money could be used on education? The taxpayer. Who do you think pays for the increased cost of PREVENTABLE diseases caused by obesity?
To discriminate means to treat differently. We treat smokers differently for purposes of life insurance and people with bad driving records for purposes of auto insurance. We do sometimes make people accountable for their behavior when they have control over it. I'm just saying that obesity isn't different.0 -
Of course there are a huge bunch of indirect costs, what are you talking about?
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.
Thank you. Of course there are a huge number of costs, direct and indirect. And this is exactly why I have a problem with "Fat Acceptance" (over "Fat Tolerance"). The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.0 -
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.
^huh?
and 'judging' ... they just did studies with babies on it regarding them feeling comfortable around different races, and they all exhibited strong strong traits of judging - its part of our survival instinct..
Not saying its good or great, but its an inherent trait.. now discriminating - that is an ill-mannered action from judging and that is wrong.
..but judging itself? ...pulleasse :P I didn't rock a brooks brothers suit and this new Johnson&Murphy belt and ferragamo kicks today because I just like them.. I like the attention I get from them..0 -
I've already stated like 15 times that we all indirectly pay for various expenses for other people - just like we'll all collectively help you (general) if you get cancer, or foodstamps if you lose your job, or unemployment if you get laid off. That's the way our country works. We're a community.
If I believed that obesity was a choice, like smoking (I quit 7 months ago), I'd agree with you. But obesity is not a black and white issue like some of you are making it out to be. It's an issue we're never going to fix it if we keep treating people like they are fat factory cut outs from the same mold - and ignoring the link between poverty and obesity.
People need to stop the "if you tried harder, you'd be less fat" line of thinking - it's far from being that simple in a lot of cases.0 -
The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.
At what weight does this become true though? 5 lbs overweight? 10? 25? Can it even be quantified? I don't know if the issue is as black and white as you paint it.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2013/12/does-metabolically-healthy-obesity-exist.html
This blog post - I posted it earlier - made me think a bit differently about what I thought I knew.
Again not saying I support the fat pride movement. I think I tend to agree with SunofaBeach on this issue.
I am also not sure, I agree with the conclusions from the above article. But if one were to agree with the conclusions (he makes a compelling argument), and agreed that 10% or so of obese people are actually metabolically healthy. Then what does that mean for non-obese fat people? What percentage of them are healthy?
I also wonder if we (as a society) can diagnose someone's health based on their body composition (which many in here are), or if we can even pinpoint what weight becomes dangerous.
Im not drawing any conclusions at all - I find the topic interesting. All i know is I am strongly against any type of obesity encouragement.0 -
I've already stated like 15 times that we all indirectly pay for various expenses for other people - just like we'll all collectively help you (general) if you get cancer, or foodstamps if you lose your job, or unemployment if you get laid off. That's the way our country works. We're a community.
If I believed that obesity was a choice, like smoking (I quit 7 months ago), I'd agree with you. But obesity is not a black and white issue like some of you are making it out to be. It's an issue we're never going to fix it if we keep treating people like they are fat factory cut outs from the same mold - and ignoring the link between poverty and obesity.
People need to stop the "if you tried harder, you'd be less fat" line of thinking - it's far from being that simple in a lot of cases.
^ I think we think that because that's what worked for us.
but your entirely right - there are medical conditions and I for one will be more mindful of that.0 -
Thank you. Of course there are a huge number of costs, direct and indirect. And this is exactly why I have a problem with "Fat Acceptance" (over "Fat Tolerance"). The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.
And on this I generally agree. Maybe I'm tired and not reading your posts they way they are meant.0 -
BMI over 30 is the rule of thumb I think...The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.
At what weight does this become true though? 5 lbs overweight? 10? 25? Can it even be quantified? I don't know if the issue is as black and white as you paint it.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2013/12/does-metabolically-healthy-obesity-exist.html
This blog post - I posted it earlier - made me think a bit differently about what I thought I knew.
Again not saying I support the fat pride movement. I think I tend to agree with SunofaBeach on this issue.
I am also not sure, I agree with the conclusions from the above article. But if one were to agree with the conclusions (he makes a compelling argument), and agreed that 10% or so of obese people are actually metabolically healthy. Then what does that mean for non-obese fat people? What percentage of them are healthy?
I also wonder if we (as a society) can diagnose someone's health based on their body composition (which many in here are), or if we can even pinpoint what weight becomes dangerous.
Im not drawing any conclusions at all - I find the topic interesting. All i know is I am strongly against any type of obesity encouragement.
*looks at you loosing 100+ lbs ...tips hat*
and yeah my thing is it takes away from the type of urgency there is for it.
I know my friend just said his younger brother age 12 is already on cholesterol meds... obviously thats a huge fault of the parents.. (who are super fit) ... but if he is surrounded in a culture where ... hey love your body.. hey its cool to have curves*...hey be content with where you are at... Idk I just don't see that as healthy..
*curves is a new way of saying fat #didn'tchaknow0 -
^huh?
and 'judging' ... they just did studies with babies on it regarding them feeling comfortable around different races, and they all exhibited strong strong traits of judging - its part of our survival instinct..
Not saying its good or great, but its an inherent trait.. now discriminating - that is an ill-mannered action from judging and that is wrong.
..but judging itself? ...pulleasse :P I didn't rock a brooks brothers suit and this new Johnson&Murphy belt and ferragamo kicks today because I just like them.. I like the attention I get from them..
*shrug*
We all get general impressions of people when we see them based on past experiences. But I generally wait until they've interacted with me on a personal level before I form any sort of opinion (judgement).
The problem that I have is sweeping generalizations. Like "fat people are lazy" - that's just okay with me.0 -
I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
Of course there are a huge bunch of indirect costs, what are you talking about?
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.
Thank you. Of course there are a huge number of costs, direct and indirect. And this is exactly why I have a problem with "Fat Acceptance" (over "Fat Tolerance"). The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.0 -
Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in here ... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
I call bull on having a degree in marketing, because:
1. You can't type a coherent sentence.
2. No marketer in their right minds would act the way you act online. It's a brand image problem just waiting to happen.
That is all.
Paige I'm not a marketer, I'm a salesman.
And I type fast to keep up withall the wit that comes flying out of my fingers.. just work with me here.
and yeah I got a degree in marketing and economics.. took 5 years.. finished up last summer, FTW!0 -
^huh?
and 'judging' ... they just did studies with babies on it regarding them feeling comfortable around different races, and they all exhibited strong strong traits of judging - its part of our survival instinct..
Not saying its good or great, but its an inherent trait.. now discriminating - that is an ill-mannered action from judging and that is wrong.
..but judging itself? ...pulleasse :P I didn't rock a brooks brothers suit and this new Johnson&Murphy belt and ferragamo kicks today because I just like them.. I like the attention I get from them..
*shrug*
We all get general impressions of people when we see them based on past experiences. But I generally wait until they've interacted with me on a personal level before I form any sort of opinion (judgement).
The problem that I have is sweeping generalizations. Like "fat people are lazy" - that's just okay with me.
Gotcha.. thats a good way to interact with people. :flowerforyou:0 -
Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in here ... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
I call bull on having a degree in marketing, because:
1. You can't type a coherent sentence.
2. No marketer in their right minds would act the way you act online. It's a brand image problem just waiting to happen.
That is all.
Paige I'm not a marketer, I'm a salesman.
And I type fast to keep up withall the wit that comes flying out of my fingers.. just work with me here.
and yeah I got a degree in marketing and economics.. took 5 years.. finished up last summer, FTW!
That's funny. I type pretty fast as well and I can manage a sentence without a typo. Just saying....
What exactly do you sell? I'm just curious because sales people have to market themselves and they don't typically like to offend broad segments of people, either.0 -
I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.
I mostly agree with you here (sorry, my mom is having major surgery tomorrow - I'm using you guys to distract me and maybe I'm a mess).
We do need a support system in place, free of judgement. We also need to look at the relationship between poverty and obesity. Did you know that fast food restaurants are densely packed in in poverty stricken areas? And the selection of fresh fuits and vegetables is considerably smaller? We need to teach people how to make good choices, what it means to eat healthy and make sure they have options.0 -
Also, just so everyone here is clear, ScottieJM can offend virtually every woman on this site countless times, but I got a strike for calling him out on his marketing degree. Wow, Scottie. Thin skin much?0
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Having a degree in marketing :smokin: ,lolz - not going to delve deeper into that though due to the trumping of a fellow SOB up in here ... but I will say that big pharma and these binge food places have done a remarkable job of not making it clear what is beautiful and worthy of admiration... rather they have made people feel complacent and apathetic with their appearance where they are willing to accept themselves having tons of pills and food consumed on the daily and think healthy people are "too skinny" ..and eating fast food and taking prescription drugs is normal.
the new "curves is cool culture" ... not that curves are not cool, its just that we call fat curves now!
I call bull on having a degree in marketing, because:
1. You can't type a coherent sentence.
2. No marketer in their right minds would act the way you act online. It's a brand image problem just waiting to happen.
That is all.
Paige I'm not a marketer, I'm a salesman.
And I type fast to keep up withall the wit that comes flying out of my fingers.. just work with me here.
and yeah I got a degree in marketing and economics.. took 5 years.. finished up last summer, FTW!
That's funny. I type pretty fast as well and I can manage a sentence without a typo. Just saying....
What exactly do you sell? I'm just curious because sales people have to market themselves and they don't typically like to offend broad segments of people, either.
I sell myself first.
Then I sell an idea.
And I'm not delving into personal stuff on a public forum like that...
#alreadycontentdatingmydreamgirl
Also.. I think I might make some spelling errors because I have really bad hearing problems in my left ear believe it or not.. -_- lots of ear problems as a kid and I don't hear too great out of it so I just memorized words in my head pronounced a lil funny and then it comes out spelled a lil odd occasionally.0 -
Also, just so everyone here is clear, ScottieJM can offend virtually every woman on this site countless times, but I got a strike for calling him out on his marketing degree. Wow, Scottie. Thin skin much?
Wait? What does that even mean? I was just teasing back with you?!
edit: and what do you mean offend virtually every woman on this site?! I get friend request from women on here all the time!? I like to think of myself as a gentleman... sure I need to grow up a lil, but I acknowledge that and am actually seeking improvement...and in my personal life.. I mean things have never been greater...!0 -
@TheVirgoddess: i'm trying!:flowerforyou:
Now, when you say "trying," do you mean "attempting" or do you mean "extremely annoying, difficult, or the like; straining one's patience and goodwill to the limit: a trying day; a trying experience"?
Oh, I knew pages ago that you were a Libertarian. Comments about flights and medical costs were not directed toward you specifically. I was simply suggesting that those using the "people who are overfat cost me money" excuse for cutting comments about the overweight often choose to participate in systems in which they pool their resources with people who make choices they might not agree with. And that not doing so ALSO involves costs, usually more weighty (pun only slightly intended) than pooling those resources do.
Not that it matters when it comes to this conversation, but just for accuracy's sake...I am not a bro. :laugh:
Since most medical centers use BMI as a primary indicator or obesity, what is medically classified as obesity falls into quite a wide range -- and the BMI is not a great indicator of actual health. I know what "obese" means medically, and there are plenty of people who fall into the obese range according to the BMI that are healthy, attractive, and not in the least bit smelly.
That being said, you're entitled to your opinion. After all, it's your opinion about reality -- you don't have the power to actually shape reality, just to comment on your perspective of it. I mean, my opinion might be that your attitude and mode of expression are "repulsive," but again, that's opinion based on a very narrow experience of you. You might be the nicest fellow in the world, and your personality might be more attractive to me if I had a wider experience of you than your comments in this thread. Thus, while I might be developing an opinion of you based on the very little I see, it by no means follows that your self-worth ought to be formed in any way by my opinion. And since I know my perspective is limited, I choose not to make a broader judgment of you at this time. It would be unjust for me to do so, and I'd rather focus on the things that I see that are positive. For example, it is very difficult to recover from drug addiction. That says to me that you have the strength of will to make course corrections when what you are doing is ultimately counter-productive and harmful to self and others. And that impresses me -- not everyone can finds a way out of that emotional and chemical dependency. You've clearly made changes for the better, and you're clearly focused on self-improvement.
My experiences are different than yours, so I have a different perspective than yours. Having a systemic endocrine disorder that incapacitated me for weeks at a time and caused me to gain weight despite being very self-controlled, I also know that things aren't always so simple. It wasn't until I was diagnosed (after years of struggling) and received hormone treatment that I was able to start dropping weight, and then my natural habits started working in my favor.
There may have been a time in the past when you would have seen me on the street and, with your limited information, thought "ugh, look at all that repulsive fat. Gee, I feel soo sorry for her suffering. She must hate herself and lack self-control." You would have been completely wrong, of course, but here's the thing: you have the right to think whatever you choose. I am not the thought police any more than I am the weight police or the personal choice police. And there would have been a time in the past when your opinion would have hurt my feelings, but the wonderful thing is that I've finally grown past the point in my life where others' opinions threaten my self-worth. That is not an easy place for anyone to reach, and I think that is the starting point for true health. So, I want to make comments that support that sense of self-worth in others instead of ones that are damaging to self-worth.
In my opinion, when you say a person IS fat or IS obese, and then you say fat/obesity is repulsive...you are defining that person as repulsive. That's not something I would ever do. I don't believe it's loving or helpful. I don't believe it's true (a person can HAVE too much fat, but that doesn't mean that fat encapsulates what s/he IS). And I don't believe it is a mark of strength of character. So I moderate myself accordingly. You and I have a difference of opinion. That doesn't impact me. And I don't have to live with you, so I have to log in and actually read what you say in order to hear it. If I get annoyed, I can simply stop reading.
I do feel like I ought to point out that I actually made no comments about MY estimation of your ability to be the David of this century. If an equally gifted artist is inspired enough by your physique to chisel it into marble, then that's completely between you and him/her. I prefer watercolors, and I find your pecs less inspiring than the natural beauty around me. I'd prefer to paint a tree. But you don't really care that I don't want to carve the shape of your body into stone, do you?
Frankly, I teased you because you actually seem to WANT to be teased...and I hate to disappoint. As you said, you LIKE the attention.0 -
@TheVirgoddess: i'm trying!:flowerforyou:
Now, when you say "trying," do you mean "attempting" or do you mean "extremely annoying, difficult, or the like; straining one's patience and goodwill to the limit: a trying day; a trying experience"?
Oh, I knew pages ago that you were a Libertarian. Comments about flights and medical costs were not directed toward you specifically. I was simply suggesting that those using the "people who are overfat cost me money" excuse for cutting comments about the overweight often choose to participate in systems in which they pool their resources with people who make choices they might not agree with. And that not doing so ALSO involves costs, usually more weighty (pun only slightly intended) than pooling those resources do.
Not that it matters when it comes to this conversation, but just for accuracy's sake...I am not a bro. :laugh:
Since most medical centers use BMI as a primary indicator or obesity, what is medically classified as obesity falls into quite a wide range -- and the BMI is not a great indicator of actual health. I know what "obese" means medically, and there are plenty of people who fall into the obese range according to the BMI that are healthy, attractive, and not in the least bit smelly.
That being said, you're entitled to your opinion. After all, it's your opinion about reality -- you don't have the power to actually shape reality, just to comment on your perspective of it. I mean, my opinion might be that your attitude and mode of expression are "repulsive," but again, that's opinion based on a very narrow experience of you. You might be the nicest fellow in the world, and your personality might be more attractive to me if I had a wider experience of you than your comments in this thread. Thus, while I might be developing an opinion of you based on the very little I see, it by no means follows that your self-worth ought to be formed in any way by my opinion. And since I know my perspective is limited, I choose not to make a broader judgment of you at this time. It would be unjust for me to do so, and I'd rather focus on the things that I see that are positive. For example, it is very difficult to recover from drug addiction. That says to me that you have the strength of will to make course corrections when what you are doing is ultimately counter-productive and harmful to self and others. And that impresses me -- not everyone can finds a way out of that emotional and chemical dependency. You've clearly made changes for the better, and you're clearly focused on self-improvement.
My experiences are different than yours, so I have a different perspective than yours. Having a systemic endocrine disorder that incapacitated me for weeks at a time and caused me to gain weight despite being very self-controlled, I also know that things aren't always so simple. It wasn't until I was diagnosed (after years of struggling) and received hormone treatment that I was able to start dropping weight, and then my natural habits started working in my favor.
There may have been a time in the past when you would have seen me on the street and, with your limited information, thought "ugh, look at all that repulsive fat. Gee, I feel soo sorry for her suffering. She must hate herself and lack self-control." You would have been completely wrong, of course, but here's the thing: you have the right to think whatever you choose. I am not the thought police any more than I am the weight police or the personal choice police. And there would have been a time in the past when your opinion would have hurt my feelings, but the wonderful thing is that I've finally grown past the point in my life where others' opinions threaten my self-worth. That is not an easy place for anyone to reach, and I think that is the starting point for true health. So, I want to make comments that support that sense of self-worth in others instead of ones that are damaging to self-worth.
In my opinion, when you say a person IS fat or IS obese, and then you say fat/obesity is repulsive...you are defining that person as repulsive. That's not something I would ever do. I don't believe it's loving or helpful. I don't believe it's true (a person can HAVE too much fat, but that doesn't mean that fat encapsulates what s/he IS). And I don't believe it is a mark of strength of character. So I moderate myself accordingly. You and I have a difference of opinion. That doesn't impact me. And I don't have to live with you, so I have to log in and actually read what you say in order to hear it. If I get annoyed, I can simply stop reading.
I do feel like I ought to point out that I actually made no comments about MY estimation of your ability to be the David of this century. If an equally gifted artist is inspired enough by your physique to chisel it into marble, then that's completely between you and him/her. I prefer watercolors, and I find your pecs less inspiring than the natural beauty around me. I'd prefer to paint a tree. But you don't really care that I don't want to carve the shape of your body into stone, do you?
Frankly, I teased you because you actually seem to WANT to be teased...and I hate to disappoint. As you said, you LIKE the attention.
I love the attention, and I love that you put the time into putting that together for me.
I sincerely apologize, your right..
"here may have been a time in the past when you would have seen me on the street and, with your limited information, thought "ugh, look at all that repulsive fat. Gee, I feel soo sorry for her suffering. She must hate herself and lack self-control." You would have been completely wrong, of course, but here's the thing: you have the right to think whatever you choose."
embarrassing to say your right - but you did just give me an entirely new perspective - and I say that genuinely.
:flowerforyou:
"So, I want to make comments that support that sense of self-worth in others instead of ones that are damaging to self-worth. "
Noble and I want the same, I guess I have not heard it articulated like that previously.
And in *real* life - yeah I'm not actually nearly as candid and devils advocate like at all... I'm just as witty but much more reserved and polite.
Seriously I appreciate that.. very moving for me.0 -
I'm sorry about your stressful situation. Best of luck to her tomorrow.I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.
I mostly agree with you here (sorry, my mom is having major surgery tomorrow - I'm using you guys to distract me and maybe I'm a mess).
We do need a support system in place, free of judgement. We also need to look at the relationship between poverty and obesity. Did you know that fast food restaurants are densely packed in in poverty stricken areas? And the selection of fresh fuits and vegetables is considerably smaller? We need to teach people how to make good choices, what it means to eat healthy and make sure they have options.
I'm in Europe so healthcare is a bit different here. Some things are familiar to me via various news channels (internet media, tv documentaries, magazines, etc.), but I can't comment on details. I've heard how fast food is cheaper than fresh, healthy veggies etc., which is very unfortunate. I'm also in healthcare myself, in other words acutely aware of the situation. While I think that a society can't just get from people, who work, but it should give to them in bad times, too, the current conditions aren't optimal anymore.
To me this whole fat pride thing goes so much deeper and we can't keep solving the problem people becoming larger by simply producing larger clothes so to speak; the cycle has to be broken at some point, sooner rather than later. And for that to happen, a whole lot of things need to change.
A significant step in my opinion is to have people take more responsibility over their health in general and the whole pill-popping, quick-fix culture needs to stop. Mental health is baked into the discussion as is consumerism, the whole more more more right now and not tomorrow thing. Again, my perspective isn't an average person's.0 -
I should have said direct costs, too, you're right.
Of course there are a huge bunch of indirect costs, what are you talking about?
Fat pride seems to be about tying self esteem to something BESIDES your weight just as Black Pride isn't about black supremacy and Gay Pride isn't about an anti-straight agenda.
Obesity and the state of being black or gay are not comparable. Blackness and gayness are immutable conditions that cannot be changed, over which the individual has no control and there is no rational reason to discriminate against those groups. Obese people are unhealthy. There is no justification for accommodating obese people who have no interest in losing weight.
Coincidentally, there is no justification for judging people that have zero impact on your life.
And there is NEVER a rational reason to discriminate against another person, period. Immutable conditions or not.
Thank you. Of course there are a huge number of costs, direct and indirect. And this is exactly why I have a problem with "Fat Acceptance" (over "Fat Tolerance"). The proponents won't acknowledge basic, well known facts, such as that being obese is strongly associated with many unhealthy conditions and complicates any health problem you already have.
While I think a society should be built on the idea that everyone is equal and taken care of if they need help, people should also have an open and honest discussion about obesity and its consequences. What does this look like other than enormously increasing costs? We as a planet can't afford this.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; discrimination is wrong but so is not stepping up and taking responsibility for one's actions. Not everyone will be able to make a lifestyle change on their own, but that's where the society should step in and create a support system, actively send out the message that un-health isn't a great idea.
I'd take a different view on things. I'd say you're entitled to get as fat as you want, smoke as much as you want, drink as much as you want, tan as much as you want, whatever you want that what makes you happy provided it doesn't hurt other people - but you should pay for your own healthcare / health insurance (or live with the consequences), rather than spreading that cost around to other people. Just my $0.02, but the problem with me having to subsidize other people's costs shouldn't be blamed on their poor health or their poor decision making; it should be blamed on our bloated government and healthcare system that spreads those costs around, rather than putting them on the individual responsible for their own poor health.
Society "creating a support system" sounds all nice, warm and fuzzy, but as a practical matter people are going to do what makes them happy (particularly what makes them happy in the short term), and that's particularly true when you begin to take away the financial consequences of their actions. Likewise, spreading a message that "un-health isn't a great idea", aside from the awkward double negative, isn't exactly going to do a lot. I'd wager that the vast, vast majority of fat people know they aren't in perfect health and that their weight is almost certain to catch up with them at the end of the day. That's like telling a smoker that it's bad for him - you think he doesn't already know that? Even most "fat acceptance" people aren't suggesting that they are as healthy as someone at a "normal" body fat measurement, but rather making a more nuanced argument about the negative effects of yo-yo dieting and the poor chances for long-term success in weight loss.
At the end of the day, I'd say to let people do what they want to do, don't worry so much about what other people do, and to the extent their poor choices affect your wallet, take that up with your bloated government.0
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