Relatively light people trying to get leaner

Sorry I don't know how to quote :-/
You asked if I read your links. I just did and I think I will try to do a routine on my own, as opposed to P90x (because I really do hate following videos. I just thought that was the only way I could figure it out until I read your links). Now I just need to get my son to show me what a "row" is

If your son has experience lifting weights, I'd have him check your form in all of your movements.

A row can be done a number of ways. Here are a few:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-xHEZABN5E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkb_YA8U4r0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkQnlCzh0RA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwAbj6sOpVg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLCvXbej_Q (can use a pronated or supinated grip... this video shows a supinated)

Sooo much to read, need to mark for later! I'm 2/3 through Insanity and it has changed not only my body, but my attitude about the ridiculousness of the scale at my height/weight (5'9" / 152). I look so much better than I did when I weighed 10 pounds less but did mostly the elliptical. I will be adding higher weight strength training when I'm done, like you suggest. Like many women I'm scared of the weight room. But I wll just get my *kitten* in there. Thanks for the *kick* Steve!

Love to hear stories like this. Be sure to spread the good word. More women need to hear stuff like this!

For my little upper body workout after my spin class I almost always just have girls. It has always bugged me seeing these girls lifting such small weights (3-5 lbs) when I can tell they are doing nothing. I flat out told them last night, if they lifted more, they would get more out of the workout and would see results. I can see the stigma rolling off of them not wanting to lift more, as if they know they couldn't lift more. Ideas on how to get them to see the light? I want to keep this little workout simple partly because I don't want to scare them away as I can tell they've never lifted before and also because I have no room (I have to do it in the spin room and I only have access to dumbbells and yoga mats).

First identify the fear. Obviously it's getting bulky and muscular.

Then define what goes into muscle growth. You need overload of the muscles via increasing loads lifted, sufficient calories, genetics, and hormones.

Then explain the rational conclusion. Unless they are consistently lifting heavier weights over time AND eating more calories than their bodies need AND have the genetic proclivities to pack on muscle very easily AND they're injecting hormones into their bodies to bring them up to the levels males have... they're worrying about nothing. In fact, what they're doing is "cutting off their leg during a race." Put differently, their diminishing the chances of reaching their goal physiques.

I've a thread on my forum that I suggest checking out. In it, here is one of the posts:

Speaking of women and weight lifting, another common area of confusion is the idea of women getting bulky from lifting weights. Let’s squash this right now. Go into any gym and check out the women who actually do seriously lift weights. Outside the realm of those select few who have deeper voices than your father, a chiseled jawbone and facial hair… how many women are actually loaded with muscle? Not many, if any at all. If you think otherwise you’re pretty delusional. I’ve been in the gym scene for a majority of my life and it just isn’t the case.

First things first and as noted above, most of the women around here are dieting. Male or female… when you’re dieting, packing on slabs of muscle simply isn’t going to happen.

Second, prime an environment for a woman to put on muscle by way of ensuring things such as a caloric surplus and appropriate weight lifting routine are in place. Even with this.... women are not hormonally dispositioned to build mass amounts of muscle. Even with the variables aligned for muscle growth, the majority of women aren’t going to get bulky. Hell, go to the gym and you'll see many MEN who train hard and heavy yet are still nothing spectacular in terms of muscle development. If getting really muscular were as easy as many women assume, people (especially men) walking around with ginormous arms and barrel-chests would be a dime a dozen. This just isn’t the case.

Don’t fall victim to this trap. As I noted previously, maintaining and even adding a bit of muscle is what you should be after if you're looking to 'tone up' your physique. Simply losing weight is a terrible goal. It leaves most, especially women, simply a lighter, softer version of their former selves. I've seen it happen time and time again. They lose the weight... they're even happy at first simply because they've been focusing on the scale for so long. Then it sinks in... huge amounts of frustration and disappointment because they still don't look the way they had dreamt about. They can blame this on the fact that they didn't do the muscle-saving things necessary to enhance physique.

The full thread can be found here:

http://www.forum-body-improvements.com/showthread.php?t=23

Stroutman81
First I'd like to say thanks for all the advice you post to help us mortals.

Haha, you're welcome. Thanks for the thanks. And I assure you, I'm about as mortal as they come.

After reading several of them I thought I would post to you my delema. I'm currently around 170lbs 5'10" male. I've lost around 137lbs so far and I'm looking to lose just a little more.

Wow, congratulations! How long did that take you?

I've been sitting at the same weight for over 3 months and 12% body fat. I would like to get down to 6-8% and a BMI around 21.

I'm replying as I read along, so sorry for the random thoughts...

But a couple of things here:

1. 6-8% body fat is not sustainable for most folks. Hell, I've pretty good genetics and I've trouble sustaining 10% year round. Can it be done? Sure. But the amount of tedious effort required to maintain that level of leanness carries some pretty substantial compromises. Ultimately it's obviously a call you have to make on an individual basis, but in my experience, unless you've insanely good genetics, maintaining that level of leanness brings down the overall quality of life too much.

Extremely driven and focused people with sub par genetics can certainly do it.

But by and large, if you've a "life" outside of exercise and eating ridiculously strictly... I'd suggest adjusting your body fat target.

UNLESS....

It's simply a target you'd like to hit just to say you did it and see how it feels. Who knows, maybe that's the right approach to take really. Hit and assess how hard it is to maintain for you personally given your genetics, lifestyle, desire, etc. Just take the above as a warning or some fuel to help manage your expectations. If you find it's not something you can maintain for the long haul... don't be frustrated. Most folks can't.

2. BMI - don't shoot for a specific BMI. I'm overweight by BMI standards. And I'm as healthy as a horse (whatever that means). I can do things most others can not, my blood panels are excellent, etc. BMI doesn't factor in body composition and in my mind, for those who aren't obese, it's a pretty worthless metric.

I've become an avid cyclist because of a knee replacement in August 2010. I look lean but I still have some fat retention around the middle. I've resorted to seeing a Sports Nutritionist to sort out my meals because it's not the lack exercise. After 6 weeks I'm at the same weight and around the same BF%. I feel that everything is in place but I'm not making any progress. I've decreased the intensity of my rides to 65-75% MHR sustained for 2-4 hrs. on long days and 70-95% on interval or hard rides of 2 or less hours. I ride 5-6 days a week. I also have 3 days of upper body strenth training.

Now I know there are a lot of factors to consider and more information that could be required, but where do I go from here? I would like to lose the additional body fat without increasing to much muscle weight just because of being a cyclist and I will be participating in long distance rides.

Here's a big pill you might have to swallow and I just got done saying this to someone else on MFP elsewhere. It seems around here that most everyone is trying to be an endurance athlete. And there's nothing wrong with that at all... I think endurance sports are awesome and I'm envious of these athlete's abilities as I've never been an endurance guy.

That said, being good at endurance sports is NOT synonymous with being ripped and lean.

Form follows function. Training specificity means something.

To optimize body composition, it takes a very balanced approach. Sure, you strength train 3 times per week... but you also do a pile of endurance work and endurance work in high volumes can make for some small muscles as they become more efficient and oxidative. Small muscles are the opposite of what's need to optimize leanness. Which isn't to say you need hulking muscle either. Just more balanced, and thus more balanced training.

And that's a hard pill to swallow for some folks. But it's important - having competing goals is a one way road to frustration. And of course there are always those statistical outliers who are great at endurance sports and ripped. But this is an exception to the rule more often than it's not.

Now with that out of the way.... I can also tell you that when it comes to fat loss, the last bit of it is typically the toughest to get rid of for various reasons. And when it finally does come off, not everyone has the genetic proclivities to walk around with 6 packs unfortunately.

I'm sure by now you're thinking, "Geez... I shouldn't have asked this guy anything" lol.

What's your nutritionist saying? I mean on one hand, to get ridiculously lean, you need to ride out a calorie deficit for long enough so that you tap into the stubborn fat. On the other hand, chronic deficits are not conducive to optimizing performance. Which brings us back to competing goals.

I mean, if you were going to focus solely on optimizing body composition... there are some pretty crazy dieting strategies floating around to help with partitioning (where calories are going and coming from). Most notably is Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0, which is something I've done before. However, it's certainly not for everyone and it's not an easy diet to adhere to. Plus, it's very specific on the nutrition and training front, so it's not something that'd be conducive for an endurance athlete.

Fun thread to find today. I'm tall, and by outward appearance, lean. I know better, and I'm trying to lose some of my squishy.

[True story: a guy I dated once told me he liked that I wasn't rail thin, he liked that I am "soft." While I also agree that I like not being rail thin, I want to be more tone, less soft! :laugh:]

I recently started P90X, and I am actively trying to push myself to use heavier weights. Those 3lb-ers are just silly. Depending on the move, I am using 5s and 8s, and I'm already on the hunt for heavier weights to borrow!

Good for you. Progressive overload (emphasis on progressive) is a must if continual results are going to be realized. Have to give your body a reason to adjust/adapt.

Thanks for that Steve. Going to see Physio today so will ask her about ART for hip flexors and lower back.

ART is simply one form of myofascial release. It's one I've had done to me quite a bit and it has helped a lot. But there are many others. Just so you know.

Interestingly, I was actually looking at buying some bands yesterday for that exact movement as well as using them to train me to push out more while doing squats.

Band training is interesting. I mean, from the rehabilitative/prehabilitative side of things ( like TKEs, band pullaparts, clamshells, etc) they're very useful. But I also use bands (and chains) for my strength training - this helps with something known as compensatory acceleration training. Of course this comprises a small percentage of my training and it's also worth noting it's not something novices should concern themselves with.

But I've done a lot of benching, deadlifting and squatting with bands and chains around the bar.

that's a very useful post, thank you!

You're welcome.

Speaking from experience I've been exercising more and doing a greater variety of exercise (including more squats/abdominal work along with my usual cardio) for the last 6 weeks or so.
My weight hasn't really changed significantly - it hovers around 122lb which is healthy for me - but I have definitely changed shape. My jeans are looser and I'm more toned, especially around the belly. So some fat has definitely gone, I'm assuming that I've increased muscle mass which is why I don't weigh any less. Which is fine by me, as long as I can see/feel a difference.

I wish I'd used the body fat % calculator on my scales 6 weeks ago as then I'd have a number to compare it to, but I didn't, darn it! too late now!

It's definitely good not to put too much emphasis on weight alone when you are close to your ideal BMI

Thanks for your insights and sharing your experience. Spread the good word!

I did't read all the comments, but you are in fitness? Do you have any nutrition degrees?

HELL NO!

I thought long and hard about studying nutrition in a structured setting and at the end of the day it was simply too tedious and dry for me. Plus, I've no interest in the clinical side of nutrition or prescribing diets for folks. Which is why you'll never see me give specific advice in terms of "eat this not that" or "you're diabetic so you need X or Y." That's beyond the scope of my practice.

I give very general advice regarding calories and nutrients and that's the extent of it.

Locally I work closely with a couple of RDs on clients who are beyond my scope of practice ( EDs, diabetics, PKU, and if memory serves me correct that's been the extent of my experience). Also, on my forum, which is quite a bit smaller than this, we've an RD. I bounce a lot of ideas off of the RDs I'm affiliated with but when it comes down to it.... when dealing with non-clinical issues, there's really nothing fancy about fat loss in the vast majority of cases.

I try and stay abreast of the latest research on the nutrition stuff, especially about the nuances I'm interested in, but admittedly I spend much more time researching physiology and psychology.

It's been stated over and over but thanks for posting and helping put the journey in perspective. I've been calling my last bit of weight my vanity pounds mainly because whatever the scales says really only makes a difference to me so I've been sticking to measurements as a true reflection of what's changing. Vanity or not, I'll be sticking it out for the long run

Exactly.

And you mentioned journey...

My journal that I keep on my forum is titled "Not a Destination, But a Journey." Cliche sounding I'm sure... but there's so much truth to this it's not even funny. If more people started focusing on the process I think there'd be a whole lot less anxiety and frustration.

Sure, it's good to have end targets. When structured properly they can help motivate folks. But if that's the extent of your focus, it can bite ya in the you know what. It's a slow, arduous process. Pair that with the fact most of us are brainwashed to strive for instant gratification. If you're only focusing on some arbitrary, far-off number.... chances are you're not going to enjoy this very much.

Personally I focus on finding ways to enjoy the here and now - the process. I focus on getting stronger in the gym, increasing certain metrics such as power, speed, etc. I'll focus on how much better I climb mountains this year vs. last. These are the things that keep me driven.

And as I known for saying.... FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION. Because I enjoy the process and I'm consistent with it... how I look and feel follows suit. So instead of focusing on my weight or my body.... I focus on those things that indirectly influence my weight and body. Not only that... I derive pleasure from those things.

Rambling a bit... but perception can be a huge hurdle for some people.