Sugar Problems
Replies
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Yep, I make everything up - like you guys. This is the internet after all!
But just to be clear - you are saying that (and this applys to everyone in every situation, whether exercising, or not) excessive glucose in the blood stream, will stay in the blood stream (if glycogen stores in the muscles and liver are full) for as long as it takes for the body to use it as fuel????
Just want to get that one clear in my head!0 -
DeirdreWoodwardSanders wrote: »We are all wearing the poop! We are all rubbing each other's noses in it. My point is that I can post all the links and you can post all the links and we are no closer to understanding each other because I am intractable in my position that sugar in certain forms is really bad for me, and you are intractable in your position that what is true for you must be true for everyone.
So what's the point of you even commenting on posts when people ask for help with sugar? They need help with their struggle with sugar, not snark about what they are going through isn't science.
I will agree wholeheartedly that a great deal of the purported science tossed around on these threads is total bunk. But something is going on with many foods available to us today. There's overeating, which I totally agree with you can be resolved with a bit of will power. But binging isn't a lack of willpower; it's a powerful response to stimulus, and all antecdotal evidence points to sugar as the culprit. If people are having trouble binging on steak and green beans, I haven't seen those posts.
I have. Granted, not as many, but in my time here I've seen quite a few posts about people binging on vegetables and other things they've deemed to be "safe" foods, and what are they supposed to do now?
I haven't been in this thread but my position, and the position I see most commonly, is that if a certain food causes binges for you then cut it out at least for awhile. But the food itself is not poison or toxic in reasonable amounts. And in unreasonable amounts everything is poison or toxic.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Yep, I make everything up - like you guys. This is the internet after all!
But just to be clear - you are saying that (and this applys to everyone in every situation, whether exercising, or not) excessive glucose in the blood stream, will stay in the blood stream (if glycogen stores in the muscles and liver are full) for as long as it takes for the body to use it as fuel????
Just want to get that one clear in my head!
How, pray tell, does one have full glycogen stores in a caloric deficit?
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herrspoons wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Except that there are a lot of people out there that will eat 4 four mars bars or a whole box of donuts!
Define 'a lot'?On a diet with medium to high sugar content it is likely your body is converting a fair bit of that into stored body fat - granted on a diet in a calorie deficit it will not affect weight gain, but it's still getting stored.
If you're on a calorie deficit, given the processes of glycolysis and fructolysis, it absolutely isn't getting stored. It may be temporarily shunted into muscle tissue, but if you use it up quickly enough, that's as far as it goes.Plus foods high in sugar will affect other health markers.
In what way? Specifically.
A lot - more than 2, my mates Dave and Gary for a start!
Yes glucose will be getting converted into body fat - your body on a calorie deficit diet will also be using ketones as fuel and thus will be drawing on body fat, so your overall body fat percentage will still be reducing the the body will not leave excessive glucose in the bloodstream for too long and your body has limited storage space in the muscles and liver to store glycogen!
Foods high in sugar consumed on a regular basis can cause inflammation and oxidation- which in turns causes the body to produce more ldl particles (just one example).
I'm not on the anti sugar wagon dude. I like sugar, some of my best friends eat it. Sugar in moderation has a part to play in a healthy diet.
I'm just not on the sugar is great wagon either!
Also - please define 'quick enough' -- but if you use it up quickly enough, that's as far as it goes.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. I'm not disputing people pig out on donuts and stuff, but people also pig out on nuts and cheese and other foods. Not sure why sugar gets a bad rep just because it's more efficiently processed and stored.
Your point about how energy is stored and used isn't correct, because the body will always use the easiest and most readily available source, which will be free glucose first then other sources metabolised as they are needed. It will never use fat or muscle tissue at the expense of glucose or easily broken down glycol. Ketosis only happens when there is no readily available glucose or glycol, at which point gluconeogenesis kicks in.
Finally, the amount of sugar you can take before it becomes a short or longer term problem will vary by size, weight, blood volume, etc, but a Mars Bar or two isn't going to kick it over.FunkyTobias wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Yep, I make everything up - like you guys. This is the internet after all!
But just to be clear - you are saying that (and this applys to everyone in every situation, whether exercising, or not) excessive glucose in the blood stream, will stay in the blood stream (if glycogen stores in the muscles and liver are full) for as long as it takes for the body to use it as fuel????
Just want to get that one clear in my head!
How, pray tell, does one have full glycogen stores in a caloric deficit?
So if you are an inactive person your body will always have depleted glycogen stores? and it would not be possible to eat enough sugar (in a deficit) to fill them up, plus some!
Okay if that's the case, fair enough it is impossible for sugar to be converted into body fat whilst in a calorie deficit!
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The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.0
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FunkyTobias wrote: »The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.
So in the muscles you can store about 350 - 400g depending on size. If you are inactive and do not do any exercise how is that glycogen that's stored being used each day - Is it from fueling organs or red blood cells through the liver?
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To induce substantial rates of carbohydrate conversion into fat, the body’s total glycogen
stores must be considerably raised, from their usual 4-6 g/kg
body wt to > 8-10 g/kg body wt. This requires deliberate
and sustained ovenconsumption of large amounts of carbohydrates for 2-3 d (13)
Two important conclusions can be deduced from these observations: 1) under usual conditions of unrestricted access to food, glycogen stores are spontaneously maintained
far below their maximal capacity, and 2) the common belief that carbohydrates are readily turned into fat can be dismissed as well as the frequently made argument that the high
metabolic cost of lipogenesis is a cause for greater energy dissipation on high-carbohydrate diets.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/61/4/952S.full.pdf+html
(Bolded for emphasis)0 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »my position, and the position I see most commonly, is that if a certain food causes binges for you then cut it out at least for awhile. But the food itself is not poison or toxic in reasonable amounts. And in unreasonable amounts everything is poison or toxic.
Yes, I think this is right and it's the advice I usually see. Sometimes eliminating foods contributes to binging issues, however, so a lot of people see the ultimate goal as working on the underlying problems that cause specific foods to be triggers.
I don't binge on food, but I certainly have had issues with overeating, and for me it's extremely easy to overeat steak and other non-carby foods (cheese, for example). It's also easy for me to overeat certain kinds of tasty (to my taste) sweet baked goods, like really
good homemade cookies. I don't find that carbs (or sugar) is the main culprit in the variety of foods I get tempted to overeat (or might indulge in for some stress eating), and therefore I notice when others seem to want to apply their own personal experiences to everyone (sugar or carbs make people lose control or whatever).
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FunkyTobias wrote: »The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.
Hmm. Only yesterday I read that the liver doesn't contain enough glycogen to fuel the brain for a day.
Muscle glycogen can only serve the muscle it's in of course, which may explain the discrepancy.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »my position, and the position I see most commonly, is that if a certain food causes binges for you then cut it out at least for awhile. But the food itself is not poison or toxic in reasonable amounts. And in unreasonable amounts everything is poison or toxic.
Yes, I think this is right and it's the advice I usually see. Sometimes eliminating foods contributes to binging issues, however, so a lot of people see the ultimate goal as working on the underlying problems that cause specific foods to be triggers.
I don't binge on food, but I certainly have had issues with overeating, and for me it's extremely easy to overeat steak and other non-carby foods (cheese, for example). It's also easy for me to overeat certain kinds of tasty (to my taste) sweet baked goods, like really
good homemade cookies. I don't find that carbs (or sugar) is the main culprit in the variety of foods I get tempted to overeat (or might indulge in for some stress eating), and therefore I notice when others seem to want to apply their own personal experiences to everyone (sugar or carbs make people lose control or whatever).
I think a lot of binge behaviour is wraped up in emotional eating since most foods that people binge on would be described as "comfort foods". If you don't deal with those triggers it's pretty hard to avoid binging in the future the way I see it.0 -
Hi All!
My name is Helena. This is my third time on Fitness Pal. I've been doing okay not tracking food/exercise for a while but not lately, as extra 11lbs are now showing.
I eat well, trying to stick to the 80/20 rule. My one problem seems to be the sugar intake. It's usually simple sugars from fruit but still. How do I eat my fruits and veggies without going over my sugar limits?
Whenever I track my food intake I am usually well under my calorie limit but over my sugars.
What am I doing wrong?
Do you have any ideas for veg/fruit/snack foods low in sugar?
Please help!
Thank you!
It sounds like maybe you need to eat more vegetables and less fruit per day. Both are healhty, but in general vegetables have less sugar. Berries are lower sugar fruits.
And perhaps eat more fat, since you are "well under" your calories.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »To induce substantial rates of carbohydrate conversion into fat, the body’s total glycogen
stores must be considerably raised, from their usual 4-6 g/kg
body wt to > 8-10 g/kg body wt. This requires deliberate
and sustained ovenconsumption of large amounts of carbohydrates for 2-3 d
That's perhaps a better number.
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FunkyTobias wrote: »The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.
Hmm. Only yesterday I read that the liver doesn't contain enough glycogen to fuel the brain for a day.
Muscle glycogen can only serve the muscle it's in of course, which may explain the discrepancy.
Interesting, but it may have to do with the fact that about 30% of the brain can run only on glucose and the brain is the largest consumer of glucose in the body. Seems that 160g of glucose is required per day and 120g is brain use (this does not include keto adapted individuals who could be substituting upto 70% of glucose with ketones).
The following link gives some more details http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22591/ and it seems about 20g of glucose is in circulation while 190g is in storage at any time. If the total glycogen capacity is 15g/kg then there would be a huge excess capacity available for more storage.
ETA hmm, seems I changed my thought pattern midcourse but I got sidetracked in some interesting stuff. I think you might be right that most of it is stored in the muscle but the liver can certainly create glucose as required.0 -
The 15 g/kg number comes from here:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.long
The subjects in this study were lean males, which could account for the discrepancy. The main point still stands, though: one does not have full glycogen stores in a caloric deficit.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.
Hmm. Only yesterday I read that the liver doesn't contain enough glycogen to fuel the brain for a day.
Muscle glycogen can only serve the muscle it's in of course, which may explain the discrepancy.
Interesting, but it may have to do with the fact that about 30% of the brain can run only on glucose and the brain is the largest consumer of glucose in the body. Seems that 160g of glucose is required per day and 120g is brain use (this does not include keto adapted individuals who could be substituting upto 70% of glucose with ketones).
The following link gives some more details http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22591/ and it seems about 20g of glucose is in circulation while 190g is in storage at any time. If the total glycogen capacity is 15g/kg then there would be a huge excess capacity available for more storage.
The brain can function on 30g of glucose with the remainder of fuel a mix of Ketones and lactate, as it can on being mainly fueled on glucose.
As yet I have not seen any studies showing that a long term diet of low carbs, high fat will cause the brain to function a lesser degree of efficiency!
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FunkyTobias wrote: »The 15 g/kg number comes from here:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.long
The subjects in this study were lean males, which could account for the discrepancy. The main point still stands, though: one does not have full glycogen stores in a caloric deficit.
Does not have? or cannot have?
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FunkyTobias wrote: »The subjects in this study were lean males, which could account for the discrepancy. The main point still stands, though: one does not have full glycogen stores in a caloric deficit.
Indeed, or when in calorie balance. The study said overfeeding carbs for 2 days was required to fill them up didn't it ?
The liver looks to hold about 400 calories which is available for the brain or other organs / muscles http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-bodyrsquos-fuel-sources0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.
Hmm. Only yesterday I read that the liver doesn't contain enough glycogen to fuel the brain for a day.
Muscle glycogen can only serve the muscle it's in of course, which may explain the discrepancy.
Interesting, but it may have to do with the fact that about 30% of the brain can run only on glucose and the brain is the largest consumer of glucose in the body. Seems that 160g of glucose is required per day and 120g is brain use (this does not include keto adapted individuals who could be substituting upto 70% of glucose with ketones).
The following link gives some more details http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22591/ and it seems about 20g of glucose is in circulation while 190g is in storage at any time. If the total glycogen capacity is 15g/kg then there would be a huge excess capacity available for more storage.
The brain can function on 30g of glucose with the remainder of fuel a mix of Ketones and lactate, as it can on being mainly fueled on glucose.
As yet I have not seen any studies showing that a long term diet of low carbs, high fat will cause the brain to function a lesser degree of efficiency!
No, and I have never said this nor have I seen anything that suggests this except in the transition from glucose burning to keto adaptation.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »The subjects in this study were lean males, which could account for the discrepancy. The main point still stands, though: one does not have full glycogen stores in a caloric deficit.
Indeed, or when in calorie balance. The study said overfeeding carbs for 2 days was required didn't it ?
Precisely. Thus tennisdude's assertion that DNL occurs in a caloric deficit is preposterous.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »The average capacity for glycogen storage is 15g/kg, over twice the maintenance calories of the average human.
Hmm. Only yesterday I read that the liver doesn't contain enough glycogen to fuel the brain for a day.
Muscle glycogen can only serve the muscle it's in of course, which may explain the discrepancy.
Interesting, but it may have to do with the fact that about 30% of the brain can run only on glucose and the brain is the largest consumer of glucose in the body. Seems that 160g of glucose is required per day and 120g is brain use (this does not include keto adapted individuals who could be substituting upto 70% of glucose with ketones).
The following link gives some more details http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22591/ and it seems about 20g of glucose is in circulation while 190g is in storage at any time. If the total glycogen capacity is 15g/kg then there would be a huge excess capacity available for more storage.
The brain can function on 30g of glucose with the remainder of fuel a mix of Ketones and lactate, as it can on being mainly fueled on glucose.
As yet I have not seen any studies showing that a long term diet of low carbs, high fat will cause the brain to function a lesser degree of efficiency!
No, and I have never said this nor have I seen anything that suggests this except in the transition from glucose burning to keto adaptation.
Sorry, I'm lost!!
I didn't say you said it - I'm saying it!
And I'm just making a statement that I have yet to see any studies this is not the case.
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