Male body pressure becoming the same as women?
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Gotcha...now I see where you're going with that.NoelFigart1 wrote: »sklarbodds wrote: »
Not disagreeing with what you're saying, per se...but I'm failing to understand to what you're arguing for or against and how that relates to the articleNoelFigart1 wrote: »The structure is set up for the non-powerful to be consumables for those with more power. In general, but not always, it's the straight white male.
Wanna see what the power structure really is? Step out of your assigned role in front of someone who has the power to sanction you for it. It's enlightening. But kinda like the matrix, once you see it, you can't not see it.
In general, the power structure favors heterosexual men, and in those instances, I think there is greater pressure on the woman to present as a superior consumable. It is not unusual to be mistreated if you step out of this assigned role. (And for those of you who argue that women are crueler about this, I will keep in mind that those with less power will fiercely protect what they have in a way that will make them seem quite ruthless to those who do not even realize where they are in the power structure)
I'm not saying this pressure does not exist for men, but I think in general it is considerably less than for women.
So no, I don't think men have it as bad as women to be considered sexually attractive. Even the media has some pretty clear examples of this. (Tony Soprano and his attractiveness relative to his wife leaps to mind, but there are others).
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Yeah, one of my wife's friends knows them and that's basically what she said. He's not abusive but definitely a control freak. She kind of thinks that his wife is only with him because he's rich.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
Yeah, one of my wife's friends knows them and that's basically what she said. He's not abusive but definitely a control freak. She kind of thinks that his wife is only with him because he's rich.
He might not be physically abusive but I'd bet he's emotionally abusive. I think there has to be a certain amount of bullying going on so she decides it's just less conflict to be a stepford wife.
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This is exactly my thought process. Maybe I just think about sec too much. But I'm constantly eye-fracking guys even when they aren't gorgeous or putting tremendous effort into their appearance.I'm sure you have- just not to your face.- and it's different than how women judge- but it happens. Regardless of your awareness of it or not.
Don't confue the vajority of men looking at you as judgement. We're answering one question and one question only with ourselves.
Would you sleep with that woman? The answer, for most straight guys, is yes. Sometimes its a resounding yes, other times its yeah of course, sometimes its yes but maybe only once or twice. But make no mistake. We want to sleep with most all of you.
Judge you by your clothes? Nope. Hair color? Maybe 15 year olds do, but actual men don't care. How does it feel when I pull on it? That's as far as hair goes. Eye color...I told you men are not women. All the other stuff women are concerned with. Not my worry.
We do appreciate that you take care of yourself and want to look nice. But, men are pretty binary.
Sex, yes. Sex, no. Off, on.
You're welcome.0 -
Yeah, I completely agree with you. Those two behaviors usually go hand-in-hand.Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
Yeah, one of my wife's friends knows them and that's basically what she said. He's not abusive but definitely a control freak. She kind of thinks that his wife is only with him because he's rich.
He might not be physically abusive but I'd bet he's emotionally abusive. I think there has to be a certain amount of bullying going on so she decides it's just less conflict to be a stepford wife.
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Pretty much spot on it's just not literally, it's more like power and money than looks.0
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I have pressure? I was not aware of this.0
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »This is something I've seen a lot when stumbling into the bodybuilding.com misc forum (clearly not my demographic but fascinating to read, like watching a National Geographic special on a different culture.) There's a ton of focus/worry/gnashing of teeth over height and hair. A lot of it is phrased in a "will girls like me" way and it's kind of sad to see how many guys seem to take the negativity to heart. I think guys are harsher on guys than are women and the vice versa is true as well.
Yeah, but that's like judging all of America solely based on watching Jersey Shore.
Well, if you ignore the misogynist, homophobic crap of /misc. Oh, wait...
Not sure how you leaped to conclusion that I was judging when I was simply commenting on what I see in one specific forum. Clearly not all of America (or any other place) is going to represented by that forum, much like the opinions in this thread aren't representing all of America, Canada, etc.
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Personally I think that the pressure for males has been set so high for so long that we really stopped seriously giving a fudge about it a loooong time ago unless you are still relatively young and haven't become completely cynical about it just yet.
For guys, the media pushes you to be 6'4 (until recently) completely hairless, naturally tanned, perfect bone structure for symmetry, unnaturally muscular while holding a below 12 percent body fat at all times. All the while you need a 6+ figure income, be socially fearless, masculine enough to kill a bear with your bare hands yet stylish enough that you find your old wardrobe featured in the pages of GQ.
Although I think the standards for males is waaay higher than that of females until recently, I do not think we feel the same pressure as females. The hollywood BS is more readily dismissed for males as you can walk around and actively see that if you are a male with a semi decent personality and are financially secure enough to ensure a secure lifestyle for a female partner and her offspring, then you can easily transcend the "standard." It makes perfect evolutionary sense when you think about it. Females are hard-wired to ensure the survival of themselves and their offspring. If that comes in a semi-entertaining package of a fat jolly guy with financial resources to really secure that future then it makes perfect sense for the attraction. This of course does not lesson pressure on women for physical beauty though the same way it does for men.
I think it is going to be an interesting road ahead for women though. The stylish, beauty standard for women 10 years ago was basically to be crackhead thin. Now we are sexualilizing fitness with women (just check out any ads now, stick thin is out, lean with muscle is the new hot). I think this will be a even taller order for women to meet though. Before, they could basically just starve themselves to their ideal standard. That won't work anymore. If they do that now then they won't get the lean muscular shape that they are now saying is beautiful. They will now have to endure what men have been expected to do all along and gain that lean muscular look with low body fat percentage. That combined with the fat-girl health at any size crap is going to create an interesting pendulum swing back and forth until I believe finally women as a whole will FINALLY come together like males do and say "*kitten* this *kitten*" and just be happy with who they are. Let's be honest, it is usually not men that are imposing this high standard, it's females doing it to each other....but I digress.
I think the real turning point for women to get over their own imposed beauty standards and feel the relief men feel is when parents and our society as a whole start value and praise women that are scientist, athletes, inventors, and so on rather than women who have reality shoes because they made a sex tape or because they like to go shopping and get drunk and gossip about each other.
I don't have a daughter but I couldn't imagine having to bring them up in a society where the majority of people can spout of the cast of the real housewives of wherever and not be able to tell me the name of one female astronaut. Unreal yet I believe to an extent it is self-imposed by your own gender. As the main consumer of this crap, women need to stand up and make this change or else it will just remain the same for further generations.
Apologies for the random throw-up of thoughts I had on this post.
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I've seen guys like that and I honestly think in most cases it is definitely a form of abuse. I can't even fathom it being healthy to control everything in your SOs life like that.
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ThisSam_I_Am77 wrote: »
Yeah, one of my wife's friends knows them and that's basically what she said. He's not abusive but definitely a control freak. She kind of thinks that his wife is only with him because he's rich.
He might not be physically abusive but I'd bet he's emotionally abusive. I think there has to be a certain amount of bullying going on so she decides it's just less conflict to be a stepford wife.0 -
I'm sure you have- just not to your face.- and it's different than how women judge- but it happens. Regardless of your awareness of it or not.
Don't confue the vast majority of men looking at you as judgement. We're answering one question and one question only with ourselves.
Would you sleep with that woman? The answer, for most straight guys, is yes. Sometimes its a resounding yes, other times its yeah of course, sometimes its yes but maybe only once or twice. But make no mistake. We want to sleep with most all of you.
Judge you by your clothes? Nope. Hair color? Maybe 15 year olds do, but actual men don't care. How does it feel when I pull on it? That's as far as hair goes. Eye color...I told you men are not women. All the other stuff women are concerned with. Not my worry.
We do appreciate that you take care of yourself and want to look nice. But, men are pretty binary.
Sex, yes. Sex, no. Off, on.
You're welcome.
It is a judgement.
It doesn't matter WHAT I think about it- but it's still a judgement. She's either hot/mediocre enough to have sex with- or not. It's still a judgement.
Like i said- it's not the same- and I'm well aware of this but don't pretend it's still not a judgement. It's an out and out objectification about how fukable a woman is. And that's a pass or fail judgement. Don't pretend like it's better than a woman's version of that- which is typically done out of jealousy: it's still a judgement.
the disucssion wasn't about you're concern or not. The question was "do men do it" and the answer is a resounding YES.And I could care less, since it doesn't affect me. I know that people have likely made judgementsabout my shaved head, but what goes on in their heads doesn't change what I think our do.
I don't care if you care- they don't care if you care- you don't care if they care. All fine.
But let's not pretend "it' never happens."
It happens ever single time you step out side- you're objectified and viewed on your fu*kability.
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I'm sure you have- just not to your face.- and it's different than how women judge- but it happens. Regardless of your awareness of it or not.
Don't confue the vast majority of men looking at you as judgement. We're answering one question and one question only with ourselves.
Would you sleep with that woman? The answer, for most straight guys, is yes. Sometimes its a resounding yes, other times its yeah of course, sometimes its yes but maybe only once or twice. But make no mistake. We want to sleep with most all of you.
Judge you by your clothes? Nope. Hair color? Maybe 15 year olds do, but actual men don't care. How does it feel when I pull on it? That's as far as hair goes. Eye color...I told you men are not women. All the other stuff women are concerned with. Not my worry.
We do appreciate that you take care of yourself and want to look nice. But, men are pretty binary.
Sex, yes. Sex, no. Off, on.
You're welcome.
Are you speaking for yourself? Please don't speak for me.
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Do people REALLY get that much influence from the "media"? If they do, they should turn off the T.V., put down the magazine and pay attention to real life. 30% of the population is obese. I look around and think we (my husband and I) are doing pretty good to be healthy and active. Our children are healthy and active. The end. Why would I compare myself to a model or movie star?0
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I much prefer expecting adults to act like adults, as opposed to socially maladjusted, immature dip wads who have an over inflated sense of self importance.
Yes, I did just spend a weekend in SF's SoMa neighborhood.
And maybe some men do not react the same way you do because they do not have the same coping mechanisms to deal with "adult life."
True, not everyone had to earn what they have, or stand up on their own two feet.
My suggestion, is that they try. I see no value to society or to the individual to celebrate immaturity or mediocrity.
And maybe it is exactly attitudes like this which are the problem.
If a man wants to be aspirational then great but what's wrong with being "mediocre"? Or, what's wrong with being a man who has an average physique, who earns a mediocre wage, who marries the girl next door and contributes in his own small way to the world he lives in?
Hypermasculine males do not have the monopoly on masculinity or get to define what it means universally.
Seriously? What's wrong with being mediocre? You really just asked that?
Yeah, I get it, you may not be the next inductee into MENSA, or the Illuminati... but you don't want to be the best you that you can be?
I don't even want to understand that type of approach to life.
Women, children, and the weak do not have the monopoly on getting to define what masculine, or even maleness means universally. If you want the right to define something, earn that right, and be able to defend the definition. You can't do that by promoting mediocrity.
Also, I'm sorry, if you aren't masculine, and don't want to be, you have no right to define for others what masculine is.
Hypermasculinity portrayed in media shows a man to be at least 6 feet tall, have chiseled abs, have a certain jawline, have thick hair, and so on. It also shows them to be wealthy, living in large houses and driving expensive cars. The argument here is not about if you are aiming to be mediocre, it's what if you ARE mediocre in the context of how you stack up to society's definition of masculine?
What if you're 5'7", have a jawline that is NOT classically attractive, and have naturally thin hair? Maybe you could bust your *kitten* to get abs, but those other things aren't exactly changeable. What if you're extremely talented in your field of work and make enough to support yourself and your family, but your job isn't high-paying? The media says this is mediocre. Many individuals in society affirm this is mediocre. But if you're striving to be the best you can be within the framework you were born with, why should you be made to feel like you're less of a man for it?0 -
lol0
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I haven't really noticed or felt this...but I'm guessing it also matters where you are living and the culture. I'm just a country bumpkin from New Mexico...I'm sure things are much different in Manhattan for example.0
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For guys, the media pushes you to be 6'4 (until recently) completely hairless, naturally tanned, perfect bone structure for symmetry, unnaturally muscular while holding a below 12 percent body fat at all times. All the while you need a 6+ figure income, be socially fearless, masculine enough to kill a bear with your bare hands yet stylish enough that you find your old wardrobe featured in the pages of GQ.
As a 35 year old single male who's out in the dating world, this one really resonates. I get a lot of females who will really trash talk guys because "He just sent me a message on Match that said, 'Hi'...what is that? Have some confidence and be interesting". And of course they do not think they should ever send the first message.
First, the pressure to look good enough to attract someone online is big enough, but now with online dating (or even in a bar really) you have about 8 words or less to be extremely creative, genuine and thought provoking? It's absurd.
I do OK in dating (well, I can't seem to find a decent relationship, but I can find many LOL) but that's partially because I've very naturally outgoing and I have had a lot of practice communicating through work, being social, etc. But I know a lot of VERY decent guys who if given some time to actually get to know would be awesome mates. But, because they're more timid they don't come across as confident and it's very hard for them to get passed the initial eyeball test.
Plus you have to come across as just the right combination of 'casual' and 'interested'. Too interested, then there's too much pressure. Too casual? Well, he's not interested.
It's really absurd.0 -
I think it is an issue.. definitely a problem particularly for young men growing up in this society. I never thought the solution to all the body issues caused by societal pressure on women was to give men the same problem. ....the media is what it is... it is meant to make us unhappy so we go out and buy things..... And i will say some of the things the quoted article mentions are so unappealing to me, as a woman, that I find it hard to believe people actually think that is what "men" "ought" to be (guzzling booze????). I think what i find most interesting is the article seems to support notions of masculinity that I find questionable, while only challenging the diet concept.0
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I'm sure you have- just not to your face.- and it's different than how women judge- but it happens. Regardless of your awareness of it or not.
Don't confue the vast majority of men looking at you as judgement. We're answering one question and one question only with ourselves.
Would you sleep with that woman? The answer, for most straight guys, is yes. Sometimes its a resounding yes, other times its yeah of course, sometimes its yes but maybe only once or twice. But make no mistake. We want to sleep with most all of you.
Judge you by your clothes? Nope. Hair color? Maybe 15 year olds do, but actual men don't care. How does it feel when I pull on it? That's as far as hair goes. Eye color...I told you men are not women. All the other stuff women are concerned with. Not my worry.
We do appreciate that you take care of yourself and want to look nice. But, men are pretty binary.
Sex, yes. Sex, no. Off, on.
You're welcome.
I'm probably more like you when I view women but I've met many men that are incredibly critical of how a woman looks. Some of those men are attractive themselves and some are not, it's kind of a weird thing. My wife and I go to this one country bar and there's this one guy that comes in with his wife and he always has her dress a certain way, she has to stand with him a certain way, it's rather weird.
That sucks for the wife. Unless that is what she is into.
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It is a judgement.
It doesn't matter WHAT I think about it- but it's still a judgement. She's either hot/mediocre enough to have sex with- or not. It's still a judgement.
Like i said- it's not the same- and I'm well aware of this but don't pretend it's still not a judgement. It's an out and out objectification about how fukable a woman is. And that's a pass or fail judgement. Don't pretend like it's better than a woman's version of that- which is typically done out of jealousy: it's still a judgement.
the disucssion wasn't about you're concern or not. The question was "do men do it" and the answer is a resounding YES.And I could care less, since it doesn't affect me. I know that people have likely made judgementsabout my shaved head, but what goes on in their heads doesn't change what I think our do.
I don't care if you care- they don't care if you care- you don't care if they care. All fine.
But let's not pretend "it' never happens."
It happens ever single time you step out side- you're objectified and viewed on your fu*kability.
Call it whatever you want. People look at each other and make judgements. Everyone everywhere does it, I was not saying men don't judge. We just judge on a different scale than women do
Yes everyone judges, including you and me.
Better to live in reality and make your peace with it, then to deny reality and boo-hoo about it.
That was my only point.
There are a lot of people out there, men and women, who need to quit being *kitten*.0 -
I think yes and no.
Are men susceptible to the same kind of body issues that women are? Yes. Most defiantly yes. Body issues, eating disorders, depression, shame...these are not gender exclusive issues.
Do I think that the American society has an equal beauty standard for men and women. No, I don't. There are still a far wider variety of men displayed all throughout media (age, weight, height, build etc...) than there are women. I do feel like recently there has been a hard push for a wider variety of women across all boards and there has been some success. On the other side, there has possibly been an increase in the amount of content targeted toward the female/male homosexual gaze as we are slowly starting to realize that those people spend money too.
However, if statistics showed that there has been a recent increase in male body issues, I would not be surprised. These little changes would cause an increase. I think it's more that women are finally starting to be broadly marketed to and because of that, men are starting to get a small dose/taste of what women have been dealing with for a long time and they are starting to experience real complications from it. I think it's far from being even close to being equal though.
Now having said all this, I do not mean to minimize ANY male suffering or body issues because it doesn't really matter how or why people suffer, it just matters that they are suffering. Anyone, male or female, who is fighting with any kind of body issues/depression/eating disorders and the like should be taken seriously. This is actually where I think it could possibly be more difficult for men because I have seen that many men are ashamed/embarrassed of their issues and are far less likely to reach out for support and help. I can get down and out and talk to a girlfriend and that girlfriend will have empathy for my issues since she likely has the same struggle. I'm not sure many guys have the same support.
*sorry for the edits0 -
I'm sure you have- just not to your face.- and it's different than how women judge- but it happens. Regardless of your awareness of it or not.
Don't confue the vast majority of men looking at you as judgement. We're answering one question and one question only with ourselves.
Would you sleep with that woman? The answer, for most straight guys, is yes. Sometimes its a resounding yes, other times its yeah of course, sometimes its yes but maybe only once or twice. But make no mistake. We want to sleep with most all of you.
Judge you by your clothes? Nope. Hair color? Maybe 15 year olds do, but actual men don't care. How does it feel when I pull on it? That's as far as hair goes. Eye color...I told you men are not women. All the other stuff women are concerned with. Not my worry.
We do appreciate that you take care of yourself and want to look nice. But, men are pretty binary.
Sex, yes. Sex, no. Off, on.
You're welcome.
It is a judgement.
It doesn't matter WHAT I think about it- but it's still a judgement. She's either hot/mediocre enough to have sex with- or not. It's still a judgement.
Like i said- it's not the same- and I'm well aware of this but don't pretend it's still not a judgement. It's an out and out objectification about how fukable a woman is. And that's a pass or fail judgement. Don't pretend like it's better than a woman's version of that- which is typically done out of jealousy: it's still a judgement.
the disucssion wasn't about you're concern or not. The question was "do men do it" and the answer is a resounding YES.And I could care less, since it doesn't affect me. I know that people have likely made judgementsabout my shaved head, but what goes on in their heads doesn't change what I think our do.
I don't care if you care- they don't care if you care- you don't care if they care. All fine.
But let's not pretend "it' never happens."
It happens ever single time you step out side- you're objectified and viewed on your fu*kability.
I like your photo.
I'm not trying to objectify you,
but . . . robertdowneyjrlipbite.gif
just sayin.0 -
Male body beard pressure.
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It is a judgement.
It doesn't matter WHAT I think about it- but it's still a judgement. She's either hot/mediocre enough to have sex with- or not. It's still a judgement.
Like i said- it's not the same- and I'm well aware of this but don't pretend it's still not a judgement. It's an out and out objectification about how fukable a woman is. And that's a pass or fail judgement. Don't pretend like it's better than a woman's version of that- which is typically done out of jealousy: it's still a judgement.
the disucssion wasn't about you're concern or not. The question was "do men do it" and the answer is a resounding YES.And I could care less, since it doesn't affect me. I know that people have likely made judgementsabout my shaved head, but what goes on in their heads doesn't change what I think our do.
I don't care if you care- they don't care if you care- you don't care if they care. All fine.
But let's not pretend "it' never happens."
It happens ever single time you step out side- you're objectified and viewed on your fu*kability.
Call it whatever you want. People look at each other and make judgements. Everyone everywhere does it, I was not saying men don't judge. We just judge on a different scale than women do
Yes everyone judges, including you and me.
Better to live in reality and make your peace with it, then to deny reality and boo-hoo about it.
That was my only point.
There are a lot of people out there, men and women, who need to quit being *kitten*.
I would agree. And I thought I was pretty sure I had said that in my original post. But yeah- I think we are on the same page. LOL
even if you were- I ain't made at yaI like your photo.
I'm not trying to objectify you,
but . . . robertdowneyjrlipbite.gif
just sayin.
where is that gif anyway- we need that.0 -
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I think yes and no.
Are men susceptible to the same kind of body issues that women are? Yes. Most defiantly yes. Body issues, eating disorders, depression, shame...these are not gender exclusive issues.
Do I think that the American society has an equal beauty standard for men and women. No, I don't. There are still a far wider variety of men displayed all throughout media (age, weight, height, build etc...) than there are women. I do feel like recently there has been a hard push for a wider variety of women across all boards and there has been some success. On the other side, there has possibly been an increase in the amount of content targeted toward the female/male homosexual gaze as we are slowly starting to realize that those people spend money too.
However, if statistics showed that there has been a recent increase in male body issues, I would not be surprised. These little changes would cause an increase. I think it's more that women are finally starting to be broadly marketed to and because of that, men are starting to get a small dose/taste of what women have been dealing with for a long time and they are starting to experience real complications from it. I think it's far from being even close to being equal though.
Now having said all this, I do not mean to minimize ANY male suffering or body issues because it doesn't really matter how or why people suffer, it just matters that they are suffering. Anyone, male or female, who is fighting with any kind of body issues/depression/eating disorders and the like should be taken seriously. This is actually where I think it could possibly be more difficult for men because I have seen that many men are ashamed/embarrassed of their issues and are far less likely to reach out for support and help. I can get down and out and talk to a girlfriend and that girlfriend will have empathy for my issues since she likely has the same struggle. I'm not sure many guys have the same support.
*sorry for the edits
Agree.
I do think the expectations on women to look a certain way are more pervasive throughout society, and not just in the context of attracting someone to sleep with or be in a relationship with. However the answer to this is definitely not for the superficial objectification of men to catch up with women. I don't know, as I've no experience of male-male relationships or interaction, but I wouldn't be surprised if men in general did not feel as confident as women do with their friends to talk about body issues which I think can help you to recognise perhaps others do not hold you to the standard of perfection you hold yourself or that the media encourages you to believe you must attain.
Being judged on your looks daily, having strangers comment on your appearance, and feeling ashamed of normal features like cellulite and body hair is not something I think the general population of men are missing out on. I don't give a monkey's if a man is tall, muscular, super handsome, rich, intelligent, or sophisticated; I just like men!
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I never felt this personally or noticed it as an issue with friends. Strong and lean has always been admired. So has tall dark and handsome. I dont know if there is some overwhelming pressure to fit into those categories though. One guy might think you have to have a fast sports car to be attractive. Another might think you have to have a lifted truck. Then another thinks you have to be strong as an ox and another thinks you have to be a chiseled Greek statue.
Men seem to be really all over the board as to what their ideals of attractiveness are.
It seems like there is an element that wants to tell you you are being manipulated if you want to look a certain way. Usually by people that dont have that as a goal. They want to paint you as egomaniac one minute or a victim the next. Its weird.0
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