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Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry - I missed your reply! Thank you so much for your considered thoughts!stroutman81 wrote: »
1. I'd want to know exactly what injuries are present and what specific contraindications are in place. Generally 1 or 2 injuries don't negate all heavy lifting. Sometimes... but generally not.
RSI in right wrist/forearm, patellofemoral syndrome, mild osteoarthritis (knees, hips, toes), and chronic tendinosis in left ankle (that one's not going away ever). I can do matwork, bodyweight squats and bridges, weighted leg curls, and glute kickbacks on the cable machine. I increase reps/sets and load (if applicable), and vary tempo to create challenges, but progress is limited. I've been mostly focusing on form.
I also do rehab with my physio, who's approved the above, and suggests I can do most things as long as there's no pain.
The wrist/forearm is annoying - it had healed and woke up again after carrying groceries. It's ok for some things but surprises me too (like tonight, when I tried to do some gentle rowing and had to stop after ten minutes).stroutman81 wrote: »
2. In terms of cutting vs. gaining... you don't want to focus on gaining muscle when your body fat is already high. Generally speaking, you wan to start muscle gain phases from a lean body comp. The reason's simple...
Muscle gain requires a calorie surplus, right? Well... the higher your body fat %, the more fat you'll gain while rocking a surplus. So it makes the most sense to get lean first and then, only after, ease into a surplus. It should be such that you're providing your body sufficient calories to facilitate the energy intensive process of muscle growth but no so much to where you're outpacing your bodies ability to built muscle and thus having the excess spill over to fat.
This makes sense. I have to say, though - I lost over 50 lbs four years ago (maintained until slight regain last year due to injuries - back then I also had tendonitis in my rotator cuff), and wasn't thrilled with the results at the end of it. I'd mostly been doing metabolic stuff and cardio. I estimated (using calculators, measurements, calipers, pictures) that my body fat percentage was in the low 20s, but it didn't look how I'd anticipated it would look, if you get what I mean.
Some have advised recomping - would that make sense, given that I'm limited in terms of progressive resistance?stroutman81 wrote: »
3. What builds muscle during a surplus or preserves muscle during a deficit depends a lot of training experience. If someone comes to me with a decade of progressive resistance training under their belt, being confined to what amounts to "cardio with weights" is likely not going to be conducive to muscle growth or preservation. But if someone comes to me with very little experience, their muscles are more sensitive - they're less discriminatory toward the type and amount of stimulus for growth/preservation.
So yeah, this is another wrinkle of context that's going to influence things, too.
Got it. Yeah, basically I did bodyweight and weighted metabolic workouts (like the Men's Health Spartacus one) and cardio. I finally started lifting heavy just before my injuries last year. I had about six solid months of lifting, and then a few months here and there. My PB for deadlifts was #185 for 10.
(I don't know if you literally wanted the above information or not, but I didn't want to not answer; but please don't feel obliged to respond again. I do appreciate what you've already said!)0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Ok one more question, when you are doing 45-90 min at a heart rate of 145ish, which based on your profile age is about 70-75% of theoretical max, do you feel like you are doing anything? Because I don't. I could do that for several hours before feeling it esp if we are talking about walking with a load or jogging. I tend to like to have my hr around 160-170 to feel like I am doing something. So is the idea of this lower intensity training to do it more often/ daily? Or should I do it and it will benefit me even if it doesn't feel like "real" exercise?
Your perceptions and the language of your body aren't necessarily on the same page. I see people, day in and out, doing the equivalent of punching their bodies in the face. They think it's best to jackhammer their body into submission with excessive intense exercise all because if "feels" best.
Building performance is a game of specificity and finesse. Don't get me wrong, there are times and place to really push it.
But cardiac output training is meant to be easy. It's low intensity. Going too high on the intensity continuum negates the adaptations we're trying to have happen. Namely, we want hypertrophy of the heart's chambers (namely left ventricular eccentric hypertrophy). This, in turn, will increase the amount of blood your heart can pump and thus increase the amount of oxygen being delivered to your muscles each beat and each minute. More oxygen = better recovery between intense bouts of anaerobic work.
Go too high in intensity and you don't allow your left ventricle to fill completely and thus you miss the specific stimulus we're shooting for.
Wow. Clearly I need to better educate myself on exercise physiology. Goes off to read....thanks so much!
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stroutman81 wrote: »Wonderful thread - thank you. So much useful information.
My question - if you've time - is it realistic to get back to the weight you were in your 20s? I'm 42 yrs old, 5ft 0 and now 133lb. I lost 43 lbs already, but I want to be 116lb. Everyone at my slimming group, and my family, is telling me I won't be able to do it, and to stop being so unrealistic. They also say I'll look awful as my face will "fall in". What are your thoughts on realistic goals? my waist measurement at 133lb is 34 inches and I remember at 116 lb it was 25 inches - which is where I want it. Thank you.
I think a couple of things...
1) People will always say things like this. Ignore them.
2) Chasing a particular weight is silly. Forget about it.
3) Focus on the process - leading a fit lifestyle. The cards will fall where they fall. Base your decisions and behaviors on where you are today. Not where you were 20 years ago. Your body is different now.
4) You can always drop weight. So yes, theoretically it's possible to get to your coveted 116 lbs. But as I said above, I'd forget about it. If it happens, let it happen because it makes sense as you navigate down your journey.
Thank you so very much - that is a very encouraging and wise answer. I very much appreciate it. I will carry on enjoying my tennis and this year take up lifting, continue at a slight deficit, and see where it takes me. And try to relax about the 116. It's lovely to get such expert help.
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This thread is amazing. I check in every morning and learn a little more and think "wow, that makes it so clear" - usually with a metaphorical face-palm :-)0
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Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry - I missed your reply! Thank you so much for your considered thoughts!
No worries... I've been worried about missing posts too.RSI in right wrist/forearm, patellofemoral syndrome, mild osteoarthritis (knees, hips, toes), and chronic tendinosis in left ankle (that one's not going away ever). I can do matwork, bodyweight squats and bridges, weighted leg curls, and glute kickbacks on the cable machine. I increase reps/sets and load (if applicable), and vary tempo to create challenges, but progress is limited. I've been mostly focusing on form.
I also do rehab with my physio, who's approved the above, and suggests I can do most things as long as there's no pain.
The wrist/forearm is annoying - it had healed and woke up again after carrying groceries. It's ok for some things but surprises me too (like tonight, when I tried to do some gentle rowing and had to stop after ten minutes).
Definitely some annoying stuff you're dealing with there. That's a bummer. I am glad, though, to hear that you're working with a physio. Hopefully you make some headway at, in the very least, ridding yourself of some of the pain.
I won't throw any exercise advice your way. It'd be beyond my scope and I'd be doing your physio a disservice. I'll say this, though. Take what you're permitted to do (in terms of exercise selection, intensity, and volume) and use it a few times per week. At a minimum, provide what stimulus you're permitted to provide in order to offer your body as much incentive as possible to hold onto muscle.
And in your case, you're going to want to ensure adequate protein intake more than regularly exercising folks. Strength training is our strongest stimulus for muscle preservation while dieting. If it's limited, we really need to focus on the second strongest stimulus, which is protein. Having lots of pool of excess amino acids in the bloodstream will provide a source for your body to preferentially tap into rather than turning to your muscle.This makes sense. I have to say, though - I lost over 50 lbs four years ago (maintained until slight regain last year due to injuries - back then I also had tendonitis in my rotator cuff), and wasn't thrilled with the results at the end of it. I'd mostly been doing metabolic stuff and cardio. I estimated (using calculators, measurements, calipers, pictures) that my body fat percentage was in the low 20s, but it didn't look how I'd anticipated it would look, if you get what I mean.
Some have advised recomping - would that make sense, given that I'm limited in terms of progressive resistance?
The idea being to build a bigger base of muscle so that the next time you cut down there's better likelihood of "looking the bf%"?
Is that what you're getting at?
If so, I'd say no. If you were working with me, I would not have you do any sort of muscle gain phase without first getting relatively lean again. I just don't see a point in it since the physiology still stands - higher bf% will lead to great rate of fat gain while in a surplus.Got it. Yeah, basically I did bodyweight and weighted metabolic workouts (like the Men's Health Spartacus one) and cardio. I finally started lifting heavy just before my injuries last year. I had about six solid months of lifting, and then a few months here and there. My PB for deadlifts was #185 for 10.
Total bummer, assuming you enjoyed heavy lifting.0 -
Wow. Clearly I need to better educate myself on exercise physiology. Goes off to read....thanks so much!
Training for physique optimization, while not without its nuances, is much simpler to understand than is training for performance optimization. Thankfully there are a lot of great resources out there and you can start with the book I mentioned above.
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stroutman81 wrote: »Wow. Clearly I need to better educate myself on exercise physiology. Goes off to read....thanks so much!
Training for physique optimization, while not without its nuances, is much simpler to understand than is training for performance optimization. Thankfully there are a lot of great resources out there and you can start with the book I mentioned above.
Well and that's where I got completely bogged down. The physique info is just so accessible.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Wonderful thread - thank you. So much useful information.
My question - if you've time - is it realistic to get back to the weight you were in your 20s? I'm 42 yrs old, 5ft 0 and now 133lb. I lost 43 lbs already, but I want to be 116lb. Everyone at my slimming group, and my family, is telling me I won't be able to do it, and to stop being so unrealistic. They also say I'll look awful as my face will "fall in". What are your thoughts on realistic goals? my waist measurement at 133lb is 34 inches and I remember at 116 lb it was 25 inches - which is where I want it. Thank you.
I think a couple of things...
1) People will always say things like this. Ignore them.
2) Chasing a particular weight is silly. Forget about it.
3) Focus on the process - leading a fit lifestyle. The cards will fall where they fall. Base your decisions and behaviors on where you are today. Not where you were 20 years ago. Your body is different now.
4) You can always drop weight. So yes, theoretically it's possible to get to your coveted 116 lbs. But as I said above, I'd forget about it. If it happens, let it happen because it makes sense as you navigate down your journey.
Thank you so very much - that is a very encouraging and wise answer. I very much appreciate it. I will carry on enjoying my tennis and this year take up lifting, continue at a slight deficit, and see where it takes me. And try to relax about the 116. It's lovely to get such expert help.
Slight deficit, some conditioning that you enjoy (tennis) and progressive strength training sounds like the perfect plan to me. I'd add to it a bunch of objectivity, awareness, patience, and flexibility.
Objectivity allows you to assess where you're at and how you're responding to what you're throwing at your body
Awareness keeps you in the present rather than fretting over the future. The future is out of your control. The present dictates, in large part, what your future will likely look like. Put differently, you really only have control of the 6 inches in front of your face, so place your energy there.
Patience allows you to maintain sanity and keep realistic expectations. This is a slow process. Heck, it's a forever process. So it's important to learn to sit back and let your body progress at its pace and to have self-compassion. It's not a linear process... sometimes you'll make great headway. Other times it'll seem like nothing's happening. The "secret" to success is to embrace when things are happening and accept when things are not without over reacting and going off the deep end.
Flexibility is so dang important. Many people get hung up on specific programs or ways of eating. They hold onto their beliefs about exercise and nutrition the same way religious zealots overbearingly argue their points of view. But the thing is... there are no one-size-fits-all programs and diets. What's ideal for you today likely won't be ideal for you 6 months from now. This is rooted in a process of trial and error in order to flesh out a "best fit" program for you. Heck, I've been doing this a long time and with all of my online coaching clients, this is something I stress to them at the very get go. Even though I have a good idea where you should be starting... it's still a process that involves some educated guess work on my part... to which I will respond flexibly and logically as their bodies tell us what they do and do not "like."0 -
When in a re-comp, what is the recommended deficit? Additionally, after being in one for about 6 months and knowing that it's a slow process, how many years are we talking here?0
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Always great input, just saying.0
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I really enjoy the info that you share with us. Thanks for taking the time to answer.0
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I just want to say thank you, I have been following this thread closely and moved on to your blog too. Being able to hear from people like you, and gradually arm myself with the knowledge I need to go from starting state to my optimal body, is the main reason I love this forum. Thank you!0
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amandarunning wrote: »This thread is amazing. I check in every morning and learn a little more and think "wow, that makes it so clear" - usually with a metaphorical face-palm :-)
Well thanks, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'm enjoying the conversation myself. Thanks to everyone who has participated. I'll keep checking in as long as there are questions.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Wow. Clearly I need to better educate myself on exercise physiology. Goes off to read....thanks so much!
Training for physique optimization, while not without its nuances, is much simpler to understand than is training for performance optimization. Thankfully there are a lot of great resources out there and you can start with the book I mentioned above.
Well and that's where I got completely bogged down. The physique info is just so accessible.
There are a lot more people interested in looking great naked than there are people interested in maximizing performance. So the gurus follow the money. Partly why this industry is so fubar.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »Wonderful thread - thank you. So much useful information.
My question - if you've time - is it realistic to get back to the weight you were in your 20s? I'm 42 yrs old, 5ft 0 and now 133lb. I lost 43 lbs already, but I want to be 116lb. Everyone at my slimming group, and my family, is telling me I won't be able to do it, and to stop being so unrealistic. They also say I'll look awful as my face will "fall in". What are your thoughts on realistic goals? my waist measurement at 133lb is 34 inches and I remember at 116 lb it was 25 inches - which is where I want it. Thank you.
I think a couple of things...
1) People will always say things like this. Ignore them.
2) Chasing a particular weight is silly. Forget about it.
3) Focus on the process - leading a fit lifestyle. The cards will fall where they fall. Base your decisions and behaviors on where you are today. Not where you were 20 years ago. Your body is different now.
4) You can always drop weight. So yes, theoretically it's possible to get to your coveted 116 lbs. But as I said above, I'd forget about it. If it happens, let it happen because it makes sense as you navigate down your journey.
Thank you so very much - that is a very encouraging and wise answer. I very much appreciate it. I will carry on enjoying my tennis and this year take up lifting, continue at a slight deficit, and see where it takes me. And try to relax about the 116. It's lovely to get such expert help.
Slight deficit, some conditioning that you enjoy (tennis) and progressive strength training sounds like the perfect plan to me. I'd add to it a bunch of objectivity, awareness, patience, and flexibility.
Objectivity allows you to assess where you're at and how you're responding to what you're throwing at your body
Awareness keeps you in the present rather than fretting over the future. The future is out of your control. The present dictates, in large part, what your future will likely look like. Put differently, you really only have control of the 6 inches in front of your face, so place your energy there.
Patience allows you to maintain sanity and keep realistic expectations. This is a slow process. Heck, it's a forever process. So it's important to learn to sit back and let your body progress at its pace and to have self-compassion. It's not a linear process... sometimes you'll make great headway. Other times it'll seem like nothing's happening. The "secret" to success is to embrace when things are happening and accept when things are not without over reacting and going off the deep end.
Flexibility is so dang important. Many people get hung up on specific programs or ways of eating. They hold onto their beliefs about exercise and nutrition the same way religious zealots overbearingly argue their points of view. But the thing is... there are no one-size-fits-all programs and diets. What's ideal for you today likely won't be ideal for you 6 months from now. This is rooted in a process of trial and error in order to flesh out a "best fit" program for you. Heck, I've been doing this a long time and with all of my online coaching clients, this is something I stress to them at the very get go. Even though I have a good idea where you should be starting... it's still a process that involves some educated guess work on my part... to which I will respond flexibly and logically as their bodies tell us what they do and do not "like."
Wow - that's great, thank you. It really helps to read you saying it's a process of trial and error - educated guess work. That explains why sometimes I feel I'm doing my utmost and the scales aren't shifting down, and sometimes I'm so hungry I go way over my allotted calories and still lose. I guess MFP doesn't really know how sedentary you've been, how many cals you've needed that day, and how many cals the 2 hours of tennis used. I'll bear that in mind, and try and have more patience and flexibility.
I also love:
"you really only have control of the 6 inches in front of your face, so place your energy there."
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stroutman81 wrote: »There are a lot more people interested in looking great naked than there are people interested in maximizing performance. So the gurus follow the money. Partly why this industry is so fubar.
Okay but don't they realize there is SO little point looking good naked if performance is missing.
(someone is going to flag this as inappropriate aren't they?)0 -
Liftng4Lis wrote: »When in a re-comp, what is the recommended deficit? Additionally, after being in one for about 6 months and knowing that it's a slow process, how many years are we talking here?
It needn't be years. Heck, I've lost 20 lbs in the last 3 months and totally overhauled my own physique. But I'm also internally motivated, don't have emotional/relationship issues with food, and am willing to put the work in daily. I'm also "light on my feet" when it comes to nutritional indiscretions. Meaning, I might eat a meal out that totally doesn't align with the plan for the day... but that meal is in isolation. It doesn't leak over to the next meal and the next. It doesn't cause guilt or grief. It just is, so I accept and enjoy it and then move on.
In many cases, I like for large folks to lose roughly 1% of their body weight per week... on average. And for smaller folks, that rate tends to drop closer to .5% per week. Don't get me wrong... there are cases where we accelerate this process. And there are cases where we have to actually accept a slower rate.
Of course, the more you have to lose, the longer it takes... but that's obvious.
So the recommended deficit? Slight to moderate, in general. The one that leads to the aforementioned rate of weight loss... keeping in mind there are a bunch of caveats to that.
I'd ask you, in return... what has your average rate of loss been over the last 6 months?0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Psulemon, Thx for letting me know about this thread!!!
Awesome thread!!!
Now for my turn for a question and hopefully a answer
I am 5.2 ft and was 115 lbs in 2013 and maintained my weight all year, was close to goal. My goal was to get to 20% bf. I did Chalean extreme and t25 all year. Come 2014 I thought I needed a switch and decided I wanted more definition. So switch up my program. Come July I didn't change at all, so I paid to get my numbers done and go kinda iifym style. I was suggested to go to maintance as I had been in a deficit for 2.5 years and I wouldn't get more definition as I needed more cals to get more definition. So I went from 14-1600 cals on average to 1700 daily. I was ok with those numbers as long as I lifted 6 days a week. Come oct I was sick and wasn't exercising as consistently. I didn't adjust my cals and of course I gained. Went to 122 lbs. I gained bdy fat and inches and a clothing size. I need to get back down. I am doing 1450-1500 now. Doing combat and pump. Never did fast reps like in pump before. Am I making a good choice doing pump instead of Chalean extreme? 5 lbs does t seem like a lot but me it is and I justvwant to feel comfortable again iny clothes! Will i reduce my body fat doing it this way or am I better off doing maintance like I was suggested? I'm probably around 24% bf now? I had a goal of mid March for our beach vacation but don't know if that is realistic?
Wait. So people are charging for macro recommendations nowadays? Sheesh, I really need to put my guru hat on more often... smh.
Secondly, my apologies, but I don't stay abreast of all these fancy prepackaged workouts. They're just not my cup of tea. I can't tell you if one is better than the other for your goals. But I can tell you that I agree with the recommendation to go up to maintenance for a bit if you were really dieting for 2.5 yrs straight.
It sounds like you were at maintenance or above for a month, at least... maybe more.
If that's the case, I'd say you're good to head back into deficit territory. It's this side of things - the nutrition - that's going to be the primary driver of fat loss. Your current calorie target of 1450 or so is just about right as a starting point. It's toward the high end of things... so test it out. If it's yielding sufficient results... let it ride. What are sufficient results? Maybe .5% of your body weight per week on average.
And please understand that the exercise side of the coin should primarily be tailored for muscle maintenance. Let your nutrition handle the fat loss / calorie deficit side of the things. Tailor exercise to hold onto the "good stuff" as your diet takes the soft stuff off.
Thx u! I do these tailor made programs because for me I have to follow something or I'm lost. I have to be told what to do. Lol... I can't just grab my weights and know what to do on what day even following a page layout with a description. I don't know what that is but I fail miserably so that is why I do DVDs. If it keeps me moving that is all that matters....
I will stick to these cals, it's been 2 weeks so far with no changes in the scale yet. I normally do once a month weigh in and next Sunday will be a official weigh in for feb but as of yesterday I still just bounce up and down a lb. no real loss yet. I thought at first I was actually gaining muscle so let it go but after a few months I realized it was only fat:(
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Okay, this thread is awesome! As a fairly lean woman trying to get leaner, this puts soooo much in perspective. I feel not-so-alone, and also realize I need to carefully evaluate my goals, as I likely fall I to the "abs may not show til you turn into a skeleton" category. Bumping to read later In its entirety!0
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Thanks for a great post. I always hear that we need to increase our weights progressively
. Am I wasting my time with my 20kg dumbells. Am interested in getting leaner so starting to tighten up my logging which has been an issue. Just thinking what I can do with my limited weights at home.0
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