Moderation vs Clean Eating
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SconnieCat wrote: »SconnieCat wrote: »deannaxsmithx wrote: »thank you everyone for your input.
I am new to this app and I just found the search feature today lol
I apologize if I offended anyone. by moderation I didn't mean eating fast food and drinking soda everyday.
I don't like the labels "clean" and "junk" either but a lot of people outside of MFP use those terms often. I was unaware that labeling food could offend anyone, so I apologize
I was also unaware that there are multiple threads about this topic. I didn't feel like scrolling through the boards trying to find something relating to my question, so I decided to post my own thread. again I apologize if this offends anyone, I'll be sure to use the search feature more often
Welcome to the boards
You'll find that on any given topic, while the majority of people are supportive, you'll always have those sassypants bossyfaces who can be a bit snippy. Myself included
I don't think the intention is to ever insult or malign, rather, to give some advice. The delivery isn't always the best, but typically people come from a good place.
A few things that can get people's panties in a bunch:
the term "cleanse"
the term "detox"
"Clean Eating" (as you recently discovered)
"1200 calorie diets"
Any specific diet that removes an entire food group (unless for medical purposes)
I'm sure there are some I've missed, but I'm still laughing over the photo wolfman posted. Other people can feel free to add to my list or tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about.
And sugar. Don't say the word sugar unless you use the word diabetic within a dozen words of it
Oooooo! Sugar! And Added Sugars!
i.e. "I'm trying to limit sugar. It's the only way I can do this as I'm completely, and totally addicted to sugar. Especially added sugars. Halpz"
I cringe every time I see a sugar thread. I assume they all become dumpster fires by page 3.
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diannethegeek wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »DawnieB1977 wrote: »(is a homemade cake considered 'clean'??).
I've always assumed no, at least not if it contains flour and sugar. But it is confusing!
I started a list once of all the definitions of clean eating that we've seen on the boards. By some you can get away with homemade cake and by others it's a definite no-no.
If you're curious, they include:
Nothing but minimally processed foods.
Absolutely no processed foods.
Shop only the outside of the grocery store.
Nothing out of a box, jar, or can.
Only food that's not in a box or hermetically sealed bag, or from e.g. McDonald's.
Nothing at all with a barcode.
Nothing with more than 5 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 4 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 3 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 1 ingredient.
No added preservatives.
No added chemicals.
No chemicals, preservatives, etc. at all.
No ingredients that you can't pronounce.
No ingredients that sound like they came out of a chemistry book.
Don't eat products that have a TV commercial.
Don't eat products that have a longer shelf life than you do.
No added sugar.
No added refined sugar.
Swap white sugar for brown.
No "white" foods.
Nothing but lean meats, fruits, and vegetables.
Only meat from grass-fed animals and free-range chickens.
Only pesticide-free foods.
This list is a really fine piece of work. It should be posted every time a "clean eating" discussion comes up. It's remarkable to see how inherently contradicting some of these definitions are. I'd love to see someone list foods that meet all of these definitions. Especially because many fruits and vegetables are now advertised.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »FYI, most people who practice moderation eat primarily nutritious foods...they're just not afraid to have some desert or a slice or two of pizza every once in awhile.
...
This. right here. I eat everything in moderation, but my diet primarily consists of nutritious foods. I just love a slice of pizza, piece of chocolate or slice of cake once in a while and I'm not afraid to work them into my calorie allotment.0 -
Moderation, I think a lot of people that just eat clean eat way too much to lose weight. Even eating clean would have to be in moderation.0
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Once upon a time when I was on a mission to lose around 16 kilos I was really into healthy/clean/no-sweets-fat-etc and whenever I broke the "code" I would get really mad at myself and then break it even further which led to many fluctuations and disturbances in my weight loss journey.
Now I'm taking a different approach - I can eat whatever I want as long as I'm under a daily calorie goal. I'm not too long in this, but I think it's a better approach. There is no need for will power, I don't have to force myself or ban any food, as long as I know how many calories it has. BUT, I have only just started out, so we'll see.
There's a long road in front of me.0 -
diannethegeek wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »DawnieB1977 wrote: »(is a homemade cake considered 'clean'??).
I've always assumed no, at least not if it contains flour and sugar. But it is confusing!
I started a list once of all the definitions of clean eating that we've seen on the boards. By some you can get away with homemade cake and by others it's a definite no-no.
If you're curious, they include:
Nothing but minimally processed foods.
Absolutely no processed foods.
Shop only the outside of the grocery store.
Nothing out of a box, jar, or can.
Only food that's not in a box or hermetically sealed bag, or from e.g. McDonald's.
Nothing at all with a barcode.
Nothing with more than 5 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 4 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 3 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 1 ingredient.
No added preservatives.
No added chemicals.
No chemicals, preservatives, etc. at all.
No ingredients that you can't pronounce.
No ingredients that sound like they came out of a chemistry book.
Don't eat products that have a TV commercial.
Don't eat products that have a longer shelf life than you do.
No added sugar.
No added refined sugar.
Swap white sugar for brown.
No "white" foods.
Nothing but lean meats, fruits, and vegetables.
Only meat from grass-fed animals and free-range chickens.
Only pesticide-free foods.
This is fabulous! Thanks for being an excellent record-keeper.0 -
Once upon a time when I was on a mission to lose around 16 kilos I was really into healthy/clean/no-sweets-fat-etc and whenever I broke the "code" I would get really mad at myself and then break it even further which led to many fluctuations and disturbances in my weight loss journey.
Now I'm taking a different approach - I can eat whatever I want as long as I'm under a daily calorie goal. I'm not too long in this, but I think it's a better approach. There is no need for will power, I don't have to force myself or ban any food, as long as I know how many calories it has. BUT, I have only just started out, so we'll see.
There's a long road in front of me.
Personally, I think you are following a healthy approach. Weigh and log everything, be kind to yourself, and understand that weight loss is not linear. Good luck to you. 0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MrCoolGrim wrote: »Don't you still have to eat in moderation if your trying to eat clean?
I would say yes, but several people have told me on here that if you eat clean (according to their definition), it doesn't matter how much you eat.
From what I understand, WW is pushing that, and made all produce an AYCE category.
Whoever created that guideline has never seen what happens when I am in the same room with fresh pineapple. I could easily eat 2,000 calories of pineapple in a sitting.
I just got back from Hawaii. The amount of calories I can eat in tropical fruit in general is really quite staggering.
I also think it's kind of funny that I brought Brussels sprouts from home to add to my purchased lunch today, and then decided I would purchase some chocolate too. The Brussels were only 60 calories less than the chocolate. (The ingredients of the chocolate weren't much different than something home-cooked, IMO, but I'm assuming the colorful wrapping it came in means it's absolutely filthy anyway, whichever definition we use.)0 -
I found that you can actually eat a ton more food if they are "high in nutrition" verses ones that are not. However, it is possible to lose weight either way though as long as you stay to your calorie goals. I personally have come to realize that some foods are just too tempting for me to buy and store in my home. Things like candy and cookies seem to break my will power so I don't have them very often. However, other treats made with fruit or even cake I can control myself and limit my intake. I guess it is one of those things you figure out as you are dieting if you can truly moderate sweet/savory foods.0
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I eat clean- only because I have to. My med conditions say I have to. Moderation will not work for me on carbs- I have a limit and I have to stick to it or I gain for carbs.... and I LOVE bread, potatoes, pizza and all those yummy goodnesses! But to the OP I think it just depends on the individual- people have to find what works for them and what they can live with.... there is no "right" answer0
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So clean means no carbs?!I eat clean- only because I have to. My med conditions say I have to. Moderation will not work for me on carbs- I have a limit and I have to stick to it or I gain for carbs.... and I LOVE bread, potatoes, pizza and all those yummy goodnesses! But to the OP I think it just depends on the individual- people have to find what works for them and what they can live with.... there is no "right" answer
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lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MrCoolGrim wrote: »Don't you still have to eat in moderation if your trying to eat clean?
I would say yes, but several people have told me on here that if you eat clean (according to their definition), it doesn't matter how much you eat.
From what I understand, WW is pushing that, and made all produce an AYCE category.
Whoever created that guideline has never seen what happens when I am in the same room with fresh pineapple. I could easily eat 2,000 calories of pineapple in a sitting.
I just got back from Hawaii. The amount of calories I can eat in tropical fruit in general is really quite staggering.
I also think it's kind of funny that I brought Brussels sprouts from home to add to my purchased lunch today, and then decided I would purchase some chocolate too. The Brussels were only 60 calories less than the chocolate. (The ingredients of the chocolate weren't much different than something home-cooked, IMO, but I'm assuming the colorful wrapping it came in means it's absolutely filthy anyway, whichever definition we use.)
Brussels sprouts! My other love . . .0 -
deannaxsmithx wrote: »are you more successful with your weight loss when eating foods in moderation or eating strictly healthy foods?
moderation in this case meaning eating whatever you'd like as long as it's within your calorie goal. following serving sizes. weighing your food.
clean eating meaning eating only healthy foods such as fruits, vegetables, lean meats, organic products, etc
One is for weight loss ( moderation if it means caloric deficit ) and the other is for overall /general health.
I have eaten a natural diet all my life and still gained weight, because I ate too much of it.
I started to eat the same things at a deficit and lost 55 pounds.
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So clean means no carbs?!I eat clean- only because I have to. My med conditions say I have to. Moderation will not work for me on carbs- I have a limit and I have to stick to it or I gain for carbs.... and I LOVE bread, potatoes, pizza and all those yummy goodnesses! But to the OP I think it just depends on the individual- people have to find what works for them and what they can live with.... there is no "right" answer
For me it does, because of my PCOS and Hypothyroidism, it has to. I also never said NO CARBS, I said I have a LIMIT, also as I said towards the end of my post- it depends on the individual
Try reading the whole thing next time before you reply or quote0 -
deannaxsmithx wrote: »moderation in this case meaning eating whatever you'd like as long as it's within your calorie goal. following serving sizes. weighing your food.
This is really not what moderation means. And assuming it does mean that is the primary mistake that a lot of people arguing against moderation make.
Moderation means ... being moderate. That means more than just counting calories but going hog wild otherwise. As others have said, moderation generally means something like 80/20: eating primarily whole foods like vegetables and fruit and smart protein and whole grains but fitting small, or occasional, or otherwise reasonable portions of treaty foods into the overall plan, whether those foods are bacon or cupcakes or bacon cupcakes. Oh, and being sufficiently aware of the macro and micro values of those treaty foods to keep the overall nutritional profile of one's diet from going nutso.
What you're describing is more like IIFYM. Many people who practice IIFYM also practice moderation, but they're not the same thing at all.0 -
I found that you can actually eat a ton more food if they are "high in nutrition" verses ones that are not.
But just to be clear, I don't think clean vs. moderation means "eat foods high in nutrition" vs. not.
Usually "clean" seems to be about processing, and to use a good example, a whole chicken would seem more "clean" to me than a skinless, boneless breast, and yet the whole chicken means eating parts that have a lot more fat (including fat that some will say is very bad for you, although I don't happen to agree) and more calories than the skinless breast. (For the record, I continue to prefer the whole chicken--one of the things I have not rejected from my "all natural" days, although I was still being silly.)
Similarly, full fat dairy is less processed than skim milk or, say, skim Greek yogurt, and yet the skim has more protein and fewer calories. I'm a milk agnostic (I think all kinds of milk are fine and like almost all dairy products), but it would be nutty to claim that you can eat lots more full fat milk or that you'd not get decent nutrition from skim vs. cream (although I'm not anti cream).
I can see preferring to get protein from whole foods vs. powders or bars, but if one is a vegetarian (or otherwise) I can certainly see an argument that the protein in a powder helps with protein needs and thus counts as "high in nutrition," despite being processed.
And to pick one of my favorite examples, smoked salmon is processed (and generally contains a little of the dreaded sugar due to the processing) and yet I think it's high in nutrients and makes a lovely addition to breakfast (or some pasta, perhaps--also processed, natch).
So why are all these apparent deviations from "clean eating" supposedly not high in nutrition or not helpful to a weight loss plan for anyone?0 -
(Covered already. Never mind!)0
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janejellyroll wrote: »MrCoolGrim wrote: »Don't you still have to eat in moderation if your trying to eat clean?
I would say yes, but several people have told me on here that if you eat clean (according to their definition), it doesn't matter how much you eat.
Anyone who says that only shows that they have absolutely no idea how things work when it comes to nutrition, calories, metabolism or any of the most basic things that have to do with weight loss and health.
Of course one has to eat in moderation ( and for weight loss a deficit is necessary ) even if one eats the most natural diet in the world, because everything has calories and some natural foods have quite a lot ( oats, beans, chickpeas, sweet potatoes, brown rice, whole wheat pasta just to name a few ) .0 -
So clean means no carbs?!I eat clean- only because I have to. My med conditions say I have to. Moderation will not work for me on carbs- I have a limit and I have to stick to it or I gain for carbs.... and I LOVE bread, potatoes, pizza and all those yummy goodnesses! But to the OP I think it just depends on the individual- people have to find what works for them and what they can live with.... there is no "right" answer
For me it does, because of my PCOS and Hypothyroidism, it has to. I also never said NO CARBS, I said I have a LIMIT, also as I said towards the end of my post- it depends on the individual
Try reading the whole thing next time before you reply or quote
But what does that have to do with "clean eating"? Eating in a way defined by your own dietary needs is understandable (and commendable) of course, but I don't get why that makes it clean or not. I'm allergic to penicillin, does that make it unclean in my own definition?
I'm really not trying to be a jerk in these discussions but I don't understand why people insist on using a term that seems to mean nothing coherent and fails to communicate. If you mean you have to eat low carb, why not just say that? That makes total sense and is understandable. Saying you must eat clean for many would not exclude whole grain bread and would exclude plenty of non-carb foods.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
So clean means no carbs?!I eat clean- only because I have to. My med conditions say I have to. Moderation will not work for me on carbs- I have a limit and I have to stick to it or I gain for carbs.... and I LOVE bread, potatoes, pizza and all those yummy goodnesses! But to the OP I think it just depends on the individual- people have to find what works for them and what they can live with.... there is no "right" answer
For me it does, because of my PCOS and Hypothyroidism, it has to. I also never said NO CARBS, I said I have a LIMIT, also as I said towards the end of my post- it depends on the individual
Try reading the whole thing next time before you reply or quote
But what does that have to do with "clean eating"? Eating in a way defined by your own dietary needs is understandable (and commendable) of course, but I don't get why that makes it clean or not. I'm allergic to penicillin, does that make it unclean in my own definition?
Sure it can-- like I said before- I think the definition of "clean" or even "moderation" is on an individual basis, it is and can be different for everyone
for me- its low carb and trying to stick to whole foods (yes I am aware I didn't mention this in my original post)
but for you maybe your version of "clean" is no foods with antibiotics in them- because of your allergy
I am aware of the many definitions of "clean" ie- only whole foods, no added anything, etc, etc, etc
but again- I think it is different for everyone and certainly can be0 -
Also let me clarify that a bit- I wasn't saying that low carb eating is "clean" eating. I was saying that I eat clean and part of that includes eating low carb maybe I should have included no processed carbs.... idk,, but again I think it can and is on an individual basis as @lemurcat12 says- we can have our own inclusions for what "clean" means to us0
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Here's the key question (to repeat):
I don't understand why people insist on using a term that seems to mean nothing coherent and fails to communicate. If you mean you have to eat low carb, why not just say that? That makes total sense and is understandable. Saying you must eat clean for many would not exclude whole grain bread and would exclude plenty of non-carb foods.
To elaborate: calling food "unclean" is rather insulting. And no, it does not sound like it is meant individually, as a matter of mere taste, unclean to me and not to thee. It sounds like it's a statement of some more objective judgment (it fails on some important measure of quality). What is the perceived usefulness of a term that is so clearly misunderstood or used differently by everyone who uses it? What do you get out of saying you "eat clean"?
This is what I most want to understand from these discussions.
At the moment I'm inclined toward the hypothesis of Matt Fitzgerald in Diet Cults.0 -
Also let me clarify that a bit- I wasn't saying that low carb eating is "clean" eating. I was saying that I eat clean and part of that includes eating low carb maybe I should have included no processed carbs.... idk,, but again I think it can and is on an individual basis as @lemurcat12 says- we can have our own inclusions for what "clean" means to us
If everyone can have their own individual definition of "clean," how can it be a useful concept for weight loss and/or fitness?1 -
I've seen the term macros come up a lot here and other boards. Can someone explain that term to me please?
But to stay on topic I do "clean moderation". LOL0 -
Macros is short for macronutrients: protein, carbs, and fat.0
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So clean means no carbs?!I eat clean- only because I have to. My med conditions say I have to. Moderation will not work for me on carbs- I have a limit and I have to stick to it or I gain for carbs.... and I LOVE bread, potatoes, pizza and all those yummy goodnesses! But to the OP I think it just depends on the individual- people have to find what works for them and what they can live with.... there is no "right" answer
For me it does, because of my PCOS and Hypothyroidism, it has to. I also never said NO CARBS, I said I have a LIMIT, also as I said towards the end of my post- it depends on the individual
Try reading the whole thing next time before you reply or quote
I think the point being that "clean" is fairly arbitrary...it's pretty much a useless term. There was a laundry list post a page back that listed an *kitten* ton of "clean" definitions...I think they just wanted to add low carb to that arbitrary list.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Also let me clarify that a bit- I wasn't saying that low carb eating is "clean" eating. I was saying that I eat clean and part of that includes eating low carb maybe I should have included no processed carbs.... idk,, but again I think it can and is on an individual basis as @lemurcat12 says- we can have our own inclusions for what "clean" means to us
If everyone can have their own individual definition of "clean," how can it be a useful concept for weight loss and/or fitness?
It isn't.
Thank you! I agree! It isn't- its just how I choose to describe what I eat and what I choose to eat. Whether that fits into another's categorization of what it means- I could care less.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Ah....thanks! I'm going to start making a list for reference.
Try this:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1069278-acronyms-and-terms-for-new-mfp-members-v-6
You may find a better list. . .but I doubt it.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »FYI, most people who practice moderation eat primarily nutritious foods...they're just not afraid to have some desert or a slice or two of pizza every once in awhile.
"Clean" is a very ambiguous term and has about a zillion different meanings depending on the individual.
Do yourself a favor and just eat a well balanced and varied diet that is rich in whole food nutrition...and have some ice cream once in awhile.
This a thousand times! I've kept off 100 plus pounds for 7 or so years by using moderation. I do eat as clean as I can, trying to keep it healthy the majority of the time but Saturdays are my day off from not only logging but I eat what I want. I'm not afraid to eat pizza or really any food. I follow the everything in moderation rule and it has worked out well for me over the years
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