steroid use ...
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In my experience its common and not really tabboo, but more and more people seem to be of the opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits. Oh, and those risks are much higher in younger people. I think steroid use in under 25s is pretty reckless... In fully developed adults I guess sensible use is safe enough?0
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Try a USAPL meet, they don't even allow a TUE. So most of the lifters will be currently natural.
Drug tested does not mean drug free. It just means they aren't on a heavy dose at the time.
On a side not, the ipf (which usapl is under) has some *kitten* rules that I want nothing to do with that go beyond drug use.0 -
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
What ballpark cost does that even run in? I was thinking of checking an anti-aging center locally for hgh and thyroid discussion, but won't until I know what the ballpark figure is. My test-c is only $10 a month on my insurance.
I don't recall the exact price he told me but the price was out of any ball park and probably out of Yellowstone park, it was expensive. Put it this way, with insurance my out-of-pocket is $60/week and I just use HSA contributions to cover it.0 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »
However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Again I don't know why he got the surgery. Was it to fix his prescription or was it to gain an advantage.
It's been years since I've had it done but when I did it was not exactly an exact science at that time. They could not guarantee what my prescription would be when I was done. Or how long it would stay. It wasn't a matter of rolling in and walking out with 20/20 or 20/15 vision. And there were risks. It very well could have gone the other way.
Things may have improved since I've had it done but it wasn't something I would have considered would necessarily give someone an advantage.
Along the same lines of the eye surgery, would you consider a man with hypogonadism using TRT just to be normal cheating? I don't play sports anymore, but let's hypothetically say I play AAA baseball. When I was 33 my total Test was 202 and 198 (low / outside of healthy range low), so i began TRT. Now, my total Test averages between 670 and 680 between blood tests which is approximately 10 to 20 points above average for my age range. Is that cheating because I just want to have the appropriate level of health for my age? Is it different than corrective vision for somebody that plays a sport?0 -
High end anti-aging - including a variety steroids, hormones, EPO, office visits and whatnot - is generally around $1k/month.
(All legal.)
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which is why, as I mentioned, I said that most of the lifters will be currently au naturale.Shawshankcan wrote: »Try a USAPL meet, they don't even allow a TUE. So most of the lifters will be currently natural.
Drug tested does not mean drug free. It just means they aren't on a heavy dose at the time.
On a side not, the ipf (which usapl is under) has some *kitten* rules that I want nothing to do with that go beyond drug use.
Doesn't mean they're natty, just off cycle enough to have a reasonable belief that they won't be caught.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Again I don't know why he got the surgery. Was it to fix his prescription or was it to gain an advantage.
It's been years since I've had it done but when I did it was not exactly an exact science at that time. They could not guarantee what my prescription would be when I was done. Or how long it would stay. It wasn't a matter of rolling in and walking out with 20/20 or 20/15 vision. And there were risks. It very well could have gone the other way.
Things may have improved since I've had it done but it wasn't something I would have considered would necessarily give someone an advantage.
Along the same lines of the eye surgery, would you consider a man with hypogonadism using TRT just to be normal cheating? I don't play sports anymore, but let's hypothetically say I play AAA baseball. When I was 33 my total Test was 202 and 198 (low / outside of healthy range low), so i began TRT. Now, my total Test averages between 670 and 680 between blood tests which is approximately 10 to 20 points above average for my age range. Is that cheating because I just want to have the appropriate level of health for my age? Is it different than corrective vision for somebody that plays a sport?
I'm not really sure why you are directing that at me. My arguement was that the corrective surgery may not necessarily be cheating. So if it is similar to the treatment you are describing, I don't think I would consider that either. But I am not familiar with TRT and "normal" test levels (I"m gathering from previous posts in this thread that normal can be widely interpreted) so I can't really answer.
I have also acknowledged that there are grey areas.
I'm not sure how my "if you are doing something to gain a competitive edge, it's cheating" translates to "I just want to have the appropriate level of health for my age" is the same thing.0 -
... makes me feel a little better about my $20/quarter anti-wrinkle cream. TMI, but j/s ...0 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »
Okay so just a hypothetic. A receiver goes for a pass in the end zone. He totally beats the corner back and instead of giving up the winning touchdown, he grabs the receiver for a penalty. Obviously against the rules. The last play of the game ends up incomplete. Did the other team get cheated out of the win because of the penalty? Or was it great strategic play by the cornerback?3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I have no idea. I know nothing of football.
I am also aware that nothing is black and white. But I stand by my statement. As a general rule, as long as it is against the rules and people are subject to penalties for it it is cheating. Are there situations where lines are blurred. Yes. But for someone who is bending or breaking the rules to gain an advantage I consider it cheating.
I assume that is what you are getting at.
To answer ninerbuff, the game doesn’t end on a defensive penalty. The offense will get one more attempt. And yes, there are many games where rules can be broken and give you a competitive advantage. They do it in basketball in almost every game, the losing ten fouling to get the ball back with time on the clock. It has been accepted as strategy.
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This is all so helpful - thank you. Interesting role that the youtube vids, etc., are playing - my middle child (16) is working hard and very focused on weightlifting at the moment. We're very open with one another, and I am simply trying to be proactive. But it's not like he's face to face with a trainer (who I know) in our local gym ... he's listening to - whoever - on youtube. It makes me a little nervous - he's a full-steam-ahead (workout in the garage before school) kid, and he's seeing results quickly. I'm proud of him - not suspicious. Just cautious. I appreciate your comments.
A teenage boy is super juiced on natural steroids, so it would be more of a concern if he wouldn't be seeing results from working hard.0 -
sorry if it is already mentioned - too lazy to read all 6 pages so read page 1; but regarding steroid use being a taboo subject for BB - it is this way since it is the equivalent of saying a broker is giving out company information to special clients - they are simply shooting themselves in the foot; in the bodybuilding and fitness industry, the game at the end of the day is to earn money, by spilling the secrets to steroid use means cannibalizing supplementation companies who push out weight loss supplements etc when the real drug that has visual effects would be 10x more prominent using steroids - so what does this mean? The athletes would not get sponsored since they are telling everyone that the company's supplements do not actually work - now if anabolic steroids were legally available worldwide, the taboo subject would immediately take a massive turn and then those who do use steroids would speak out.
Youtube Bostin Loyd if you are interested and look at the comments on Youtube, he is technically the first younger generation to speak out on his cycle and transformation followed by his actual steroid stack when he is on the juice - you will see many people commenting on the respect to him for speaking out among the other BBs.0 -
Exactly. So breaking of the rules doesn't always mean cheating.AllanMisner wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
Okay so just a hypothetic. A receiver goes for a pass in the end zone. He totally beats the corner back and instead of giving up the winning touchdown, he grabs the receiver for a penalty. Obviously against the rules. The last play of the game ends up incomplete. Did the other team get cheated out of the win because of the penalty? Or was it great strategic play by the cornerback?3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I have no idea. I know nothing of football.
I am also aware that nothing is black and white. But I stand by my statement. As a general rule, as long as it is against the rules and people are subject to penalties for it it is cheating. Are there situations where lines are blurred. Yes. But for someone who is bending or breaking the rules to gain an advantage I consider it cheating.
I assume that is what you are getting at.
To answer ninerbuff, the game doesn’t end on a defensive penalty. The offense will get one more attempt. And yes, there are many games where rules can be broken and give you a competitive advantage. They do it in basketball in almost every game, the losing ten fouling to get the ball back with time on the clock. It has been accepted as strategy.
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Exactly. So breaking of the rules doesn't always mean cheating.AllanMisner wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
Okay so just a hypothetic. A receiver goes for a pass in the end zone. He totally beats the corner back and instead of giving up the winning touchdown, he grabs the receiver for a penalty. Obviously against the rules. The last play of the game ends up incomplete. Did the other team get cheated out of the win because of the penalty? Or was it great strategic play by the cornerback?3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have no idea. I know nothing of football.
I am also aware that nothing is black and white. But I stand by my statement. As a general rule, as long as it is against the rules and people are subject to penalties for it it is cheating. Are there situations where lines are blurred. Yes. But for someone who is bending or breaking the rules to gain an advantage I consider it cheating.
I assume that is what you are getting at.
To answer ninerbuff, the game doesn’t end on a defensive penalty. The offense will get one more attempt. And yes, there are many games where rules can be broken and give you a competitive advantage. They do it in basketball in almost every game, the losing ten fouling to get the ball back with time on the clock. It has been accepted as strategy.
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Ugh, congrats. I'm fairly certain I conceded the point there are grey areas days ago.
Does anyone get penalized for it like the do with doping?0 -
Steriods are obviously a ped and guaruntee 70% of nfl, nhl, mlb etc are on some sort of steroids. It's not right to be using any type of ped in a major sport because it's not fair to the athetes who don't use them, especially in baseball or cycling. If you want to be a young punk on steroids and slowly kill yourself over time, that's your choice. But own up to it. I've talked to and seen so many guys on steriods and they lie about it and say they're all natural. If your going to be on them, don't b.s about it. Cycling steriods isn't as bad as always being on them, but over all their nothing but a health risk and will shorten your life span. Case in point, look at all the pro wrestlers over the last 5-10 years dying of heart attacks from years of steroid abuse. Very sad but I guess you live your life the way you want to. It's no different from trying to tell a smoker after years of smoking to quit.0
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The risks of prolonged steroid use currently outweigh the benefits; however as science progresses I can easily see the day when this becomes both safe and effective. Aesthetics often drives research as people are willing to spend anything to make themselves look better, so whatever funding I get to spend researching life saving products are often funded by a product that is used (typically off-label) for some aesthetic procedure.
The duality in culture the height of stupidity and don't understand why using performance enhancers is acceptable in certain activities, but not in others.
Biking = bad
Baseball = bad
Wrestling = accepted
Academics = accepted0 -
Muscle-Tech works better, ha, point is, just another advertisement to take your money.Workoutsandiets wrote: »I think this legal stuff, it s a natural things, that have an anabolic effects http://www.workoutsandiets.com/crazybulk-legal-steroids-review/
My experience, i did use when i was about 18. I was still fat though. I just got "bigger" my strength went up big time. I remember I was lifting 65lbs dumbells for bench, went up to 105 within a month. I remember the first time i took some, i took another dosage a few hours later. My nose started to bleed. THrough the months, I didn't get the results i was expecting so i did my cycle longer, then my kidneys started to hurt.
You also need to take other stuff to counteract the side effects of steroids. Honestly for me they awhere a pain to use. THere is no doubt in my mind that high level athletes use. They have to. Lance Armstrong got busted, but i am sure through any sport the top guys use.
The real question is, "Why does someone want to use in the first place if they're not competing?" Obviously they want to build more muscle? Going deeper in to all this, ask why? Many do it for aesthetics, some want to "impress the ladies" other guys do it to be stronger. Who are you competing with yourself if you're not competing in actual sport? No one but yourself, you don't need anything for that.
The aesthetic issue, I was reading this book, it was buy that guy who works with brad pilon (forgot his name). He talked about his usage, and said he just wanted to get bigger, he did get bigger, but it wasn't enough, so he would keep on using, it's a vicious cycle. It's like it's never enough. He goes on about how we're chasing the wrong thing. Aesthetic is proportionality, symmetry. There are a ton of guys who are "muscular" but don't have that. Frankly they look like crap. They think the solution is to get bigger, but it's not. In his book he talks about the gold ratio, for the math people it's called the Fibonacci sequence. This ratio is found in nature, the most beatiful structures/(art work have this ratio), Michelangelo's David, the taj mahal has this ratio. This ratio can be found in tree,s the universe, pineapples, shell fish, even in our DNA.
If your goal is to look better, you can apply this ratio to your body to have that symmetry and aesthetics. If someone is over weight, i read this good article the other day on why you should cut first before bulking. In summary it says, you don't know what you really have under the fat, you might have everything you want. WHen you lean up you look bigger. I still have some body fat on me, a decent amount. Just yesterday people asked how much i weighed, i told them to guess, i got numbers like 200, 225, things like that. I am like "you're crazy I am 260" So in summary, i don't see a point of it for recreational use.
Very interesting. Cheers mate.0 -
what's a younger athlete? I didn't see them at all in high school, didn't play any college sports. Maybe I'm warped but most steroid users I know are middle aged men0
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What's sad in the USA is that congress illegalized them due to "athlete" use, to set and example for our youth and promised any pro using them would suffer by being imprisoned. I still haven't seen one prominent athlete who was busted using them going to jail. Who did go to jail? The average gym goer who used them to better themselves.
As I mentioned, they obviously work and the average person using them will likely not even use the dosages or stacks that professional body builders use.
My personal feeling on them is that even though I could use them, I'd fear that I'd never get off them once I start. I still am in contact with many of the guys I used to work out with back in the day and many of them who used are still using.
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so sounds like they've been using them 20 - 30 years, any reported side effects/draw backs?0 -
If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
what is it about current events and history that would make you fear being penalized for using it as an elite athlete?0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »In RE to your average Joe/Jane gym rat...fitness junkie type of person I would say that steroid use is for the most part non-existent...I'm sure there are some people that do it, but I would say the vast majority of fitness junkies are simply into fitness for the sake of health and fitness and the benefits of using would not be worth the costs...
It is a different story altogether when you're talking about athletes...and unfortunately some young aspiring athletes trying to break into the professional level of whatever their sport is. It seems that many of them will do just about anything to gain an edge...not to mention the benefits to recovery when you're putting in the kind of training volume those guys put in to even consider the possibility of going pro.
In that RE, I'm not talking about the high school football player or whatever...I don't know if it's an issue at that level...I'm talking about guys that are basically on the cusp of either going pro or hanging it up and discarding their dreams.
I disagree. it might be a relatively small percentage, but I think there's substantial subset of 'average' gym goes that do or have used PED0 -
Steroids don't have as bad as negative side-effects as most think, especially if used intelligently. Watch the documentary, "Bigger Faster Stronger" as it has some good insight.0
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