Ayurvedic nutrition for weight loss (and general sanity)
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Another term that irks me because it is so inaccurate is "Modern Medicine" or "Modern Western Medicine" because the precise term is Allopathic Medicine or BioMedical Medicine, which are the healing traditions we are accustomed to today and are about 100 years old.
No. Just no.
The term "Allopathic" medicine was coined by another woo-merchant (Samuel Hahnermann, the founder of homeopathy).The burden of proof IS also on those who adamantly claim that any alternative to allopathy does not work.
Nope. The burden of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making the positive claim, never the negative (see Russel's Teapot).
There have been several studies of these pseudoscientific modalities, and none have shown to be better than placebo. For example, sham acupuncture actually works better than real acupuncture in clinical trials.
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studies differ on this point, balance of evidence in this metaanalysis shows real > sham acupuncture for self reported lower back painFunkyTobias wrote: »Another term that irks me because it is so inaccurate is "Modern Medicine" or "Modern Western Medicine" because the precise term is Allopathic Medicine or BioMedical Medicine, which are the healing traditions we are accustomed to today and are about 100 years old.
No. Just no.
The term "Allopathic" medicine was coined by another woo-merchant (Samuel Hahnermann, the founder of homeopathy).The burden of proof IS also on those who adamantly claim that any alternative to allopathy does not work.
Nope. The burden of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making the positive claim, never the negative (see Russel's Teapot).
There have been several studies of these pseudoscientific modalities, and none have shown to be better than placebo. For example, sham acupuncture actually works better than real acupuncture in clinical trials.
http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/2013/11150/Effectiveness_of_Acupuncture_for_Nonspecific.20.aspx
electro-acupuncture, also, is a different thing fyi, especially for chronic pain. the theory is that in chronic pain, nerves are looping on nocioception (reading other sensations, like pressure, as pain). and, triggering nearby nerves, chemically. the idea is that shooting a current through there is like a tune-up. also thought to trigger endogenous pain relief mechanisms
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/24322588
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149291813010151
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A. Complementary, not complimentary. Although I'd agree it is more about complimentary than complementary.False!!!
I have issues with inaccurate terms like Alternative Medicine. It is the jargon we are accustomed to, but the word implies that it should be used in place of allopathic medicine, which is not the case. The intention of different healing modalities is to to support the patient's wellness and fill in the gaps that allopathy could not fill. Sometimes what is needed to do that is a different perspective (i.e. model for assessing the patient) or different therapies that do not exist in the allopathic model. A good allopathic doctor knows their limitations and when to refer out, as does a competent aryuvedic doctor know when to refer someone back to their biomedical doc. Unfortunately we've grown accustomed to the term "Alternative" medicine being thrown around. Complimentary Medicine is a much more accurate term. A great doctor continues their education and learns about Complimentary healing modalities. Different therepeutic modalities compliment one another, creating a complex of relationships in which the whole is much more than the sum of its parts. In light of the unique strengths and weaknesses offered by different traditions, including allopathic and biomedical, all medical modalities are complimentary.
Another term that irks me because it is so inaccurate is "Modern Medicine" or "Modern Western Medicine" because the precise term is Allopathic Medicine or BioMedical Medicine, which are the healing traditions we are accustomed to today and are about 100 years old. Traditional Chinese Medicine, Tibetan Medicine, Accupuncture, and Aryuveda are also "Modern Medicine" because although their inception was 1000's of years ago, they are not static and the methods have evolved and are still evolving as practitioners hone in their skills in the modern day. "Modern Western Medicine" includes the allopathic and biomedical traditions, but other medical traditions have also originated in the West including: osteopathy, western herbalism, psychotherapy and chiropractic. They may not be the status quo, but accusations against their validity is based on conjecture.
The burden of proof IS also on those who adamantly claim that any alternative to allopathy does not work. So far people on this thread have attempted to disprove aryuvedic therapies by citing a TV segment, biased personal websites, and graphic design fails. I'm curious why the person (@cwilso37) who is able to pick apart any study posted is okay with a TV show being a reference to a claim?
B. If you don't like the term Western Medicine, don't use it. I don't like you sticking western in there because modern medicine, as in evidence based medicine, has no geography. Scientific methods work the same for every country and person.
C. Accusations against the validity of traditions isn't based on conjecture. All the "traditions" you've listed, to some extent or another, reject the scientific method, and pretty much start with a non-scientific based theory.
D. The burden of proof is on Aryuvedic to show that it is effective. Otherwise, the standing position for medicine is, first, do no harm.
E. When you cite a properly done study about an herb used in Aryuvedic, that isn't proving Aryuvedic, that is proving chemistry and biology. I'm not sure you understand how a theory and central dogma work in philosophies of knowledge. It isn't just that some things in Aryuvedic are shown to work, they have to also show that the system is effective at determining what works. Aryuvedic will say some herbs work because they increase the air element in a person. That's patently false. When an herb is actually studied in a clinical trial, that's not Aryuvedic anymore - that's evidence based medicine.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Also, please read theses link. People who sought out ayurvedic treatment that did not end well.
http://whatstheharm.net/ayurvedicmedicine.html
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5326a3.htm
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/chopra.html
The links following the David Flint summary: One leads to a quack watch blog which doesn't even reference David Flint's story. I would really like to see the results of how the so called law suit went down. The second link, which was supposed to actually explain the story in detail was a dead link. Too bad, because that one gave me pause.
There is inherent risk with whatever you put into your body. I don't condone mineral or metal treatments and herbal remedies are risky if you don't know the source. Capsules can easily be adulterated. Herbal medicine preparations prepared ethically from the whole plant, such as teas and tinctures are generally safer and it is easier to ascertain quality. The people who came down with lead poisoning; who knows if they were self medicating with cheap supplements or they actually had a shoddy practitioner who gave them bad medicine. I could probably cite more instances of people being harmed/killed by poor care from conventional medicine, but that is not what this thread is about.
Deepak Chopra is one of thousands of doctors who practice some aryuvedic principles. He is not a guru amongst aryuvedic doctors. He is an allopathic doctor. In my 16 hours of formal education in aryuveda, his name was never mentioned and his books were not even on the reading list.0 -
A. Some people do survive.Pancreatic cancer is going to kill you no matter what treatment you have. I firmly am anti-woo therapy and things like alkaline diet for cancer but seriously, pancreatic cancer is vicious...
B. Jobs didn't have general pancreatic cancer, he had a particular kind known as "neuroendocrine tumor or islet cell carcinoma" that actually has a much better survival rate.
http://www.webmd.com/cancer/pancreatic-cancer/news/20110825/faq-steve-jobs-pancreatic-cancer
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dashaclaire wrote: »My Mum used to brew a pitta tea in the summer (Virginia July=pantpantpantpant) that was supposed to be cooling, didn't taste like much but I was totally impressed by how much it cooled my whole body down... It was like A/C in a glass. She got into Ayruvedic stuff for a awhile. I think the is some value there, many herbs have some value. If it gets you doing yoga and eating healthy then wonderful. My personal opinion: Yoga is the fountain of youth.
Hey, that might be the thing to help my hot flashes!
Bro, if you have hot flashes, do not pass go, head straight to the doctor. :P As for me, forget the tea, I take RX hormone replacement therapy. Without it I would probably be the stabbiest sea hag lol.
I've been to the doctor and one of my choices was hormone replacement therapy. After discussions with my doctor and my own research, it's a no thank you.
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It's still amazing to me that my original post caused so many responses. I am loving the dialog here, although some of the staunch opposition (particularly the vomiting ayurveda thread), I found hysterically funny. You can find extremes about anything, and that certainly doesn't fall into the ayurvedic principles I've ever heard of or would condone. It's very easy to look online and find extremes about anything.
So in response I (again) wanted to post this link to my former doctors in New York. I found it interesting that NO ONE but one person responded to my original post, since I had 1) an actual website of a reputable (ie major "big medicine" hospital sanctioned) doctor and 2) a lookin at all sides reasonable tone (I hope! I tried!) Though there have been alot of what I thought was a reasonable tone on here, so maybe that is not it.
http://healthandhealingny.org/
that's more about the practice (which takes insurance!)
this is more about research, a ton of links:
http://healthandhealingny.org/Institute/
This practice is part of Beth Israel hospital in NYC, one of the top hospitals in the States. As I mentioned in my previous post (that I can't now find since there are so many posts here - so cool!), I am interested for myself in a combination of western and eastern medicine. I've found that to work best for my body. I don't like getting prescribed antibiotics when I have infections, and these doctors - who were trained in both modalities were usually prescribing alternative, gentler methods first. They were also just good folks and good listeners, which I've found to be great no matter what you prescribe to.
So check it out if you dare, o doubters. There are studies here! Let the debunking fly!
Margaret0 -
margaretlb4 wrote: »It's still amazing to me that my original post caused so many responses. I am loving the dialog here, although some of the staunch opposition (particularly the vomiting ayurveda thread), I found hysterically funny. You can find extremes about anything, and that certainly doesn't fall into the ayurvedic principles I've ever heard of or would condone. It's very easy to look online and find extremes about anything.
So in response I (again) wanted to post this link to my former doctors in New York. I found it interesting that NO ONE but one person responded to my original post, since I had 1) an actual website of a reputable (ie major "big medicine" hospital sanctioned) doctor and 2) a lookin at all sides reasonable tone (I hope! I tried!) Though there have been alot of what I thought was a reasonable tone on here, so maybe that is not it.
http://healthandhealingny.org/
that's more about the practice (which takes insurance!)
this is more about research, a ton of links:
http://healthandhealingny.org/Institute/
This practice is part of Beth Israel hospital in NYC, one of the top hospitals in the States. As I mentioned in my previous post (that I can't now find since there are so many posts here - so cool!), I am interested for myself in a combination of western and eastern medicine. I've found that to work best for my body. I don't like getting prescribed antibiotics when I have infections, and these doctors - who were trained in both modalities were usually prescribing alternative, gentler methods first. They were also just good folks and good listeners, which I've found to be great no matter what you prescribe to.
So check it out if you dare, o doubters. There are studies here! Let the debunking fly!
Margaret
I shall try. I am no where near as good as many of the others in this thread. I am sure the better people will correct me where I am wrong but here goes nothing ^_^
Basics about the hospital, not nationally ranked as you said though US news does put them close (http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/area/ny/beth-israel-medical-center-6212655). There are also 77 pages of doctors. This would indicate that you might be relying on the hospitals name a little too strongly.
Your post makes it sound like you are more interested in the research though so lets look at that. They have posted completed research that was not published so I will assume all research they have undertaken is on the page you supplied (http://healthandhealingny.org/Institute/institute-research/completed-studies.aspx).
Integrative Approaches to Chronic Pain
This study looks at the use of different modalities and their ability to change self reported pain scores. These included " acupuncture/Chinese medicine (51.9%), manipulation therapy (17.3%), mind/body techniques (7.7%), integrative medicine consult (7.7%), exercise (7.7%), yoga (1.9%), and alternative medical systems therapy (5.8%). Overall, acupuncture/Chinese medicine, manipulation therapy, and mind/body therapy were the most commonly received modalities".
I assume I will be saying this often- This study is inept. Non random non controlled, discarded the data of people that did not finish the 24 week process. The members that finished the study (it could be argued) biased the results. This would create a selection effect that they did not account for. Also used a logistic regression for no good reason (and did not adequately explain why). Would not be published in a real journal.
ADDOPT (Acupuncture to Decrease Disparities of Pain Treatment)
Acupuncture and pain this time. Subjects tended to be older poorer and less educated. They want to know if acupuncture can work in urban areas. They find that of the 170 subjects that finished more than 5 weeks 73 % received 5 treatments or more.
Issues- 1/3 of the people stopped treatment. Mean treatment amount was 8 with a std of 5. That indicates wide variation (14 visits max). Most either did all or very few. Nothing about if the treatment is actually effective.
Kind of pointless
Acupuncture Integration in a Hospital Setting
A study which interviewed 8 people for less than 2 hours each.....
Just no.
On that I am done. Strike three.
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margaretlb4 wrote: »It's still amazing to me that my original post caused so many responses. I am loving the dialog here, although some of the staunch opposition (particularly the vomiting ayurveda thread), I found hysterically funny. You can find extremes about anything, and that certainly doesn't fall into the ayurvedic principles I've ever heard of or would condone. It's very easy to look online and find extremes about anything.
Since when is "correct" an extreme?
You seem to be giving the argument of "Woo vs Science" a false balance, and trying to settle for a middle ground.
The middle ground between wrong and correct is still not right.0 -
"Imagine consulting a physician who chooses to cast aside more than two centuries of medical progress in favor of the “science” of ancient Greece and Rome. No modern diagnostic techniques (X-rays, MRIs, blood tests, CAT scans, etc.), no well-researched medications and therapies, this practitioner instead studies your “humors,” the life forces alleged to be at the core of human physiology in the pre-scientific age (black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood), and ends up suggesting you consume a herbal concoction and chant a mantra to treat your ills. This is how Ayurvedic practitioners treat millions of patients worldwide."
Read more: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/13-10-09/0 -
Wow, lots of opinions here. So I'll add mine and see where it goes...
First some background on me: I'm female, 45, 282lbs. My weight issues began shortly after I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar and I was prescribed Lithium. Apparently I am allergic to lithium and it caused my thyroid to almost completely shut down. Over the course of 3 months I literally doubled in weight. I went from 125 to 250. Once they took me off the lithium, (yes it took them 3 months to figure out it was the culprit) I stopped gaining the weight but the damage to my body was done. They then placed me on a high dose of Depakote to which I also had a negative reaction to - insatiable hunger. I would eat a meal consisting of nearly a thousand calories (and I tried to make the majority of the meal fresh vegetables and lean protiens) within 15 or so minutes I would feel hunger pangs to the extent it would bring me to tears. To combat this the doctor also prescribed Topomax which has a common side effect of anorexic behavior. It helped some. By this point I had increased in weight to 335lbs. I was depressed, in pain due to a lower back injury and miserable.
5 years ago I joined a local gym and with help from a friend who is also a personal trainer I managed to lose weight and get down to 262lbs. My biggest 2 hurdles were constant pain levels of 7-9 on the 10 point scale, and I still tend to want to stress eat. Then this past winter when the temperatures plummitted my pain went off the charts. Standing up made my knees feel like someone was shooting them at point blank range with a shotgun. The muscles in my thighs were so tight that you could bounce coins off of them (even though they are surrounded by thick layers of cellulite). I went to my doctor who ran some in depth tests which came back with the diagnosis of Mixed Connective Tissue Diseaase. This is an auto-immune disease that attacks the connective tissue of the body. A basic summary of the disease is that it takes every disease that falls under the umbrella of auto-immune diseases that affect connective tissue such as Lupus and Rhumitoid Artheritis, throws them in a bag, shakes vigorously and draws out random symptoms. Which means that I have all of those diseases and yet none of them. Yay me.....
This disease has no cure just treatment options. Western medicine offers two treatment options for me - Long term corticosteroids such as Prednisone or Anti-Malaria drugs. Well the steroids are out for two reasons, first and formost they paly hell with my Bi-Polar. Steroids negatively affect moods in people..."roid rage" anyone? Secondly, long term steroid use causes vision loss, irregular heartbeat (a symptom I already have is Arhythmia, let's make that worse), breathing difficulties (I already have Asthma...), numbness in the extremities, swelling in the extremities and weight gain to name a few issues. So no, not worth it. Long term use of Anti-Malaria drugs can cause retinal damage, seizures, severe depression, muscle pain (instead of joint pain - ok, trade one pain for another why?), hallucinations, vertgo, tinnitus, insomnia and irregular heartbeat (see previous note) to name a few. Once again, sooooooo not worth it.
So where does that leave me, a lifetime doomed to suffer excruciating pain and physical degeneration and debilitation. If I can avoid that then I want to. So since Western science has limited options I looked to the East. What do I have to lose right? After weeks and months of online and physical research I have found that Ayurvedic practices tend to have the most profound results for people suffering from my illness and from many of the symptoms of my illness. Yes, the vast majority of the evidence is strictly anecdotal but when you see account after account of people saying that when using either of the two treatments noted above they were miserable and in declining health but when they adopted Ayurvedic practices their health improved and in some cases even went into remission. I have even found a few studies being made of some of the spices frequently used in Ayurvedic food recommendations. Turmeric and Ginger mostly. Western science has confirmed the anti-inflammitory propereties of both of these spices which is why they use steroids to treat my illness. Also both stimulate digestion which helps the body retain the useful nutrients it needs to be healthy. There are many more proposed studies of Ayurvedic foods and practices out there but they are meeting resistance from the pharmicutical lobbies. You have to wonder why that is.....fear of losing profits perhaps if the studies prove in favor of the Ayurvedics?
One thing to remember about Western Medicine, it is designed to treat illness after is discovered. Eastern Medicine is designed to prevent illness in the first place.
I'm not saying that Western Medicine and Science is a bad thing or something that should be demonized and avoided. It has its palce and benefits. But Just because we in the west are unfamiliar with Eastern Medicine and Science doesn't mean it should also be demonized and avoided. I mean, it has been around for centuries - practically unchanged for the most part for many of the latest centuries. And we see that it tends to work for those in the countries that use it almost exclusively. Shoot, in India, where poverty and filth are rampant people are for the most part relatively healthy and live long, productive lives. If those same conditions were found here in the West we certainly wouldn't have the great number of populations that India, China and Japan have. I dare say our populations would drastically decline. I place this under the heading of "If it ain't broke - don't fix it," and it doesn't seem to be broken.
I have been slowly adapting my diet and lifestyle to one that has more Ayurvedic practices. I don't plan to immurse myself in it nor go completely vegetarian (Can we say Bacon?). But adding more vegitarian meals and dishes to my diet can't hurt me so long as I do my research and make sure I am getting the correct balances of nutrition. Meditation for a few minutes a day can't hurt me. And becoming a more thoughtful and mindful person can only improve me and be positive for those around me. So call this woo if you want, call it superstition and uneducated. But in the words of my Doctor, " If it isn't making you worse and it does give you positive results - go for it. What do you have to lose?"
And by the way, just since I have begun consuming 1 tablespoon of Turmeric and 1 tablespoon of fresh Ginger daily my pain levels have dropped noticebly and I am able to actually walk for more than 10 minutes without hurting so much that I have to lay down for a half hour afterwards. I went for a 25 minute walk with my dog yesterday morning with the only adverse reaction being muscle soreness in my thighs this morning. But it was the muscle soreness you get from working out - not just pain for pain sake. Think about that a minute before you jump to begin explaining to me the errors of my thinking.
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Very quickly, I would like to apologize for the typos, misspellings and grammatical errors in my previous post. I was writing free form and just clicked on post automatically. I will attempt to slow down and proof read my statements in the future. Please don't take my haste as an indication of ignorance.0
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1. Evidence based (again, hate this Western medicine and the implied racism of claiming people of the East can't science or something) medicine is not only treating illness. Are people making this claim seriously going to say doctors never gave you health advice on things to avoid? The bigger truth? Evidence based medicine has been espousing how to STAY healthy so much, people have ignored it. It is so ingrained in society that you take it for granted. Then, suddenly, some kind of eastern wisdom gets shown to you, and suddenly you listen and say "finally, someone talking about preventing disease."
One thing to remember about Western Medicine, it is designed to treat illness after is discovered. Eastern Medicine is designed to prevent illness in the first place.
I'm not saying that Western Medicine and Science is a bad thing or something that should be demonized and avoided. It has its palce and benefits. But Just because we in the west are unfamiliar with Eastern Medicine and Science doesn't mean it should also be demonized and avoided. I mean, it has been around for centuries - practically unchanged for the most part for many of the latest centuries. And we see that it tends to work for those in the countries that use it almost exclusively. Shoot, in India, where poverty and filth are rampant people are for the most part relatively healthy and live long, productive lives. If those same conditions were found here in the West we certainly wouldn't have the great number of populations that India, China and Japan have. I dare say our populations would drastically decline. I place this under the heading of "If it ain't broke - don't fix it," and it doesn't seem to be broken.
2. There is no Eastern science. There is only science. Anything else is a bit of fetishizing others cultures.
3. People in India are mostly long lived? No, the people Western journalism and woo-mongers show you to make a point are old. Average lifespan for the western world is much higher, other than Japan, which, you know, tends to use modern evidence based medicine on top of having society living in cities that tend to encourage physical activity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
India: average life span 66,
China: 75,
USA: 77.97,
The UN's 2009-2012 rankings, the top ten is all Western Nations plus Japan and Hong Kong (which both use modern medicine).0 -
The placebo effect lives. I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen... if that. Perhaps it just added enough of an edge to allow you to exercise, which I personally found to have the greatest pain-relieving benefit of all.
I am glad you are finding relief for your condition, through whatever means. Even if it's just the belief that you would.0 -
Like you would know anything about it. Ginger and turmeric are proven by western medicine for pain.mamapeach910 wrote: »The placebo effect lives. I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen... if that. Perhaps it just added enough of an edge to allow you to exercise, which I personally found to have the greatest pain-relieving benefit of all.
I am glad you are finding relief for your condition, through whatever means. Even if it's just the belief that you would.0 -
TheDevastator wrote: »
Like you would know anything about it. Ginger and turmeric are proven by western medicine for pain.mamapeach910 wrote: »The placebo effect lives. I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen... if that. Perhaps it just added enough of an edge to allow you to exercise, which I personally found to have the greatest pain-relieving benefit of all.
I am glad you are finding relief for your condition, through whatever means. Even if it's just the belief that you would.
Probably why she said "I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen..."0 -
TheDevastator wrote: »
Like you would know anything about it. Ginger and turmeric are proven by western medicine for pain.mamapeach910 wrote: »The placebo effect lives. I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen... if that. Perhaps it just added enough of an edge to allow you to exercise, which I personally found to have the greatest pain-relieving benefit of all.
I am glad you are finding relief for your condition, through whatever means. Even if it's just the belief that you would.
You stopped reading my post after my first sentence, didn't you?TheDevastator wrote: »
Like you would know anything about it. Ginger and turmeric are proven by western medicine for pain.mamapeach910 wrote: »The placebo effect lives. I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen... if that. Perhaps it just added enough of an edge to allow you to exercise, which I personally found to have the greatest pain-relieving benefit of all.
I am glad you are finding relief for your condition, through whatever means. Even if it's just the belief that you would.
Probably why she said "I know turmeric has mild anti-inflammatory properties, but your pain sounded more profound. It's really no more effective than taking ibuprofen..."
There's the second sentence. Thanks to senecarr for reiterating it.
For the record? I HAVE a painful autoimmune condition that effects both the joints and the attached ligaments. Pain relief on the level of Ibuprofen? Wouldn't and didn't touch it.
I'm still sticking with the placebo theory combined with some mild pain relief.
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C. Accusations against the validity of traditions isn't based on conjecture. All the "traditions" you've listed, to some extent or another, reject the scientific method, and pretty much start with a non-scientific based theory.
D. The burden of proof is on Aryuvedic to show that it is effective. Otherwise, the standing position for medicine is, first, do no harm.
E. When you cite a properly done study about an herb used in Aryuvedic, that isn't proving Aryuvedic, that is proving chemistry and biology. I'm not sure you understand how a theory and central dogma work in philosophies of knowledge. It isn't just that some things in Aryuvedic are shown to work, they have to also show that the system is effective at determining what works. Aryuvedic will say some herbs work because they increase the air element in a person. That's patently false. When an herb is actually studied in a clinical trial, that's not Aryuvedic anymore - that's evidence based medicine.
C. First let me ask why you say that Ayurveda rejects the scientific method?
Step 1: Ask a Question: Will eating a diet rich in vegetables and certain spices improve a person's overall general health?
Step 2: Do Background Research: Talk to local villagers and as many other people I can talk to about their health and diets.
Step 3: Construct a Hypothesis: A person who eats a diet rich in vegetables and specific spices will have overall better health than a person who does not.
Step 4: Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment: Convince some people in your village to follow your diet. Convince some people in your village to avoid foods in your diet. Leave the rest of the village to eat normally. Have them do this for a year and observe the results in reference to everyone's overall health. Do this in neighboring villages as well. Revisit the health of the participants 5, 10 and 20 years later also noting their dietary habits of the intervening years.
Step 5: Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion: Comapare your results. Determine that those who ate the diet in question had improved overall health at the end of the first year. Determine that those individuals who continued to follow the diet continued to have overall better health that those who did not. Determine that those individuals who initially ate the diet but then reverted to their previous diet had decreased overall health after discontinuing the diet.
Step 6: Communicate Your Results: Tell everyone what you have discovered and encourage them to follow your diet. Have whole communities adopt your diet and continue to refer others to it.
Sounds pretty scientific to me . Yes I am basing this mostly on conjecture, especially the 5, 10 and 20 years following, but my knowledge of cultural development supports that this is the way that cultural practices concerning diet develop. A person or persons try a new food or food preparation then encourage other to try it. Some people try it, others refuse to even consider the notion and still others just don't pay any attention and keep on as they have been. Over time people begin to notice the results of trying the new foods and either adopt them into their diets or not. Things that prove to be beneficial to the eater get adopted more easily and more pervasively than those that don't. Since Ayurvedic diets have been adopted by literally millions of people and entire cultures have sprung up based on Ayurvetic practices it would be logical to deduce that it has merit. Things that are detrimental to humans, tend to fall out of favor over time - Ayurveda is actually growing.
D. You seem to think that Ayurveda has proven to be ineffective and that it doesn't concern itself about harming others. The first is ambiguous and the second in patently false.
Just because science has yet proven beyond question that Ayurvedic practices are effective they also haven't proven that it isn't. There haven't been enough studies. It is still up for consideration. But based on centuries of observable and anecdotal evidence it certainly seems to be effective for the vast majority of individuals who follow it. Again, if it didn't it would fall out of favor.
As to being concerned about harm, the whole basis of Ayurveda is to prevent harm from occurring - in the body, the mind, the spirit and the universe. So yes - Ayurveda's position is also "Do No Harm."
E. Apparently you judge Ayurvedics much more harshly and narrowly than current medical science. You refute Ayurvedics that work because they claim to balance the propeties of air in the individual instead of actually claiming the chemical reaction that produces the positive result in the body. Regardless of the rational behind why it works - it still works. Early western medicine claimed that invisible demons or creatures infested a person and caused illnesses. Strong herbs and physical practices were used by medical practitioners of the time to drive out these "demons." We have since learned that the illnesses are caused by microscopic ("invisible") bacteria, viruses and other organisms but we have also scientifically proven that many of the herbs used in those "superstitious" practices actually kill or drive out those organisms. By your logic this shouldn't be considered legitimate medicine either since those "medical" remedies were touted to drive out demons.
Scientific evidence of something's effectiveness does not remove it from the original system that used it, it only supports its use.
A website that discusses using medieval medicine in modern pharmacuticals is: www.scienceinschool.org/2013/issue27/monastic
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You're only talking about diet. Ayurveda and monastic medicine encompass/ed a lot more than diet and herbs.
Also, after some research on your condition, considering the therapies offered to you and what you've said here, it's clear that it's not progressed much.
I'd like to see how you feel about these Eastern approaches were you suffering from further complications and a longer time frame.
Assessments on the pain scale are useless barometers of disease severity or progression. Everyone's pain tolerance varies.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »You're only talking about diet. Ayurveda and monastic medicine encompass/ed a lot more than diet and herbs.
Also, after some research on your condition, considering the therapies offered to you and what you've said here, it's clear that it's not progressed much.
I'd like to see how you feel about these Eastern approaches were you suffering from further complications and a longer time frame.
Assessments on the pain scale are useless barometers of disease severity or progression. Everyone's pain tolerance varies.
So far as I've seen here, most of the discussions have centered around the dietary and medicinal values of Ayurveda - also that is where my knowledge currently lies so that is where I have kept my responses, including to your post.
My disease has progressed far enough that it is making every day miserable and stops me from doing regular day to day tasks that the average, healthy 45 year old female can do which is one of the criteria for being declaired physically disabled by social security. So for my personal experience with the illness I am not happy with how it affects me, and I have only spoken from personal experience, not tried to make claims for others. As for therapies offered, I can only talk about what I have been offered.
Keep in touch and I will keep you updated on my progress. Again, just from the anecdotal evidence I have found, long term following of an Ayurvedic diet has proven greatly effective for people with my condition. I am trying an Ayurvedic approach in hopes that it will provide similar results for me. If it doesn't I will chalk it up to experience and try something else. You have to admit, the list of adverse effects of the treatments offered to me would not lead a sane person to want to use them if another possibility was offered.
And yes everyone's pain tolerance varies, but how a person's pain effects them is only important to them anyway. I'm not saying my pain means my illness has progressed horrifically. I'm saying that my pain (along with the many other symptoms I have that I did not list so you don't have an accurate assessment of my illness anyway. And unless you are a Dr. specializing in my condition you really have no basis to make an assessment of the severity of my illness to begin with) is negatively affecting my quality of life and I want to do something about it.
Oh, and if you are interested in making an assessment of my pain toleranc: I had kidney stones and didn't feel any pain until the day before I had them surgically removed and it was only a very mild sensation, I was eating steak at Logan's Roadhouse 4 hours after having all 4 wisdom teeth surgically removed, I have self-reset 4 different dislocations instead of going to the ER, I have had 5 root canals and did not need to use pain medications for any of them nor did I have to adjust my eating habits to accomodate any pain and the list could go on. Based on other people's reports of dealing with similar situations I would rate my pain tolerance as pretty good. Think what you will of this or me.
My biggest lack of understanding in all of this dialog is how a place set up to show each other support and encouragement has devolved in a perceivable "us against them" forum with most of the folks in the against Ayurveda camp being aggressive in their statements and even somewhat accusatory and derisive. If anyone on this forum wants to try something to improve themselves, so long as they are not harming others and are not in imminent danger of harming themselves why the hostility and derision? If you disagree with that path there are ways to express your opinion without making it a personal attack or trying to make the person feel defective for practicing it. If you are just so adamantly opposed to it, just leave the discussion. And if you feel so very strongly opposed to it that you can't keep your opinion to yourself then start your own thread with your viewpoint where others of similar viewpoints can share.
I am not ignorant nor a blind sheep following the herd. I have done research on the aspects of Ayurveda that might help me. I am cautiously optimistic but am accepting that it might not work. Either support me and the others who are in favor of Ayurveda in our choices, find a way to express your perspective without attempting to demean ours or move on because you and most of the others in your camp are not helping anything.
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Senecarr,
I apologize if my use of the term "Western Medicine" bothers you. If you note in my earlier post, I also use the term "Eastern Medicine." I only use these terms to separate the modalities of thought not their scientific values or abilities. I firmly believe that people in the Eastern hemisphere are just as capable of scientific thought as their Western counterparts. In fact I tend to believe that much of the science of the East is more advanced than the science of the West because they tend to be more open to ancient practices as being valid inside of science as opposed to writing it off as mere superstition. I am not trying to be elitist or romanticize any culture or belief system.
Unfortunately our society uses umbrella terms to express concepts and without using those terms it is difficult to make a point that is more easily understood.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »You're only talking about diet. Ayurveda and monastic medicine encompass/ed a lot more than diet and herbs.
Also, after some research on your condition, considering the therapies offered to you and what you've said here, it's clear that it's not progressed much.
I'd like to see how you feel about these Eastern approaches were you suffering from further complications and a longer time frame.
Assessments on the pain scale are useless barometers of disease severity or progression. Everyone's pain tolerance varies.
So far as I've seen here, most of the discussions have centered around the dietary and medicinal values of Ayurveda - also that is where my knowledge currently lies so that is where I have kept my responses, including to your post.
My disease has progressed far enough that it is making every day miserable and stops me from doing regular day to day tasks that the average, healthy 45 year old female can do which is one of the criteria for being declaired physically disabled by social security. So for my personal experience with the illness I am not happy with how it affects me, and I have only spoken from personal experience, not tried to make claims for others. As for therapies offered, I can only talk about what I have been offered.
Keep in touch and I will keep you updated on my progress. Again, just from the anecdotal evidence I have found, long term following of an Ayurvedic diet has proven greatly effective for people with my condition. I am trying an Ayurvedic approach in hopes that it will provide similar results for me. If it doesn't I will chalk it up to experience and try something else. You have to admit, the list of adverse effects of the treatments offered to me would not lead a sane person to want to use them if another possibility was offered.
And yes everyone's pain tolerance varies, but how a person's pain effects them is only important to them anyway. I'm not saying my pain means my illness has progressed horrifically. I'm saying that my pain (along with the many other symptoms I have that I did not list so you don't have an accurate assessment of my illness anyway. And unless you are a Dr. specializing in my condition you really have no basis to make an assessment of the severity of my illness to begin with) is negatively affecting my quality of life and I want to do something about it.
Oh, and if you are interested in making an assessment of my pain toleranc: I had kidney stones and didn't feel any pain until the day before I had them surgically removed and it was only a very mild sensation, I was eating steak at Logan's Roadhouse 4 hours after having all 4 wisdom teeth surgically removed, I have self-reset 4 different dislocations instead of going to the ER, I have had 5 root canals and did not need to use pain medications for any of them nor did I have to adjust my eating habits to accomodate any pain and the list could go on. Based on other people's reports of dealing with similar situations I would rate my pain tolerance as pretty good. Think what you will of this or me.
My biggest lack of understanding in all of this dialog is how a place set up to show each other support and encouragement has devolved in a perceivable "us against them" forum with most of the folks in the against Ayurveda camp being aggressive in their statements and even somewhat accusatory and derisive. If anyone on this forum wants to try something to improve themselves, so long as they are not harming others and are not in imminent danger of harming themselves why the hostility and derision? If you disagree with that path there are ways to express your opinion without making it a personal attack or trying to make the person feel defective for practicing it. If you are just so adamantly opposed to it, just leave the discussion. And if you feel so very strongly opposed to it that you can't keep your opinion to yourself then start your own thread with your viewpoint where others of similar viewpoints can share.
I am not ignorant nor a blind sheep following the herd. I have done research on the aspects of Ayurveda that might help me. I am cautiously optimistic but am accepting that it might not work. Either support me and the others who are in favor of Ayurveda in our choices, find a way to express your perspective without attempting to demean ours or move on because you and most of the others in your camp are not helping anything.
It was not my intent to make a personal attack at all.
However, the facts clearly present themselves. You are taking anti-inflammatory herbs which have been proven in studies to have the effectiveness of an over the counter drug.
I think that, with any condition which involves chronic pain, the belief that you can find relief plays a huge role in being able to do so.
Those of us living with the pain day to day, probably don't give two tosses about the mechanism of how or why we feel better, we're just glad we do.
But for the benefit of the other people participating in the discussion, I think the science and mechanism of why you feel better is important. It wasn't my intent to diminish your struggles, but rather to get to the meat of them so as to look critically at the treatments you're taking.
Turmeric and ginger are not super helpful pain relievers with magical properties unknown to science. If you've had results which surpassed taking ibuprofen, your belief in what they could do for you did that.
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"mamapeach910 wrote: »
But for the benefit of the other people participating in the discussion, I think the science and mechanism of why you feel better is important.
One problem with that logic. If you are applying the placebo effect as the primary cause of any possible positive response to using spices for pain management, or any of the Ayurvedic Practices for that matter, then making the patient aware of the placebo removes its ability to generate the positive response. That is proven psychology. So telling me that the turmeric and ginger don't really have much benefit just inflates your sense of ego by showing off your intellect in a public forum - it has no possibility of helping me with my pain control. If I were to actually believe your statement then you would have effectively increased my pain.
Think your arguments through to their complete conclusion. By your own argument for placebo effect then ignorance is truly bliss. Sometimes just because we believe a thing is true doesn't mean that we are required to or should try to make others believe the same.
Food for thought.0 -
"If you've had results which surpassed taking ibuprofen, your belief in what they could do for you did that."
I think it would be a mistake to underestimate the importance of this observation:
This may be the key that needs the most attention in discussing these traditional methods, as opposed to the more directly science-based methods: I feel that a patient always should be an active participant in his or her recovery, and that a negative attitude is generally harmful to almost any effort while an aggressively constructive attitude is generally a considerable aid no matter which medical method is being used.
But it may be that with such methods as acupuncture, ayurveda, and other such methods, the mindset and emotional receptivity of the patient is much more vital. So, for an inherently skeptical person, ayurveda, for example, has no effect; for a person willing to believe, it would like be effective. MamaP, for you and likely for me, it wouldn't work; for JheanW, it does, in part because the mind and emotional state are actively encouraging it.
From my perspective, this does not invalidate the results that JheanW experiences. For me, it underscores the suggestions by those who say that, used intelligently, there is room for various theories of medicine and wellbeing to work together.0 -
"mamapeach910 wrote: »
But for the benefit of the other people participating in the discussion, I think the science and mechanism of why you feel better is important.
One problem with that logic. If you are applying the placebo effect as the primary cause of any possible positive response to using spices for pain management, or any of the Ayurvedic Practices for that matter, then making the patient aware of the placebo removes its ability to generate the positive response. That is proven psychology. So telling me that the turmeric and ginger don't really have much benefit just inflates your sense of ego by showing off your intellect in a public forum - it has no possibility of helping me with my pain control. If I were to actually believe your statement then you would have effectively increased my pain.
Think your arguments through to their complete conclusion. By your own argument for placebo effect then ignorance is truly bliss. Sometimes just because we believe a thing is true doesn't mean that we are required to or should try to make others believe the same.
Food for thought.
Sorry, your reasoning doesn't pan out. Firstly, there's nothing wrong with the belief in the efficacy of something being one of the primary sources of of its effectiveness -- unless that is being hidden under mysticism and sold. Someone even stated as much somewhere upthread. She acknowledged that and still believes in the efficacy of alternative healing. Stating the role the recipient plays in things doesn't diminish his or her faith in the process if he's already handed it over. That's not how the psychology of belief works.
I would just rather, as a skeptic, see people believe in themselves as the agents of self-determined change for the better in their health than place faith in something that doesn't have proven benefit beyond what they could pick up at the local Rite-Aid. You are a bigger agent for positive changes than you give yourself credit for.
There's plenty of evidence in this thread that people are willing to hand over faith, money, and agency in the name of weight loss and health.
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"mamapeach910 wrote: »
Sorry, your reasoning doesn't pan out. Firstly, there's nothing wrong with the belief in the efficacy of something being one of the primary sources of of its effectiveness -- unless that is being hidden under mysticism and sold. Someone even stated as much somewhere upthread. She acknowledged that and still believes in the efficacy of alternative healing. Stating the role the recipient plays in things doesn't diminish his or her faith in the process if he's already handed it over. That's not how the psychology of belief works.
I would just rather, as a skeptic, see people believe in themselves as the agents of self-determined change for the better in their health than place faith in something that doesn't have proven benefit beyond what they could pick up at the local Rite-Aid. You are a bigger agent for positive changes than you give yourself credit for.
There's plenty of evidence in this thread that people are willing to hand over faith, money, and agency in the name of weight loss and health.
It has been shown time and again that once a patient becomes aware that they are receiving a placebo their reaction to the placebo changes. Again that is a psychological fact. That being said the person has to believe it is a placebo. If I were taking a sugar pill and believed it was a weight loss wonder drug and lost 5 lbs a week while taking it then was shown that it was a sugar pill - not just
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"If you've had results which surpassed taking ibuprofen, your belief in what they could do for you did that."
I think it would be a mistake to underestimate the importance of this observation:
This may be the key that needs the most attention in discussing these traditional methods, as opposed to the more directly science-based methods: I feel that a patient always should be an active participant in his or her recovery, and that a negative attitude is generally harmful to almost any effort while an aggressively constructive attitude is generally a considerable aid no matter which medical method is being used.
But it may be that with such methods as acupuncture, ayurveda, and other such methods, the mindset and emotional receptivity of the patient is much more vital. So, for an inherently skeptical person, ayurveda, for example, has no effect; for a person willing to believe, it would like be effective. MamaP, for you and likely for me, it wouldn't work; for JheanW, it does, in part because the mind and emotional state are actively encouraging it.
From my perspective, this does not invalidate the results that JheanW experiences. For me, it underscores the suggestions by those who say that, used intelligently, there is room for various theories of medicine and wellbeing to work together.
I've bolded the key word in what you said. The biggest problem with all of this is that because there is a currency of belief involved, the whole area is ripe for people being parted from their money in unscrupulous ways for unfounded reasons.
There's a whole website... http://whatstheharm.net/... devoted to answering the question... "what could happen?" when people seek out alternative therapies without engaging some critical thinking.
There's also Quackwatch. And even though someone posted links trying to discredit the PERSON behind it, doing that does NOTHING to discredit the information posted on that site. You can't find anything to discredit it outside of the woo sites themselves.
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Dang computer......to finish my thought......
not just told but shown irrefutably then my weight loss would change. Most likely for the worse. Now if I were just told but refused to believe that it was a sugar pill then my weight loss would possibly suffer a little due to the introduction of doubt but it wouldn't drastically change.
It is the belief in the placebo not the placebo that works. Removing the ability to believe is what causes the result.
So yes people are willing to hand over anything for something they believe in, and if it works then why not? It doesn't harm them to spend money on something that helps them whether it has a foundation in science or myth. Now if they were not receiving benefit and paying money then that would be a bad thing, but so far everyone here who has spoken in favor of the Ayurvedic practices they are or have experienced personally have had positive results. No harm no foul.
I have spent thousands of dollars on drugs that have nearly killed me. Drugs professed by science to be beneficial for me. I trusted the physicians who prescribed them to me. I trusted the pharmacists who gave them to me. Their science said that the drugs would help me. In point of fact those drugs harmed me greatly. So since I spent money and was harmed should I demonize those drugs or those medical professionals or their science? I believed what they told me and I believed the drugs would help me. I have since learned to ask more questions and be more skeptical of medical science. This is why I am looking to Ayurveda for help instead of trusting the Dr.s now. I have become more educated about asking questions and seeking answers. This time those answers are directing me away from modern medicine. Next time maybe not. I haven't turned my back just my pain.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »I've bolded the key word in what you said. The biggest problem with all of this is that because there is a currency of belief involved, the whole area is ripe for people being parted from their money in unscrupulous ways for unfounded reasons.
There's a whole website... http://whatstheharm.net/... devoted to answering the question... "what could happen?" when people seek out alternative therapies without engaging some critical thinking.
There's also Quackwatch. And even though someone posted links trying to discredit the PERSON behind it, doing that does NOTHING to discredit the information posted on that site. You can't find anything to discredit it outside of the woo sites themselves.
Totally agreed, without a doubt, analysis and critical thinking is even more important when looking into alternative methods, precisely because of the level of belief and trust necessary. Without a doubt, there are many quacks in the profession. There are, unfortunately, also many quacks in Western medicine, as well; or doctors all too willing to medicate or operate unnecessarily. Critical thinking is advisable no matter what aspect of medical care one turns to; and of course, in times of stress, pain or illness, critical thinking is very difficult. Hopefully, we all have someone at our side who can help us make vital decisions (and hopefully, we are all equipped and able to return such favors if/when we're needed).
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