Organic...
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
When the consumer demands "no antibiotics" certification, they put the farmer in a dilemma. It has the potential to cause unneeded suffering, which the consumer never sees. And I was annoyed that you judged the farmer stupid.While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.
Customers demand no antibiotics because of the choices available.
and those choices lead to animals pointless suffering because they cannot be treated for very curable diseases.
I don't see why farmers that mistreat animals should be reason to dislike organic farming in general. It's not as if non-organic commercial animals are living in the lap of luxury.
because it's needless suffering that other animals don't have to go thru. not sure why that's hard to understand0 -
Can't prove a negative. Can we prove organic is safer and healthier?
I'd say we trade one terror for another. On one side there's the fear of pesticide residue and the unknown compounding effect in our diet, and on the other it's bacterial contamination. (At least for me).
Then there's the matter of maximizing our land resources to their best potential. Is it organic? Or is it a mixture of the two? For instance, what if a farmer used soil preserving methods and natural fertilizing, rotating crops, and generally taking care of the land, without banning the use of fertilizers, pesticides for outbreaks, and GMO crops designed for maximum yield?
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
When the consumer demands "no antibiotics" certification, they put the farmer in a dilemma. It has the potential to cause unneeded suffering, which the consumer never sees. And I was annoyed that you judged the farmer stupid.While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.
Customers demand no antibiotics because of the choices available.
and those choices lead to animals pointless suffering because they cannot be treated for very curable diseases.
I don't see why farmers that mistreat animals should be reason to dislike organic farming in general. It's not as if non-organic commercial animals are living in the lap of luxury.
because it's needless suffering that other animals don't have to go thru. not sure why that's hard to understand
It's hard to understand why anyone would think that organically raised animals are routinely treated more poorly than other commercially raised animals.0 -
Fertilizer use around the world:
While over-use is a first-world (and Chinese) problem, Africa could greatly benefit from more fertilizer.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?
what I can't wrap my head around is why you have spent 11 pages arguing so strongly in favor of it
I totally get that some people like it
I wasn't actually arguing in favor of it. Not in favor of eating organic, that is. I don't care what others eat.
I would certainly argue in favor of allowing the practice to continue. We sure as heck don't need to outlaw organic farming.0 -
Last time I saw a strawman that big, the people at Burning Man where starting up their lighters.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?
what I can't wrap my head around is why you have spent 11 pages arguing so strongly in favor of it
I totally get that some people like it
I wasn't actually arguing in favor of it. Not in favor of eating organic, that is. I don't care what others eat.
I would certainly argue in favor of allowing the practice to continue. We sure as heck don't need to outlaw organic farming.
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let them eat two-headed fish0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?
because it's more expensive and it's sold on a lie that it is healthier, safer, and more nutritious
just like body wraps and other woo
people on MFP don't like woo
So you hate the food or practice because of advertising?
Hate is a strong word. I just dislike it.
Like I said, it is sold on a lie that it is healthier, safer, and more nutritious.
Why would any rational person then advocate this?
The only people who benefit from this are the ones selling it.
But I didn't ask about advocating it. I asked about being against it (hate, dislike, whatever). And is there any proof that it's not safer or healthier?
go back through the 11 other pages in this thread and I'm sure you'll find the evidence you need
I don't need to re-post anything just because someone is asking for it again0 -
Senecarr, not sure about this part of your statement,
I also see it as a life style choice wealthy people and countries are promoting and purposely handicapping their food production that in a long chain of events, promotes continued colonialism of Africa and India. Right now, Europe could switch their agricultural practices to be more modern, and stop becoming importers. Instead they continue to encourage Africa and India to grow cash crop like cotton to the detriment of feed their own people. At the same time, they even provide loans towards growing this stuff, then turn around and tell them not to use advances like GMOs - technology that would make their crops more efficient and potentially lead to them getting out of debt.
You might want to do some research on India's cotton crop, they do not use advances like GMO's? ALL of India's cotton crop is GMO and most of the farmers are in debt to Monsanto, or to banks for borrowing the money to buy the expensive, self terminating seed from Monsanto. Most of the land in India can not support much more than cotton and soybeans.0 -
Can't prove a negative. Can we prove organic is safer and healthier?
I'd say we trade one terror for another. On one side there's the fear of pesticide residue and the unknown compounding effect in our diet, and on the other it's bacterial contamination. (At least for me).
Then there's the matter of maximizing our land resources to their best potential. Is it organic? Or is it a mixture of the two? For instance, what if a farmer used soil preserving methods and natural fertilizing, rotating crops, and generally taking care of the land, without banning the use of fertilizers, pesticides for outbreaks, and GMO crops designed for maximum yield?
Organic farming does not ban fertilizers or pesticides. What if we just let people decide for themselves what they want to eat?
As for proving one is safer or healthier, if you can't prove either way, then it seems a silly argument. It simply comes down to personal beliefs either way. One person says "I'll stick with this until you prove that is safe", and another says "I'll continue to eat this until you prove it's unsafe". And people from each side will assume they are superior to the other.
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TrailBlazinMN wrote: »
lol seems credible0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
When the consumer demands "no antibiotics" certification, they put the farmer in a dilemma. It has the potential to cause unneeded suffering, which the consumer never sees. And I was annoyed that you judged the farmer stupid.While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.
Customers demand no antibiotics because of the choices available.
and those choices lead to animals pointless suffering because they cannot be treated for very curable diseases.
I don't see why farmers that mistreat animals should be reason to dislike organic farming in general. It's not as if non-organic commercial animals are living in the lap of luxury.
because it's needless suffering that other animals don't have to go thru. not sure why that's hard to understand
It's hard to understand why anyone would think that organically raised animals are routinely treated more poorly than other commercially raised animals.
because they do not receive antibiotics. other animals do because part of their sale doesn't depend on them being antibiotic free0 -
Just read the recent information about DDT and breast cancer in moms and their girl babies, and you will have answered your own question. I know we don't use DDT anymore, but who can guarantee that 50 years from now scientists won't be saying the same thing about roundup and sevin. I always eat organic. But, I've had cancer, too, and that's the point when debating the issue seems silly. Do it if you can afford it.0
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Last time I saw a strawman that big, the people at Burning Man where starting up their lighters.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?
what I can't wrap my head around is why you have spent 11 pages arguing so strongly in favor of it
I totally get that some people like it
I wasn't actually arguing in favor of it. Not in favor of eating organic, that is. I don't care what others eat.
I would certainly argue in favor of allowing the practice to continue. We sure as heck don't need to outlaw organic farming.
If there is meaning in this, I missed it.0 -
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Nope.loconnor466 wrote: »Senecarr, not sure about this part of your statement,
I also see it as a life style choice wealthy people and countries are promoting and purposely handicapping their food production that in a long chain of events, promotes continued colonialism of Africa and India. Right now, Europe could switch their agricultural practices to be more modern, and stop becoming importers. Instead they continue to encourage Africa and India to grow cash crop like cotton to the detriment of feed their own people. At the same time, they even provide loans towards growing this stuff, then turn around and tell them not to use advances like GMOs - technology that would make their crops more efficient and potentially lead to them getting out of debt.
You might want to do some research on India's cotton crop, they do not use advances like GMO's? ALL of India's cotton crop is GMO and most of the farmers are in debt to Monsanto, or to banks for borrowing the money to buy the expensive, self terminating seed from Monsanto. Most of the land in India can not support much more than cotton and soybeans.
Not all of India's cotton is GMO. Of the ones that are, it started out being smuggled in illegally, so that there are many farmers that don't pay Monsanto or any other seed company a dime. Monsanto doesn't do money lending as far as I'm aware. There are no self terminating seeds in any commercial seeds in the entire world.
Also, cotton is the only GMO crop in India. They've managed to keep the others from receiving regulatory approval.
All of which also misses the point. India and Africa (which dropped from the conversation to try to bring up the EVILZ Monsatano) are both growing less efficient crops as cash crops, to sell to Europe, because Europe wants to intentionally avoid modern technology, and can externalize the issue by having other countries, previously European colonies, grow crops for them.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
When the consumer demands "no antibiotics" certification, they put the farmer in a dilemma. It has the potential to cause unneeded suffering, which the consumer never sees. And I was annoyed that you judged the farmer stupid.While the options are raised on antibiotics vs. no antibiotics ever. I'm going for zero antibiotics.
Customers demand no antibiotics because of the choices available.
and those choices lead to animals pointless suffering because they cannot be treated for very curable diseases.
I don't see why farmers that mistreat animals should be reason to dislike organic farming in general. It's not as if non-organic commercial animals are living in the lap of luxury.
because it's needless suffering that other animals don't have to go thru. not sure why that's hard to understand
It's hard to understand why anyone would think that organically raised animals are routinely treated more poorly than other commercially raised animals.
because they do not receive antibiotics. other animals do because part of their sale doesn't depend on them being antibiotic free
So that's your one and only criterion for an animal being treated humanely. They get antibiotics?0 -
TrailBlazinMN wrote: »
the sensationalist design of that site immediately causes one to dismiss it
so here I am having to click through into one of their studies
find the study title
follow it to the Lancet
then copypasta to google and look at the NCBI abstract
so yes you are correct and that was an error on my part. but they should make their site look less like some organic shill *kitten* imo0 -
If you can show me where anyone said organic farming should be outlawed, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, you're intentionally misrepresenting everyone here's statements.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Last time I saw a strawman that big, the people at Burning Man where starting up their lighters.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?
what I can't wrap my head around is why you have spent 11 pages arguing so strongly in favor of it
I totally get that some people like it
I wasn't actually arguing in favor of it. Not in favor of eating organic, that is. I don't care what others eat.
I would certainly argue in favor of allowing the practice to continue. We sure as heck don't need to outlaw organic farming.
If there is meaning in this, I missed it.
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