Keto lean bulk/recomp
AlexEtheridge1996
Posts: 65 Member
Hello,
just finished a successful cut utilising a deficit, and gradually deceased carbs until it became keto.i lost a lot of body fat and really like how i feel in ketosis.
So, would anyone recommend a ketogenic lean bulk? I dont calorie or carb cycle as such but i eat the majority of my 30g of carbs post workout and reduce calories on days i dont lift.
My aim is 3000 calories on days i lift (just above maintence/very small surplus) @ 5C/70F/25P
i was wondering whether i should up my carbs at all, and whether I should introduce refeeds (only refeeded once while dieting as i wanted to become fat adpated).
what are peoples experiences? Should i up my carbs but stay in ketosis, or should i leave ketosis but stay lowish carb?
I was also wondering whether anyone has noticed an ability to eat more and gain less fat while on a keto bulk, or an inability to gain muscle?
Need some opinions, thanks!
just finished a successful cut utilising a deficit, and gradually deceased carbs until it became keto.i lost a lot of body fat and really like how i feel in ketosis.
So, would anyone recommend a ketogenic lean bulk? I dont calorie or carb cycle as such but i eat the majority of my 30g of carbs post workout and reduce calories on days i dont lift.
My aim is 3000 calories on days i lift (just above maintence/very small surplus) @ 5C/70F/25P
i was wondering whether i should up my carbs at all, and whether I should introduce refeeds (only refeeded once while dieting as i wanted to become fat adpated).
what are peoples experiences? Should i up my carbs but stay in ketosis, or should i leave ketosis but stay lowish carb?
I was also wondering whether anyone has noticed an ability to eat more and gain less fat while on a keto bulk, or an inability to gain muscle?
Need some opinions, thanks!
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Replies
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I wouldn't recommend it, for the same reason I wouldn't recommend pissing into the wind or ice skating uphill.0
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Care to explain, genuinely interestedChief_Rocka wrote: »I wouldn't recommend it, for the same reason I wouldn't recommend pissing into the wind or ice skating uphill.
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Googled it and found a BB.com forum post, not entirely sure if the information is valid because I have no clue on the topic... interested to see what people say
Carbohydrates serve several functions
1) They are anti-catabolic. When you ingest carbohydrates, you body won't break down protein for energy.
2) They increase insulin output. This is a good thing since insulin is the MOST ANABOLIC HORMONE in your body
No harm in sticking with your CKD if it is working for you, but in no way, shape or form is a CKD even close to ideal for mass building.
that lean bodymass you think you're seeing? It's called "reduced water weight". It's what you do when you want to look harder0 -
Hmm. Energy is not a problem once you're keto/fat adpated.asflatasapancake wrote: »AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »
Care to explain, genuinely interestedChief_Rocka wrote: »I wouldn't recommend it, for the same reason I wouldn't recommend pissing into the wind or ice skating uphill.
Others may chime in who are more knowledgeable, but I would be concerned with a low carb diet on how to get energy for lifting and such. I know it's obviously possible, but it seems like an uphill battle. Things are hard enough. I wouldn't try it unless a doctor told me to go low carb or die. That's just me.
I was wondering whether a low carb ketogenic diet would affect my ability to build muscle, presuming training did not change vs high carb diet0 -
Most people on low carb already know that they do look leaner because they have less water/glycogen weight.IsaackGMOON wrote: »Googled it and found a BB.com forum post, not entirely sure if the information is valid because I have no clue on the topic... interested to see what people sayCarbohydrates serve several functions
1) They are anti-catabolic. When you ingest carbohydrates, you body won't break down protein for energy.
2) They increase insulin output. This is a good thing since insulin is the MOST ANABOLIC HORMONE in your body
No harm in sticking with your CKD if it is working for you, but in no way, shape or form is a CKD even close to ideal for mass building.
that lean bodymass you think you're seeing? It's called "reduced water weight". It's what you do when you want to look harder
Also with keto apparently having muscle sparing properties, its just insulin that could affect and inhibit to build muscle effectively on keto vs high carb (if it is as important as people are led to believe).
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Check out some of Darth Luigi's stuff (don't have any links unfortunately), he bulks on keto, but not sure if he carb-cycles. My suspicion is you will probably need to do some form of cyclical keto where you carb-load in your post workout meal to maximise muscle growth. That's just my suspicion though, and would do your homework. Think Dragonwolf on the low-carb group here and some others there shared some interesting muscle-growth stuff on the group there before, if you ask/ have a look
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Haven't ever researched the topic as it doesn't interest me.....but, protein does illicit an insulin response just like carbs do. I'm guessing it isn't the same volume of insulin being secreted into your system either. Being you're in a caloric surplus on a keto diet, my theory is you'd actually accumulate more fat than through a traditional bulk using all macros but predominately carb heavy.
Caloric surplus no matter what will make you gain fat, caloric surplus with a high fat diet will result in more fat accumulation vs. a medium/lower fat intake which accompanies a non-keto bulk.
It won't be significant but overtime I would think it would be more noticeable.
While eating fat doesn't make you fat, being in a caloric surplus does make you gain weight....muscle & fat. The more fat you ingest the more the body has to hold onto since you’re not burning off carbs as energy & storing them for glycogen replenishment.
Again, that is my understanding based on the limited amount I have read about a keto diet.
TL:DR - CARBS FTW when bulking!!!!!0 -
I imagine you could successfully body build on keto, I know there are some who do it, but I don't know if you could powerlift in keto since carbs are a much faster acting fuel and powerlifting routines are far more brutal on the body.0
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Haven't ever researched the topic as it doesn't interest me.....but, protein does illicit an insulin response just like carbs do. I'm guessing it isn't the same volume of insulin being secreted into your system either. Being you're in a caloric surplus on a keto diet, my theory is you'd actually accumulate more fat than through a traditional bulk using all macros but predominately carb heavy.
Caloric surplus no matter what will make you gain fat, caloric surplus with a high fat diet will result in more fat accumulation vs. a medium/lower fat intake which accompanies a non-keto bulk.
It won't be significant but overtime I would think it would be more noticeable.
While eating fat doesn't make you fat, being in a caloric surplus does make you gain weight....muscle & fat. The more fat you ingest the more the body has to hold onto since you’re not burning off carbs as energy & storing them for glycogen replenishment.
Again, that is my understanding based on the limited amount I have read about a keto diet.
TL:DR - CARBS FTW when bulking!!!!!Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I imagine you could successfully body build on keto, I know there are some who do it, but I don't know if you could powerlift in keto since carbs are a much faster acting fuel and powerlifting routines are far more brutal on the body.
both of these…
and I would be a wreck if I tried to bulk/lift on less then say 200 grams of carbs a day ...0 -
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/
Check out this site for info concerning weight training on a keto diet.0 -
I think it was @ninerbuff that posted about this late last year and it had a pretty good discussion going. Looks like search function is down right now, but maybe he can help you find it.0
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AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »
Hmm. Energy is not a problem once you're keto/fat adpated.asflatasapancake wrote: »AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »
Care to explain, genuinely interestedChief_Rocka wrote: »I wouldn't recommend it, for the same reason I wouldn't recommend pissing into the wind or ice skating uphill.
Others may chime in who are more knowledgeable, but I would be concerned with a low carb diet on how to get energy for lifting and such. I know it's obviously possible, but it seems like an uphill battle. Things are hard enough. I wouldn't try it unless a doctor told me to go low carb or die. That's just me.
I was wondering whether a low carb ketogenic diet would affect my ability to build muscle, presuming training did not change vs high carb diet
You should join these two groups like I did they have nothing but Low Carb/Keto oriented people who have lots of knowledge and experience to help answer your questions
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/1143-keto
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You might find this interesting:
http://fatburningman.com/chaz-branham-ketosis-carb-backloading-and-bodybuilding/0 -
This is a tough one! On a normal diet you want to consume enough grams of protein to match your body weight in pounds. However, on a keto diet, your body will turn protein into glucose which can kick you out of keto.
So really you can't up your protein without first upping your fat. This will bulk you up but make sure it's good fats and not saturated fats!!!!
Also, you guessed it, the majority of the weight you will gain will be fat but it's just like a carb bulk, you will gain fat and water to help muscle.
In theory, if you wanted to stay as lean as possible, you could just bring both fats and protein up slightly and gradually increase until you start to notice you're gaining fat and then just keep it at that level.
I'd probably do what most people are suggesting and cycle carbs. I find it best to do it every 2 weeks but everyone's different so see what works for you.
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RichSkerrett wrote: »This is a tough one! On a normal diet you want to consume enough grams of protein to match your body weight in pounds. However, on a keto diet, your body will turn protein into glucose which can kick you out of keto.
So really you can't up your protein without first upping your fat. This will bulk you up but make sure it's good fats and not saturated fats!!!!
Also, you guessed it, the majority of the weight you will gain will be fat but it's just like a carb bulk, you will gain fat and water to help muscle.
In theory, if you wanted to stay as lean as possible, you could just bring both fats and protein up slightly and gradually increase until you start to notice you're gaining fat and then just keep it at that level.
I'd probably do what most people are suggesting and cycle carbs. I find it best to do it every 2 weeks but everyone's different so see what works for you.
wut????0 -
Interesting that this topic came up this weekend on Steve Shaw's Q&A video. His advice was to do low carb, and higher protein, but not to worry about keto. Note that Steve recently started doing low carb as part of control for his Type II diabetes which was due in large part to his obesity while being on a huge bulk for powerlifting.0
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RichSkerrett wrote: »This is a tough one! On a normal diet you want to consume enough grams of protein to match your body weight in pounds. However, on a keto diet, your body will turn protein into glucose which can kick you out of keto.
So really you can't up your protein without first upping your fat. This will bulk you up but make sure it's good fats and not saturated fats!!!!
Also, you guessed it, the majority of the weight you will gain will be fat but it's just like a carb bulk, you will gain fat and water to help muscle.
In theory, if you wanted to stay as lean as possible, you could just bring both fats and protein up slightly and gradually increase until you start to notice you're gaining fat and then just keep it at that level.
I'd probably do what most people are suggesting and cycle carbs. I find it best to do it every 2 weeks but everyone's different so see what works for you.
wut????
Not sure what this means either as I had no problem doing a very clean bulk on carbs. If you are in a slight surplus and have adequite protien you should gain muscle nicely but it depends on a number of factors such on degree of caloric surplus, training intensity, your P factor, and how close you are to your genetic potential in muscle you are.0 -
I wouldn't dare try a bulk on 30 grams of carbs....guess I love the pump I get slamming carbs after the workout. You may be more successful on a carb cycling diet, but I'm #TeamDonuts for life.
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DedRepublic wrote: »I wouldn't dare try a bulk on 30 grams of carbs....guess I love the pump I get slamming carbs after the workout. You may be more successful on a carb cycling diet, but I'm #TeamDonuts for life.
Hehehe
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RichSkerrett wrote: »This is a tough one! On a normal diet you want to consume enough grams of protein to match your body weight in pounds. However, on a keto diet, your body will turn protein into glucose which can kick you out of keto.
So really you can't up your protein without first upping your fat. This will bulk you up but make sure it's good fats and not saturated fats!!!!
Also, you guessed it, the majority of the weight you will gain will be fat but it's just like a carb bulk, you will gain fat and water to help muscle.
In theory, if you wanted to stay as lean as possible, you could just bring both fats and protein up slightly and gradually increase until you start to notice you're gaining fat and then just keep it at that level.
I'd probably do what most people are suggesting and cycle carbs. I find it best to do it every 2 weeks but everyone's different so see what works for you.
wut????
Well, the statement that too much protein can throw you out of keto is right, and then it went downhill... I have no experience bulking so I'll defer to others.
I agree with the theory that bulking on keto may be hard. If nothing else, keto makes it easy to lose because it has a very high satiation (is that a word?). Getting a ton of calories on mostly fat may be difficult for you. And it's not required to keep lean (as others mentioned, that's from keeping to a smaller surplus).
If you want to try keto, good luck to you! There are ways to help get calories in like bullet proof coffee that could really help by providing fats but not much volume. I've never tried it (sounds gross to me), but a lot of people say that it just gets super frothy, and it's tasty (apparently the key is that you have to blend it). And butter and oil on everything.0 -
I strongly recommend you research Dr. Volek's and Dr. Phinney's work on nutritional ketosis. Their books, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" and "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" explain in detailed but digestible terms why and how it is possible to build muscular mass on a prolonged state of nutritional ketosis.
I've been on a strict ketogenic diet for seven months now (under 30g of carbs daily), been on a regular lifting program for nearly three of those months, and I'm definitely building muscle. Now, I'm new at lifting, so a big part of my gains are probably "newbie gains," but I'm definitely gaining. I'm losing fat at a much higher rate, of course, but gaining muscle all the same.
Based on all the research and reading I've done in these past months (including Drs. Phinney and Volek's work), the gist of the "Fat vs. Carb" debate seems to come down to this: worrying about carbs when on nutritional ketosis is like worrying about diesel when you're running a gasoline-based engine. Carb-loading is only relevant when your body is using glucose and glycogen as main fuel, which is not the case while in ketosis. This is what I've understood, anyway, especially when considering the reported absence of the "hitting the wall" effect among ketotic athletes during the research studies.
Drs. Volek and Phinney do a much better job at explaining, but I hope I could help a bit.
A final note: whether a certain program / diet / system works ultimately comes down to each individual. There may be certain aspects of a program that might not work as well as you'd like, and certain others that work beautifully. The only way to make certain something works for you is to try it out for a short period of time and monitor your reactions and progress. Keto has decidedly worked well for me both for losing fat and building muscle, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work as well for others.
Happy journey to a healthy self!0 -
Veronicabpire wrote: »I strongly recommend you research Dr. Volek's and Dr. Phinney's work on nutritional ketosis. Their books, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" and "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" explain in detailed but digestible terms why and how it is possible to build muscular mass on a prolonged state of nutritional ketosis.
I've been on a strict ketogenic diet for seven months now (under 30g of carbs daily), been on a regular lifting program for nearly three of those months, and I'm definitely building muscle. Now, I'm new at lifting, so a big part of my gains are probably "newbie gains," but I'm definitely gaining. I'm losing fat at a much higher rate, of course, but gaining muscle all the same.
Based on all the research and reading I've done in these past months (including Drs. Phinney and Volek's work), the gist of the "Fat vs. Carb" debate seems to come down to this: worrying about carbs when on nutritional ketosis is like worrying about diesel when you're running a gasoline-based engine. Carb-loading is only relevant when your body is using glucose and glycogen as main fuel, which is not the case while in ketosis. This is what I've understood, anyway, especially when considering the reported absence of the "hitting the wall" effect among ketotic athletes during the research studies.
Drs. Volek and Phinney do a much better job at explaining, but I hope I could help a bit.
A final note: whether a certain program / diet / system works ultimately comes down to each individual. There may be certain aspects of a program that might not work as well as you'd like, and certain others that work beautifully. The only way to make certain something works for you is to try it out for a short period of time and monitor your reactions and progress. Keto has decidedly worked well for me both for losing fat and building muscle, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work as well for others.
Happy journey to a healthy self!
How are you determining that you are gaining muscle?
I, too, am very curious on this topic, so i am following.0 -
I know I wont be adding muscle, as I am in a reasonably heavy deficit, but my partner lost weight and gained some muscle doing keto many years ago. He isn't interested in keto now because he has food phobias and can't stand the feel of fat in his mouth, but I have been keto for 7 months and lifting the entire time.
I don't find I lack energy!
I don't have any good picture examples on hand, as I don't usually take nude pics of my partner haha. But he went from 90kg to 69kg and certainly gained muscle mass, he added plenty of cm to his arms and thighs. He was not working out in the first pic.
90kg:
69kg:
About 73kg, when he was attending at Mount Crossfit and they had a pic of him on their website. They promote low carb and paleo eating there. Think he was warming up for a clean & jerk:
He cut to about 63kg I think, then bulked, cut and bulked one more time. All on low carb. Now he doesn't care about bulking or cutting and works on strength so is a lot bigger @76kg these days.
I can't speak for my body composition but have lost 80lbs and gained some strength. I am sure I have lost muscle mass but I have not tried a bulk or cut cycle. I will be when I am closer to goal body size.
I have the luxury of working out whenever I feel like it though as a stay at home mum with her own olympic bar and plates. So I choose the time of day that I feel the best.0 -
I know I wont be adding muscle, as I am in a reasonably heavy deficit, but my partner lost weight and gained some muscle doing keto many years ago. He isn't interested in keto now because he has food phobias and can't stand the feel of fat in his mouth, but I have been keto for 7 months and lifting the entire time.
I don't find I lack energy!
I don't have any good picture examples on hand, as I don't usually take nude pics of my partner haha. But he went from 90kg to 69kg and certainly gained muscle mass, he added plenty of cm to his arms and thighs. He was not working out in the first pic.
90kg:
69kg:
About 73kg, when he was attending at Mount Crossfit and they had a pic of him on their website. They promote low carb and paleo eating there. Think he was warming up for a clean & jerk:
He cut to about 63kg I think, then bulked, cut and bulked one more time. All on low carb. Now he doesn't care about bulking or cutting and works on strength so is a lot bigger @76kg these days.
I can't speak for my body composition but have lost 80lbs and gained some strength. I am sure I have lost muscle mass but I have not tried a bulk or cut cycle. I will be when I am closer to goal body size.
I have the luxury of working out whenever I feel like it though as a stay at home mum with her own olympic bar and plates. So I choose the time of day that I feel the best.
Impressive results here. One thing you have to remember, however, is that for building muscle you want to eat higher protein but that's not really conducive of a keto diet since excess protein will get converted to carbs and, as noted before, it tends to bring people out of keto when they eat higher protein. So low carb is often the recommended version for those who want to control carbs rather than a true keto diet. I have also yet to see any convincing evidence that keto performs well in sports, particularly high energy production sports such as Olympic lifting and sprinting.
Good luck to you going forward but remember to be flexible and open minded once you've decided you are past your weight loss. You may need to find another way to maintain or bulk/cut if that's the way you want to go.0 -
Dude, if you refeed is like you are eating carbs everyday.Lets say you eat 30c 6 days and then on the seventh day you eat 1000 carbs thats 1180 carbs.Its the same *kitten* as you will eat 170 carbs everyday.Try to look at the weekly carbs total.If you like to eat high carbs just once a week its fine.Do what you love everyday and it will become something that you will enjoy doing.IF you like one refeed a week and 30 g of carbs during post workout do that, but i will recommend to eat 60 grams of carbs post workout because during workouts your body uses just 60 g of carbs.0
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You're saying your body uses 60g of carbs during a workout? What if you dont eat carbs haha. Very precise bro science.Dude, if you refeed is like you are eating carbs everyday.Lets say you eat 30c 6 days and then on the seventh day you eat 1000 carbs thats 1180 carbs.Its the same *kitten* as you will eat 170 carbs everyday.Try to look at the weekly carbs total.If you like to eat high carbs just once a week its fine.Do what you love everyday and it will become something that you will enjoy doing.IF you like one refeed a week and 30 g of carbs during post workout do that, but i will recommend to eat 60 grams of carbs post workout because during workouts your body uses just 60 g of carbs.
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AlexEtheridge1996 wrote: »
You're saying your body uses 60g of carbs during a workout? What if you dont eat carbs haha. Very precise bro science.Dude, if you refeed is like you are eating carbs everyday.Lets say you eat 30c 6 days and then on the seventh day you eat 1000 carbs thats 1180 carbs.Its the same *kitten* as you will eat 170 carbs everyday.Try to look at the weekly carbs total.If you like to eat high carbs just once a week its fine.Do what you love everyday and it will become something that you will enjoy doing.IF you like one refeed a week and 30 g of carbs during post workout do that, but i will recommend to eat 60 grams of carbs post workout because during workouts your body uses just 60 g of carbs.
If you aren't keto adapted you aren't likely to use carbs for fuel unless you have enough protein to convert to carbs, which is possible if you are on a higher protein diet and this is why low carb rather than keto is the norm for lifters. You always have some carbs in your body since there are parts of your brain that do not have mitochondria and thus can only produce ATP from the the break down of carbs.0
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