"Toning" is a deception
Replies
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We may know what they are trying to convey, but when you give the answer to help them achieve what they are vying for, the response may be opposing because the person lacks understanding of what it really means.MireyGal76 wrote: »I really don't get the big deal around using the word. When I hear someone use the word, I generally know what they want to achieve. Do I care more about their word choice than I do their end goal?
No.
Do I care if someone calls something purple vs aubergine vs violet? no.
I get where you're going and why you are doing it, but I think we do people (both ourselves and others) a disservice to get all stuck on word selection when we have a good idea as to what the person speaking meant.
Daily I speak to new/regular members. Lot of females who just do cardio and aren't getting the results they want, want info on how to "tone". First thing I'll ask them is if they eating in deficit. Second if they've ever tried lifting heavy weights. You can guess what the response is.................."Oh no, I'm not trying to get all bulky looking." I'll let them know that it will "tone" them up more and there's still apprehension, yet all the lean looking clients I have lift heavy weights. Don't get me wrong, I'll also do high rep endurance/conditioning training with many of them too, but basically lifting moderately heavy weights in general to people who just came for Zumba and cardio, doesn't come across to them as "toning".
Will we ever get rid of the terminology? Probably not. People still think to this day one can spot reduce with exercise, and we'll correct them on that. I think it's okay to tell them this too.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I just met a woman who said she wants to tone. I ask her what she means. She said lose arm fat and get stronger. No one really knows what someone is talking about when they say they want to tone.
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Don't most questions need more info though for gym workers etc? I don't know it's not my job. If someone says they want to become more muscular you would need to ask more? For more precise stuff? Or they want to get 'ripped'?0
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If someone is telling me they want to get ripped or muscular while standing in front of me I can tell them how because of what there starting point is.Don't most questions need more info though for gym workers etc? I don't know it's not my job. If someone says they want to become more muscular you would need to ask more? For more precise stuff? Or they want to get 'ripped'?
I cannot do the same for someone saying I want to tone.0 -
So the truth is, one isn't really looking for "toning". A lean look with subtle definition is usually the goal.
Not to contradict anything that was said, but I've always thought of "a lean look with subtle definition" as the definition of "toning." I've never really understood the objection to using the word. Its a word. It means improving muscle tone. That's an actual goal for some people. Maybe people have more ideas of what it means that I don't understand.
ETA:yopeeps025 wrote: »I just met a woman who said she wants to tone. I ask her what she means. She said lose arm fat and get stronger. No one really knows what someone is talking about when they say they want to tone.
Ah. I see. And yet, somehow it does come back to the definition of leaner look with subtle (or at least improved) muscle strength, definition and/or tone. I just think that if we take into account the fact that many people who use this term are at a level where strength, mass and tone are all going to improve with a little work, we can and should be forgiving of the word's use. Beyond that, if gentle correction makes you feel better and passes on knowledge, then hey, why not. It's a bit like correcting the use of "their," "they're," and "there." You most likely understood them, but its still annoying.
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PikaKnight wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »"Lean muscle" and make the muscles "longer" are a couple more that hurt the ears.
I think longer muscles actually mean something. Weight lifters tend not to have longer muscles that's why they get all that muscle bunching up in an ugly way above their shoulders. I learnt about this in yoga. When you do a headstand there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. If you do it the wrong way you would get those bunched up muscles but if you do it the right way you won't. Its been a while since i've done a headstand but i think the right way is to push into your elbows rather than clamping up around your neck to help you keep balanced.
Wow. Haven't seen someone claim yoga overrides genetics in awhile :huh:
That happened before?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »"Lean muscle" and make the muscles "longer" are a couple more that hurt the ears.
I think longer muscles actually mean something. Weight lifters tend not to have longer muscles that's why they get all that muscle bunching up in an ugly way above their shoulders. I learnt about this in yoga. When you do a headstand there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. If you do it the wrong way you would get those bunched up muscles but if you do it the right way you won't. Its been a while since i've done a headstand but i think the right way is to push into your elbows rather than clamping up around your neck to help you keep balanced.
Wow. Haven't seen someone claim yoga overrides genetics in awhile :huh:
That happened before?
Oh yeah. About a year and a half or two ago it showed up a lot. I remember quite a few posts made by various people who claimed yoga lengthened muscles.
Although this is the first I've heard of someone claiming that those who have worked on building up their traps are just causing their muscles to bunch up around their shoulders :laugh:0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »
We may know what they are trying to convey, but when you give the answer to help them achieve what they are vying for, the response may be opposing because the person lacks understanding of what it really means.MireyGal76 wrote: »I really don't get the big deal around using the word. When I hear someone use the word, I generally know what they want to achieve. Do I care more about their word choice than I do their end goal?
No.
Do I care if someone calls something purple vs aubergine vs violet? no.
I get where you're going and why you are doing it, but I think we do people (both ourselves and others) a disservice to get all stuck on word selection when we have a good idea as to what the person speaking meant.
Daily I speak to new/regular members. Lot of females who just do cardio and aren't getting the results they want, want info on how to "tone". First thing I'll ask them is if they eating in deficit. Second if they've ever tried lifting heavy weights. You can guess what the response is.................."Oh no, I'm not trying to get all bulky looking." I'll let them know that it will "tone" them up more and there's still apprehension, yet all the lean looking clients I have lift heavy weights. Don't get me wrong, I'll also do high rep endurance/conditioning training with many of them too, but basically lifting moderately heavy weights in general to people who just came for Zumba and cardio, doesn't come across to them as "toning".
Will we ever get rid of the terminology? Probably not. People still think to this day one can spot reduce with exercise, and we'll correct them on that. I think it's okay to tell them this too.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I just met a woman who said she wants to tone. I ask her what she means. She said lose arm fat and get stronger. No one really knows what someone is talking about when they say they want to tone.
Proper communication is ensuring that message sent = message received and visa versa. With the prevalence of multiple cultures with multiple base languages, it is vital that we seek to understand each other REGARDLESS of the words we choose to convey ourselves with? As a service provider, you can't assume your client (or prospect) is adequately stating their requirements, you always have to dig.
Getting upset that someone says "toning" instead of "increase muscle tone" is hugely counterproductive and just shuts all communication down. (Note: not saying that you, ninerbuff or yopeeps, are getting upset- but there are some here that do get pretty riled up)
Also... You don't HAVE to lift heavy to "get toned". I became very lean and quite muscular using a combination of eating at a deficit along with body weight exercises, boxing, and running. (To the point where people assumed that I was a heavy lifter). It's only recently that I started lifting heavy because I want MORE muscle. Did it take time? yes, did it work? indeed it did.3 -
on an aside... I equate the use of "toned" to the use of "moist". Moist is a real word, but many will try to kill you if you use it. LOL0
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MireyGal76 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »
We may know what they are trying to convey, but when you give the answer to help them achieve what they are vying for, the response may be opposing because the person lacks understanding of what it really means.MireyGal76 wrote: »I really don't get the big deal around using the word. When I hear someone use the word, I generally know what they want to achieve. Do I care more about their word choice than I do their end goal?
No.
Do I care if someone calls something purple vs aubergine vs violet? no.
I get where you're going and why you are doing it, but I think we do people (both ourselves and others) a disservice to get all stuck on word selection when we have a good idea as to what the person speaking meant.
Daily I speak to new/regular members. Lot of females who just do cardio and aren't getting the results they want, want info on how to "tone". First thing I'll ask them is if they eating in deficit. Second if they've ever tried lifting heavy weights. You can guess what the response is.................."Oh no, I'm not trying to get all bulky looking." I'll let them know that it will "tone" them up more and there's still apprehension, yet all the lean looking clients I have lift heavy weights. Don't get me wrong, I'll also do high rep endurance/conditioning training with many of them too, but basically lifting moderately heavy weights in general to people who just came for Zumba and cardio, doesn't come across to them as "toning".
Will we ever get rid of the terminology? Probably not. People still think to this day one can spot reduce with exercise, and we'll correct them on that. I think it's okay to tell them this too.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I just met a woman who said she wants to tone. I ask her what she means. She said lose arm fat and get stronger. No one really knows what someone is talking about when they say they want to tone.
Proper communication is ensuring that message sent = message received and visa versa. With the prevalence of multiple cultures with multiple base languages, it is vital that we seek to understand each other REGARDLESS of the words we choose to convey ourselves with? As a service provider, you can't assume your client (or prospect) is adequately stating their requirements, you always have to dig.
Getting upset that someone says "toning" instead of "increase muscle tone" is hugely counterproductive and just shuts all communication down. (Note: not saying that you, ninerbuff or yopeeps, are getting upset- but there are some here that do get pretty riled up)
Also... You don't HAVE to lift heavy to "get toned". I became very lean and quite muscular using a combination of eating at a deficit along with body weight exercises, boxing, and running. (To the point where people assumed that I was a heavy lifter). It's only recently that I started lifting heavy because I want MORE muscle. Did it take time? yes, did it work? indeed it did.
People thought I was strong when I was weak with a lot of fat and no muscle definition. People in general are just ignorant in the fitness and health world.
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yopeeps025 wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »
We may know what they are trying to convey, but when you give the answer to help them achieve what they are vying for, the response may be opposing because the person lacks understanding of what it really means.MireyGal76 wrote: »I really don't get the big deal around using the word. When I hear someone use the word, I generally know what they want to achieve. Do I care more about their word choice than I do their end goal?
No.
Do I care if someone calls something purple vs aubergine vs violet? no.
I get where you're going and why you are doing it, but I think we do people (both ourselves and others) a disservice to get all stuck on word selection when we have a good idea as to what the person speaking meant.
Daily I speak to new/regular members. Lot of females who just do cardio and aren't getting the results they want, want info on how to "tone". First thing I'll ask them is if they eating in deficit. Second if they've ever tried lifting heavy weights. You can guess what the response is.................."Oh no, I'm not trying to get all bulky looking." I'll let them know that it will "tone" them up more and there's still apprehension, yet all the lean looking clients I have lift heavy weights. Don't get me wrong, I'll also do high rep endurance/conditioning training with many of them too, but basically lifting moderately heavy weights in general to people who just came for Zumba and cardio, doesn't come across to them as "toning".
Will we ever get rid of the terminology? Probably not. People still think to this day one can spot reduce with exercise, and we'll correct them on that. I think it's okay to tell them this too.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I just met a woman who said she wants to tone. I ask her what she means. She said lose arm fat and get stronger. No one really knows what someone is talking about when they say they want to tone.
Proper communication is ensuring that message sent = message received and visa versa. With the prevalence of multiple cultures with multiple base languages, it is vital that we seek to understand each other REGARDLESS of the words we choose to convey ourselves with? As a service provider, you can't assume your client (or prospect) is adequately stating their requirements, you always have to dig.
Getting upset that someone says "toning" instead of "increase muscle tone" is hugely counterproductive and just shuts all communication down. (Note: not saying that you, ninerbuff or yopeeps, are getting upset- but there are some here that do get pretty riled up)
Also... You don't HAVE to lift heavy to "get toned". I became very lean and quite muscular using a combination of eating at a deficit along with body weight exercises, boxing, and running. (To the point where people assumed that I was a heavy lifter). It's only recently that I started lifting heavy because I want MORE muscle. Did it take time? yes, did it work? indeed it did.
People thought I was strong when I was weak with a lot of fat and no muscle definition. People in general are just ignorant in the fitness and health world.
by "people", I include well known heavy lifters on MFP.
But yes. I agree with what I bolded above :laugh:0 -
Add me guys0
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Nope because the description doesn't exist. "Toning" originated from "muscle tone" which actually is a legit definition in the dictionary.I have no doubt that the industry turned it into marketing drivel, but "toning" as a description or a goal does exist. Toning comes from the word for "tension", you want to firm your body up without increasing size aka build muscle+lose fat.
Think about it: If I was deemed muscular, I wouldn't be "muscling" to get it. Or if I was deemed fast, I wouldn't be "fastering" to achieve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You're just playing with words. Yes, marketing and what have you. If "selfie" found its way into the dictionary leave "toning" alone, it helps most people in the gym.... Also, hundreds of words in the English language were made up by Shakespeare because he couldn't think of a word to fit in with his word count/rhyme (whatever). And we ise them without even knowing. Bad is the new good. "LOL" exists now and everyone knows what I mean by it.1 -
Your viewpoint. You don't do what I do and have lots of females saying they don't want to lift weights or do resistant training because they are afraid to gain muscle, but that pretty much what you do when you "tone". I know the history of how the word came about, so if you can accept the fitness industry's stance at the time of being dishonest with females and trying to explain it was a waste of time, more power to you.
Nope because the description doesn't exist. "Toning" originated from "muscle tone" which actually is a legit definition in the dictionary.I have no doubt that the industry turned it into marketing drivel, but "toning" as a description or a goal does exist. Toning comes from the word for "tension", you want to firm your body up without increasing size aka build muscle+lose fat.
Think about it: If I was deemed muscular, I wouldn't be "muscling" to get it. Or if I was deemed fast, I wouldn't be "fastering" to achieve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You're just playing with words. Yes, marketing and what have you. If "selfie" found its way into the dictionary leave "toning" alone, it helps most people in the gym.... Also, hundreds of words in the English language were made up by Shakespeare because he couldn't think of a word to fit in with his word count/rhyme (whatever). And we ise them without even knowing. Bad is the new good. "LOL" exists now and everyone knows what I mean by it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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What's worse is when I have conversations with yoga instructors and refute the "lengthening" muscles claim with actual science and backed by journals of medicine and the reply is "well Western medicine doesn't appy here". What?PikaKnight wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »"Lean muscle" and make the muscles "longer" are a couple more that hurt the ears.
I think longer muscles actually mean something. Weight lifters tend not to have longer muscles that's why they get all that muscle bunching up in an ugly way above their shoulders. I learnt about this in yoga. When you do a headstand there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. If you do it the wrong way you would get those bunched up muscles but if you do it the right way you won't. Its been a while since i've done a headstand but i think the right way is to push into your elbows rather than clamping up around your neck to help you keep balanced.
Wow. Haven't seen someone claim yoga overrides genetics in awhile :huh:
That happened before?
Oh yeah. About a year and a half or two ago it showed up a lot. I remember quite a few posts made by various people who claimed yoga lengthened muscles.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
What's worse is when I have conversations with yoga instructors and refute the "lengthening" muscles claim with actual science and backed by journals of medicine and the reply is "well Western medicine doesn't appy here". What?PikaKnight wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »"Lean muscle" and make the muscles "longer" are a couple more that hurt the ears.
I think longer muscles actually mean something. Weight lifters tend not to have longer muscles that's why they get all that muscle bunching up in an ugly way above their shoulders. I learnt about this in yoga. When you do a headstand there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. If you do it the wrong way you would get those bunched up muscles but if you do it the right way you won't. Its been a while since i've done a headstand but i think the right way is to push into your elbows rather than clamping up around your neck to help you keep balanced.
Wow. Haven't seen someone claim yoga overrides genetics in awhile :huh:
That happened before?
Oh yeah. About a year and a half or two ago it showed up a lot. I remember quite a few posts made by various people who claimed yoga lengthened muscles.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Genetics is so old school..... >.>0 -
Lol, eventually gene doping will be a sellable commodity. Buy or remove the genes.PikaKnight wrote: »
What's worse is when I have conversations with yoga instructors and refute the "lengthening" muscles claim with actual science and backed by journals of medicine and the reply is "well Western medicine doesn't appy here". What?PikaKnight wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »PikaKnight wrote: »Patttience wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »"Lean muscle" and make the muscles "longer" are a couple more that hurt the ears.
I think longer muscles actually mean something. Weight lifters tend not to have longer muscles that's why they get all that muscle bunching up in an ugly way above their shoulders. I learnt about this in yoga. When you do a headstand there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. If you do it the wrong way you would get those bunched up muscles but if you do it the right way you won't. Its been a while since i've done a headstand but i think the right way is to push into your elbows rather than clamping up around your neck to help you keep balanced.
Wow. Haven't seen someone claim yoga overrides genetics in awhile :huh:
That happened before?
Oh yeah. About a year and a half or two ago it showed up a lot. I remember quite a few posts made by various people who claimed yoga lengthened muscles.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Genetics is so old school..... >.>
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Had another conversation with this with a new trainer in our gym.
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Oh lord the number of conversations I have with my friends about not wanting to look bulky and wanting to look toned. If only it was as simple as picking up a barbell and magically seeing muscle.
Toned is just a confusing works to me in the context of fitness. As is the word bulky. It’s all so subjective.
Depending on who I talk to I look “too skinny” or my arms look “toned. “ ( which I think means muscular, but I’m not sure). Or I need to be careful else I’ll “bulk up. “
I just nodded at the last comment and re racked the weights...0 -
Great contribution.
Only beef is your handle.
(Go Hawks!) 0 -
"Toned" has been in common usage for 40 years, and most women have a fairly consistent image of what that looks like. It's a combination of muscle development and body fat that produces an appearance of being lean but not skinny, skinny-fat, or muscular.
As a trainer, you should show her how to achieve it, not tell her she's an idiot for using the wrong words.8 -
I totally get why it frustrates you @ninerbuff and I applaud you for trying to get the word out about the truth of females lifting. But honestly to me, it's just a descriptive word that the majority of the world understands what it means to an extent. Like someone else said, it's all subjective. I look at it as no different than bulky or ripped or all the other words that we use to describe a "look". They are just descriptive words for a look that can mean different things to different people. Muscles may not "tone", but they don't "rip" either in the way people use the word. They tear and repair in growth, or they badly tear in the case of injury, but that's not what people are thinking of when they say ripped.
"I want to get toned." "I want to look toned." These are common descriptions for wanting to look relatively lean with slight, but not much muscle definition. - A swimsuit model for example. Probably in the range of 18-22% BF with low to moderate muscle mass for a female.
'I don't want to get bulky" "I don't want to look bulky" - Common descriptions for having higher than average muscle mass along with average to slightly higher body fat. Ex. A bodybuilder at the end of a bulk phase. Could possibly mean to some highly defined muscle definition. Probably in the range of 25% BF with high muscle mass for a female.
"I want to get ripped." "I want to look ripped." - Common descriptions for wanting to be ultra lean, possibly contest prep ready. Could also be used in conjunction with wanting higher levels of muscle mass with highly defined musculature, vascularity and at or below essential levels of body fat. Probably in the range of 12-15% BF with average to high muscle mass for a female.12 -
Ah, well let's see if we can beat the Ravens this week! Our last meeting was the best game of the year so far and looking forward to game 16!jhanleybrown wrote: »Great contribution.
Only beef is your handle.
(Go Hawks!)
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Bump of another zombie thread
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I'm hoping to get some chiseling or sculpting in this week 😂. But I'll still call it toning because like a fine instrument, I want to be toned.1
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I still use the word toned. It just means gaining sexy muscle while keeping body fat at around 20%.
I hip thrust 260 lbs currently and I’m working on my barbell squat. I’m not afraid of lifting heavy and I would still call myself toned.
You call toned ‘muscular but not defined and not bulky’. Toned is one syllable and expels less energy to say 😋6 -
I always kinda giggle at "toned", personally. This thread was an interesting read.
I remember older ppl saying to me " you just want to be toned not muscular". I guess because I was a woman. And I just sort of scratched my head at that when I was very young. Now that I lift and some of those ppl still have that mindset I say flat out, I lift heavy because I like to. I like my muscle weather it's *toned* or not I don't care. I don't use that word myself, though. I am muscular. Period. 🤷🤷.
Great thread. Thanks for reviving.2 -
I still get the occasional "what are good toning exercises?" and just bite my tongue so there's no long drawn out discussion. Thanks for reading.I always kinda giggle at "toned", personally. This thread was an interesting read.
I remember older ppl saying to me " you just want to be toned not muscular". I guess because I was a woman. And I just sort of scratched my head at that when I was very young. Now that I lift and some of those ppl still have that mindset I say flat out, I lift heavy because I like to. I like my muscle weather it's *toned* or not I don't care. I don't use that word myself, though. I am muscular. Period. 🤷🤷.
Great thread. Thanks for reviving.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 2 -
I still get the occasional "what are good toning exercises?" and just bite my tongue so there's no long drawn out discussion. Thanks for reading.
[/quote]
I see no harm in using the word 'tone' as a descriptor of results. It's legitimate term one can use. I've heard men use the term as well for themselves.
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I see no harm in using the word 'tone' as a descriptor of results. It's ILLlegitimate term one can use. I've heard men use the term as well for themselves.
[/quote]
Fixed it for you
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