Keto--what are your thoughts?
Replies
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Ok, nevermind.0
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
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Do whatever helps you comply
The bolded is the significant part. The diet, IMO is over-emphasized...stevencloser wrote: »
It depends on how the people involved in the study were training. You cannot have the same amount of energy for sport ... So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.
The diet is a tool, off course.
I choose keto for a simple reason: I had a lot of energy stored as fat and I was looking for a way to use it as the main source of energy.
Converting fat in ketones is the only way to do that, AFAIK.
Any diet is a tool. Again, IMO the diets are over-emphasized and the training under-emphasized.
Keto is not the only way to burn body fat...
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false). So because of this someone doing keto can consistently eat at an extreme deficit and yet do well with intense exercise without risking muscle (which I also believe is false).0 -
Um, no. When in a calorie deficit the body burns fat to make up the difference. Protein catabolism is a rather complex, difficult process, so the body doesn't go to that until it needs to, which is either when the body doesn't have enough stored fat to support the deficit, when the body has burned all the fat it is capable of in a given time period, or there is insufficient glucose intake to maintain organ function.stevencloser wrote: »
It depends on how the people involved in the study were training. You cannot have the same amount of energy for sport ... So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.0 -
No. If you are taking in adequate protein and resistance training your body will not break down muscle for energy...So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false).
I know that everyone can burn fat for energy.
But there doesn't exist a body that can use 100% of fatty acids directly as energy during training.
Depending on intensity, you burn more glucose or fat. The more you activity is intense, then the mixture of glucose and fat that you are using shifts to carbohydrates.
Ketosis allows using ketone bodies (previously produced from fat) instead of carbohydrates. So the mixture you use in ketosis is always fat + ketones.
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stevencloser wrote: »If we mean the same one, where in the study does it say the women didn't lose any fat?
In the supplementary data tables they break out the genders. The fat loss by DEXA in women was not statistically significant. The filename is called mmc2 or mmc3 from memory.
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
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The body will switch energy pathways as it needs to sustain the given activity of choice. Being in ketosis has less to do with that then the activity. Once again, the diet is overemphasized...lemurcat12 wrote: »I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false).
I know that everyone can burn fat for energy.
But there doesn't exist a body that can use 100% of fatty acids directly as energy during training.
Depending on intensity, you burn more glucose or fat. The more you activity is intense, then the mixture of glucose and fat that you are using shifts to carbohydrates.
Ketosis allows using ketone bodies (previously produced from fat) instead of carbohydrates. So the mixture you use in ketosis is always fat + ketones.0 -
Right, in the short term. Over the long term, hardly any difference at all. So once again, choose the diet that helps you comply.
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote:Again I tried this for pain management and in the first 30 days it worked very well and continues to do so. Of course getting instant gratification I would have kept doing if it had been hard, not quick or convenient.
May I ask is that arthritic pain you speak of? and you are not getting that pain anymore since starting keto? That is amazing.
@coco_bee 30 days after I cut out foods with sugars/grains my arthritis joint/muscle pain dropped from a subjective 7-8 to 2-3 on a 1-10 scale. My doctor's appoint was 7 Nov 2014 to start Enbrel injections and I was able to say thanks but no thanks to Enbrel because I when <50 grams of carbs daily cold turkey the month before.
@Asher_Ethan thanks for sharing the awesome story about your mom's 10 year keto success story.
@psulemon apparently lean body mass loss (protein sparing) is a feature of keto eating and does not require an increase in protein from one's diet. The four methods of protein sparing proposed are at the end of the study below. It sounds like magic to some but the article deals with the science to some degree. It is a complex subject but seems to spare protein to some extent unlike other types of diet.
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/9
Since I have found no way to subscribe or get email notices when someone posts to a thread where I posted like the mainstream forums please just use the @GaleHawkins so I can get back to read your post thoughts.
Thanks @galehawkins but you just proved my point.
"Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein. "
Keto diets or low carb diets are ONLY protein sparing if, and only if, protein levels are adequate.
I don't think anyone is disputing that.
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And if anything you said was remotely true, why aren't there any cases that demonstrate Keto's ability to a more effect long term weight/fat loss strategy?
Because there aren't studies that consider keto as a long-term diet.Do you actually have any studies that justify your position?
Simply consider what happens in a one-month starving, thanks to ketosis.
So essentially, you are just making stuff up and making wild assumptions?
And your body will get energy from either carbs or fat. Both of which your body will constantly use all day. It's not a one or other. So during exercise, you might burn glycogen, but during rest, your body fat. In keto, you burn body fat or dietary fat. So it's not a magical body fat burner like you can on saying.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730865/
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
proved to be wrong. really?
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that0 -
Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.0
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christianlee100 wrote: »Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled.
Why? There are people in ketosis for life.christianlee100 wrote: »It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
Healthier from what point of view?
Form me is ketosis simply a better way to manage my energies. I'm not using it for mere weight loss (but I've lost the last 14 pounds in ketosis).0 -
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
The LC diet had less protein, fibre, calories and mass of food per day in the crossover study.http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44/T2.expansion.html
so you can't hide behind any of them.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html appears to be a 50% carbohydrate diet, so you've lost me there. Seems you are clinically incapable of accepting the evidence that in ketogenic diets appetite is suppressed despite several items of evidence so I think we're done here.0 -
Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that
The study linked was lost on me :-
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that
What does this have to do with kidneys?0 -
Right, in the short term. Over the long term, hardly any difference at all.
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
They say "in the short term" because the study was for 4 weeks.
Where's your evidence for the long term being different ? There's no sign of convergence in the two trends.
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Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
The LC diet had less protein, fibre, calories and mass of food per day in the crossover study.http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44/T2.expansion.html
so you can't hide behind any of them.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html appears to be a 50% carbohydrate diet, so you've lost me there. Seems you are clinically incapable of accepting the evidence that in ketogenic diets appetite is suppressed despite several items of evidence so I think we're done here.
Any diet high in protein is going to increase satiety (I will admit to that, even if that isn't how it came off above). That was the purpose of the study I posted. Even with 50% carbs, the increase in protein had a subsequent increase in satiety.
My initial argument was that just because you are in Keto or doing low carb, doesn't mean you can run a large deficit than other diets. I believe that is how we spiraled down this rabbit hole.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote:Again I tried this for pain management and in the first 30 days it worked very well and continues to do so. Of course getting instant gratification I would have kept doing if it had been hard, not quick or convenient.
May I ask is that arthritic pain you speak of? and you are not getting that pain anymore since starting keto? That is amazing.
@coco_bee 30 days after I cut out foods with sugars/grains my arthritis joint/muscle pain dropped from a subjective 7-8 to 2-3 on a 1-10 scale. My doctor's appoint was 7 Nov 2014 to start Enbrel injections and I was able to say thanks but no thanks to Enbrel because I when <50 grams of carbs daily cold turkey the month before.
@Asher_Ethan thanks for sharing the awesome story about your mom's 10 year keto success story.
@psulemon apparently lean body mass loss (protein sparing) is a feature of keto eating and does not require an increase in protein from one's diet. The four methods of protein sparing proposed are at the end of the study below. It sounds like magic to some but the article deals with the science to some degree. It is a complex subject but seems to spare protein to some extent unlike other types of diet.
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/9
Since I have found no way to subscribe or get email notices when someone posts to a thread where I posted like the mainstream forums please just use the @GaleHawkins so I can get back to read your post thoughts.
Thanks @galehawkins but you just proved my point.
"Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein. "
Keto diets or low carb diets are ONLY protein sparing if, and only if, protein levels are adequate.
I don't think anyone is disputing that.
Don't know if you followed the trail, but that statement was to address the belowKetosis is "designed" to minimize lean mass loss and to maximize fat mass loss. It is the way it works, you can find a lot of documentation.
My argument was that any diet with adequate protein (generally .8-1g per lb of lean body mass) is protein sparing. Being on Keto doesn't automatically make it protein sparing unless protein is at a sufficient level.0 -
I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc0
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Folks we have to live with the fact that today there are more unknowns about how the human body deals with food sources than that is "known". Even the 'known" is changing year by year.
I do Keto for pain management because it has worked well for the last year. It is known to be a safe long term eating lifestyle. I was going to die sooner than later if I did not break my carb addiction forever.
Weight is drifting down. Triglycerides level is drifting down. HDL cholesterol numbers are moving up. These are good side effects. The LDL cholesterol level jumping up has the doctor freaking out. The small size particles become the large 'fluffy' LDL on LCHF diets which is a good type like HDL numbers going up it good. This is a good side effect of Low Carb High Fat eating as well.
Keep in mind the difference between the 'Bad' LDL and 'Good' LDL are only about 2 micron in size.
LCHF may not be for others.
As long as my risks of heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, Type 2 diabetes, etc are dropping like a rock in my mind this old man will be eating LCHF until new data requires a new eating lifestyle decision or I lose my mind and go back to living on carbs. 0 -
I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc
My opinion is that keto is fine.
The need of some people on keto to have it proclaimed the best of all possible diets is bizarre.
That keto controls hunger for some people with hunger issues is likely true, but doesn't seem all that relevant to people without hunger issues.
An overly aggressive deficit is a bad idea, whether one is doing keto or not. That's especially true if one is trying to improve athletic performance/is exercising intensely on a regular basis.0 -
christianlee100 wrote: »Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
Many people cycle on and off of ketosis. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many go back to high or moderate carbs though. From what I see, most people who did ketosis, and benefited, tend to keep carbs low.
Intermittent fasting... that's pretty cyclical too. Just a shorter cycle. A good deal of keto'ers do IF too. They're pretty complimentary.0 -
christianlee100 wrote: »Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
Many people cycle on and off of ketosis. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many go back to high or moderate carbs though. From what I see, most people who did ketosis, and benefited, tend to keep carbs low.
Intermittent fasting... that's pretty cyclical too. Just a shorter cycle. A good deal of keto'ers do IF too. They're pretty complimentary.
I love you for your mind!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc
My opinion is that keto is fine.
The need of some people on keto to have it proclaimed the best of all possible diets is bizarre.
That keto controls hunger for some people with hunger issues is likely true, but doesn't seem all that relevant to people without hunger issues.
An overly aggressive deficit is a bad idea, whether one is doing keto or not. That's especially true if one is trying to improve athletic performance/is exercising intensely on a regular basis.
It`s controls their appetite because they eat high fat.Fat does make you satisfied.
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