Abs abs please i want tight core
Replies
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Also, if you're not taking in any good fats, you'll burn less fat overall.
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Oh my really? This week i totally eliminate my nuts intake because i went overboard eating them for the past 2 weeks. But i find that when I ate nuts i tend to be more slimmer or is it just me?!0 -
repsrequired wrote: »doralim1990 wrote: »i do abs workout EVERYDAY : 4 sets of 6 different exercises (crunches,russian twist, mountain climber, bike crunches etc), 20 rep each. But still my abs are flabby as hell. I am not saying they're big, they just not toned enough.
I did lose a little bit of weight (3lbs) and toned up my legs. But my abs are kinda "jiggly". Any recommendation?
I pretty much eat 80% clean.
Try Hip Hop abs with Shaun T
I have been doing it for two weeks and already feel the difference
Hi ya, do you buy the dvd or can you get in on youtube?0 -
The problem with these public posts is that everyone always veers away from the topic of what he/she wants or is asking for (advice) and ends up talking about their own problems. Doralim the fact about burning fat is you have to get to what's called a calorie deficit. That's where you burn more calories then you actually eat throughout the day. You can burn 3000 calories a day doing cardio, biking or whatever but if your eating say 3500 calories, you won't burn fat. You actually have to burn almost 2000 calories more than what you intake everyday just to burn one pound of body fat. And not be judgemental but to what the personal trainer niner said but if you think you can burn an extra 2000 calories a day and burn more fat by not doing cardio, it's not happening. Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids. A 300 pound person can do ab crunches till their blue in the face and you won't see any results until you lose weight and body fat. Good luck to you Doralim. And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.0
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8 hours of sleep burns about 600 calories (for my stats). Just by staying alive and breathing you're burning way more calories than most people burn through exercise additionally. And exercise doesn't use fat as an energy source primarily but instead your glycogen. That's what he said.The problem with these public posts is that everyone always veers away from the topic of what he/she wants or is asking for (advice) and ends up talking about their own problems. Doralim the fact about burning fat is you have to get to what's called a calorie deficit. That's where you burn more calories then you actually eat throughout the day. You can burn 3000 calories a day doing cardio, biking or whatever but if your eating say 3500 calories, you won't burn fat. You actually have to burn almost 2000 calories more than what you intake everyday just to burn one pound of body fat. And not be judgemental but to what the personal trainer niner said but if you think you can burn an extra 2000 calories a day and burn more fat by not doing cardio, it's not happening. Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids. A 300 pound person can do ab crunches till their blue in the face and you won't see any results until you lose weight and body fat. Good luck to you Doralim. And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
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@stevencloserstevencloser wrote: »
8 hours of sleep burns about 600 calories (for my stats). Just by staying alive and breathing you're burning way more calories than most people burn through exercise additionally. And exercise doesn't use fat as an energy source primarily but instead your glycogen. That's what he said.The problem with these public posts is that everyone always veers away from the topic of what he/she wants or is asking for (advice) and ends up talking about their own problems. Doralim the fact about burning fat is you have to get to what's called a calorie deficit. That's where you burn more calories then you actually eat throughout the day. You can burn 3000 calories a day doing cardio, biking or whatever but if your eating say 3500 calories, you won't burn fat. You actually have to burn almost 2000 calories more than what you intake everyday just to burn one pound of body fat. And not be judgemental but to what the personal trainer niner said but if you think you can burn an extra 2000 calories a day and burn more fat by not doing cardio, it's not happening. Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids. A 300 pound person can do ab crunches till their blue in the face and you won't see any results until you lose weight and body fat. Good luck to you Doralim. And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
Not strictly true. Exercise is fuelled by a blend of fuels for the most part. The lower the intensity the higher proportion of fat, the higher intensity the higher proportion of carbohydrate.
It's only at the extreme low and high end of intensity that you burn all fat or all carbs.
As an example (from my tested respiritory exchange ratio):
When cycling very steadily (90w of power, sub 100bpm HR, equivalent to a gentle/slow ride about 10-12mph outdoors) I'm getting the vast majority of my energy from fat and a little from carbohydrate. So I could cycle all day at that intensity.
At 180w (around 140bpm) the vast majority is coming from carbohydrate. The kind of intensity for a fast two hour ride. Push much beyond 2 hours without taking on carbs I will risk glycogen depletion - "bonking".
Somewhere between workrates of 180w and 210w I switch from aerobic to anaerobic metabolism.
(By the way for clarity - virtually no relevance to weight loss from the fuel used at the time of exercise but loads of relevance to exercise performance!).0 -
@stevencloserstevencloser wrote: »
8 hours of sleep burns about 600 calories (for my stats). Just by staying alive and breathing you're burning way more calories than most people burn through exercise additionally. And exercise doesn't use fat as an energy source primarily but instead your glycogen. That's what he said.The problem with these public posts is that everyone always veers away from the topic of what he/she wants or is asking for (advice) and ends up talking about their own problems. Doralim the fact about burning fat is you have to get to what's called a calorie deficit. That's where you burn more calories then you actually eat throughout the day. You can burn 3000 calories a day doing cardio, biking or whatever but if your eating say 3500 calories, you won't burn fat. You actually have to burn almost 2000 calories more than what you intake everyday just to burn one pound of body fat. And not be judgemental but to what the personal trainer niner said but if you think you can burn an extra 2000 calories a day and burn more fat by not doing cardio, it's not happening. Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids. A 300 pound person can do ab crunches till their blue in the face and you won't see any results until you lose weight and body fat. Good luck to you Doralim. And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
Not strictly true. Exercise is fuelled by a blend of fuels for the most part. The lower the intensity the higher proportion of fat, the higher intensity the higher proportion of carbohydrate.
It's only at the extreme low and high end of intensity that you burn all fat or all carbs.
As an example (from my tested respiritory exchange ratio):
When cycling very steadily (90w of power, sub 100bpm HR, equivalent to a gentle/slow ride about 10-12mph outdoors) I'm getting the vast majority of my energy from fat and a little from carbohydrate. So I could cycle all day at that intensity.
At 180w (around 140bpm) the vast majority is coming from carbohydrate. The kind of intensity for a fast two hour ride. Push much beyond 2 hours without taking on carbs I will risk glycogen depletion - "bonking".
Somewhere between workrates of 180w and 210w I switch from aerobic to anaerobic metabolism.
(By the way for clarity - virtually no relevance to weight loss from the fuel used at the time of exercise but loads of relevance to exercise performance!).
Aye, the depleted glycogen is going to get replaced later on from your dietary carbs and that will in turn lead to a deficit that burns fat.
But the high intensity exercise itself (mostly) doesn't use fat, that's what I got ninerbuff was saying.0 -
I didn't take it personally, sorry if it came across that way. And I even agree that cardio/exercise is not necessary for fat loss. If a person is obese and is eating 4000 calories, then yes, all they have to do is eat less.
I've just now realized I was refuting your original first response and somehow you're taking it personally.Traveler120 wrote: »Well, if someone is already eating at a certain level (which is why I told OP 'if your diet is on point') AND, they don't want to or can't eat less (because they're already eating less) AND, they still want to lose more fat, THEN yes they NEED to do cardio/exercise to burn fat because where else is your deficit going to come from. Niner said you don't need to and he/she was wrong.
Let's look at this objectively: I've been doing this for 30 years and almost 20 years as a professional helping hundreds of people personally to lose/gain/maintain weight and fat. I've worked with obese, overweight, normal, and underweight people. I've studied physiology, kinesology, nutrition and biology along with some other sciences. Now why in the world would I DIRECTLY give someone wrong information? Because I want them to fail?
As I've mentioned, you can disagree, but doesn't mean your opinion is correct.
The scenario we had was with someone who'd already cut back severely (1200). And there are also people like me and others who would prefer to eat a reasonable amount of food 1700 (healthy of course) which for me at 125 lbs would be close to maintenance calories. So if I still want to lose weight then cardio/exercise is the only option I have. The only issue I had was the generalized statement that cardio/exercise isn't necessary which coming from a professional like yourself, can be confusing, especially in light of the fact that those of us opting for exercise as our primary focus, we're losing fat just fine without the necessity of severe calorie restriction.0 -
I definitely have to incorporate cardio just because I like eating large quantities of food.
OP, you said you've been losing for 1.5 months. Your first post said that you have lost 3lbs, is that in the 1.5 period? That's likely a good rate for you. As mentioned, if you are having problems sticking to your calorie deficit, you could add in some longer steady state cardio to increase the amount of calories you can eat back.
As for the abs, it really is about lower body fat. I didn't see if you said how tall you were and your current weight. If you're at a healthy weight, you might want to look into recomposition. You would eat either at a very slight deficit or maintenance and do a progressive lifting program.
You said you did fitness blender, so if you don't belong to a gym, you can look into body weight programs like you are your own gym or convict condition. Or if you want to try lifting weights, I really recommend reading the starting strength book (tons of info on form and the lifts themselves), and there are several good beginning programs such as starting strength (from the previously mentioned book), strong lifts, strong curves, ICF 5x5, etc.
Some good information on recomposition:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat0 -
doralim1990 wrote: »i do abs workout EVERYDAY : 4 sets of 6 different exercises (crunches,russian twist, mountain climber, bike crunches etc), 20 rep each. But still my abs are flabby as hell. I am not saying they're big, they just not toned enough.
I pretty much eat 80% clean.
I did lose a little bit of weight (3lbs) and toned up my legs. But my abs are kinda "jiggly". Any recommendation?
Abs are made in the kitchen babe0 -
Hi @doralim1990
It sounds like unfortunately we're afflicted with the same thing! Although my abs have definitely gotten better through working them daily, they still aren't where I want them to be.
Have you tried stomach vacuuming? I'm on this as my last resort before I throw in the towel - I came across it online, and so far it's working well! It focuses on strengthening the inner core abs that flatten your stomach rather than the outer ones which give you a six pack. Give it a look online, there are loads of video's which show you how to do it correctly.
Hope this helps, best of luck!0 -
doralim1990 wrote: »If i am not losing on 1000cal, how can I increase my calories and still lose fat on my tummy?! Everyone's ranting about "calorie deficit" thingy.
If you're not losing on a 1000 calorie intake, something in your logging is off.
You're 24 and 7lbs from your goal. It sounds like you should be researching what your TDEE is and focusing on a recomp, not such a restrictive intake.0 -
lmaharidge wrote: »doralim1990 wrote: »i do abs workout EVERYDAY : 4 sets of 6 different exercises (crunches,russian twist, mountain climber, bike crunches etc), 20 rep each. But still my abs are flabby as hell. I am not saying they're big, they just not toned enough.
I pretty much eat 80% clean.
I did lose a little bit of weight (3lbs) and toned up my legs. But my abs are kinda "jiggly". Any recommendation?
Abs are made in the kitchen babe
Try sit ups in the kitchen.0 -
FrejaHetty19 wrote: »Hi @doralim1990
It sounds like unfortunately we're afflicted with the same thing! Although my abs have definitely gotten better through working them daily, they still aren't where I want them to be.
Have you tried stomach vacuuming? I'm on this as my last resort before I throw in the towel - I came across it online, and so far it's working well! It focuses on strengthening the inner core abs that flatten your stomach rather than the outer ones which give you a six pack. Give it a look online, there are loads of video's which show you how to do it correctly.
Hope this helps, best of luck!
Wat.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »FrejaHetty19 wrote: »Hi @doralim1990
It sounds like unfortunately we're afflicted with the same thing! Although my abs have definitely gotten better through working them daily, they still aren't where I want them to be.
Have you tried stomach vacuuming? I'm on this as my last resort before I throw in the towel - I came across it online, and so far it's working well! It focuses on strengthening the inner core abs that flatten your stomach rather than the outer ones which give you a six pack. Give it a look online, there are loads of video's which show you how to do it correctly.
Hope this helps, best of luck!
Wat.
Is that the only part of the post that confused you? I'm still trying to figure out how a vacuum strengthens anything. And now I'm thinking "Abs in spaaaaaace..."0 -
To be fair, stomach vacuuming is a legit exercise/technique that some people do for abs. It's not a type of surgery or anything like some people think.0
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slideaway1 wrote: »To be fair, stomach vacuuming is a legit exercise/technique that some people do for abs. It's not a type of surgery or anything like some people think.
Ah, I googled and now am less confused. I seriously thought she was attempting to vacuum her stomach with a vacuum cleaner...0 -
slideaway1 wrote: »To be fair, stomach vacuuming is a legit exercise/technique that some people do for abs. It's not a type of surgery or anything like some people think.
Ah, I googled and now am less confused. I seriously thought she was attempting to vacuum her stomach with a vacuum cleaner...
That would be cool though. I could hoover up the Dorito's crumbs all over my chest while I was at it.0 -
The abs are generally the last place you lose fat. Generally speaking, the first place you gain fat is the last place you lose fat. A missing piece of the puzzle is patience...doralim1990 wrote: »I can be toned in other body parts just not the abs.0 -
Are you only eating 1000 calories TOTAL in a day?doralim1990 wrote: »
How long have you been losing weight? Are you willing to post a pic of your abs? Besides abs, what else is your workout consisted of?doralim1990 wrote: »Okay so what is the conclusion? Increase calorie intake and increase exercise or to create more calorie deficit? I dunno whether it is the right amount (of 1000 cal) like rice with stir fry veggie is barely 300cal? It is a whole plate of food.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Been losing weight for 1,5 month but my weight is stuck now. I am following fitness blender hiit workout (besides cardio the workout also train different target area each time like upper body and cardio, lower body and cardio, abs and cardio) and sometimes i squeeze in 10 mins abs workout after. Also i found that after my last week cheat meal and eliminating nuts in my diet, now my tummy is not as lean as before
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Lol, there are lots of people on here that do weights only and have abs with no PED use. Pretty bold blanket statement and not even close to the truth.Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids.
You burn more FAT sleeping 8 hours a day than doing 2 hours of hiking, yes. Notice I didn't say CALORIES. The ratio of calories from hiking will come from mostly from glycogen and little fat if glycogen is depleted enough. The body's energy source at rest is 100% FAT (unless you have alcohol in your system) which is why rest is so important. You're resting more than you're working out throughout the day so the amount of FAT% burned will be much much higher than if you were working out. You can disagree, but you'd be wrong.And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Lol, there are lots of people on here that do weights only and have abs with no PED use. Pretty bold blanket statement and not even close to the truth.Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids.
You burn more FAT sleeping 8 hours a day than doing 2 hours of hiking, yes. Notice I didn't say CALORIES. The ratio of calories from hiking will come from mostly from glycogen and little fat if glycogen is depleted enough. The body's energy source at rest is 100% FAT (unless you have alcohol in your system) which is why rest is so important. You're resting more than you're working out throughout the day so the amount of FAT% burned will be much much higher than if you were working out. You can disagree, but you'd be wrong.And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Good info mate. Much appreciated.0 -
The problem with these public posts is that everyone always veers away from the topic of what he/she wants or is asking for (advice) and ends up talking about their own problems. Doralim the fact about burning fat is you have to get to what's called a calorie deficit. That's where you burn more calories then you actually eat throughout the day. You can burn 3000 calories a day doing cardio, biking or whatever but if your eating say 3500 calories, you won't burn fat. You actually have to burn almost 2000 calories more than what you intake everyday just to burn one pound of body fat. And not be judgemental but to what the personal trainer niner said but if you think you can burn an extra 2000 calories a day and burn more fat by not doing cardio, it's not happening. Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids. A 300 pound person can do ab crunches till their blue in the face and you won't see any results until you lose weight and body fat. Good luck to you Doralim. And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
A couple points.You actually have to burn almost 2000 calories more than what you intake everyday just to burn one pound of body fat.
Wat? That would 4lbs of fat per week?Yes doing weights will burn fat but there'e no way your going to lose weight and have "abs" just doing weights unless your on some sort of steroids.
Wat?And niner is saying you burn more fat sleeping than hiking? That is so far from the truth, is isn't even funny. So if I never exercise and just sleep, I'm going to lose more body fat than hiking two hours everyday, 7 days a week? Don't think so bud.
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djspacecaptain wrote: »From my experience (I lost bunch of weight and had a good 5 pack) Is to just hit it hard. I was doing 1000-2000 crunches per gym sesh and they were with 35-45lb weights added. I hit it that hard for a loooooonng time that even when stopping exercising for over a year and gaining over 50lbs i can still see the abs. So i recommend just doing so much crunch exercises that your abs will have no choice but to come out!
This sounds awful. Like legit awful.
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Just to be clear , and focus on my prob rather than arguing
My last weight-in was 2 months ago at 49kg , now i am about 47.5kg - 48kg . This is morning before breakkie. I am 159cm and have a small body frame
Here's what my diary in most days...
Morning : half cup oats + banana + chia seed + coffee with 1tsp of sugar
Pre workout : 1 apple and green tea
Workout : workout hiit + upper/lower/abs 30-35 mins
Lunch : half cup of rice / sweet potatoes +a cup of stir fry veggie with tofu
Also do twice 40 mins yoga per week before dinner
Dinner : 2 huge sweet potatoes and corn or veggie soup with rice or oats with fruit
Snack : 1 oat cookies
I record my calories in my fitness pal and yes its about 1000cal per day.
I have no job right now and i have Very minimum movement
You guys be the judge0 -
doralim1990 wrote: »Just to be clear , and focus on my prob rather than arguing
My last weight-in was 2 months ago at 49kg , now i am about 47.5kg - 48kg . This is morning before breakkie.
Here's what my diary in most days...
Morning : half cup oats + banana + chia seed + coffee with 1tsp of sugar
Pre workout : 1 apple and green tea
Workout : workout hiit + upper/lower/abs 30-35 mins
Lunch : half cup of rice / sweet potatoes +a cup of stir fry veggie with tofu
Also do twice 40 mins yoga per week before dinner
Dinner : 2 huge sweet potatoes and corn or veggie soup with rice or oats with fruit
Snack : 1 oat cookies
I record my calories in fitness blender and yes its about 1000cal per day.
I have no job right now and i have Very minimum movement
You guys be the judge
Regarding minimum movement. Is that due to an injury, or do you mean you tend to just sit around your house? As previously suggested, I'd look into progressive resistance programs if you don't have any exercise limitations and read the body recomposition thread; you're already at a pretty low weight you need to be focusing on building more muscle and not losing more weight.
For example Staci is 11 lbs heavier in the picture on the right:
You can read her story here:
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2011/07/21/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/0 -
doralim1990 wrote: »Just to be clear , and focus on my prob rather than arguing
My last weight-in was 2 months ago at 49kg , now i am about 47.5kg - 48kg . This is morning before breakkie.
Here's what my diary in most days...
Morning : half cup oats + banana + chia seed + coffee with 1tsp of sugar
Pre workout : 1 apple and green tea
Workout : workout hiit + upper/lower/abs 30-35 mins
Lunch : half cup of rice / sweet potatoes +a cup of stir fry veggie with tofu
Also do twice 40 mins yoga per week before dinner
Dinner : 2 huge sweet potatoes and corn or veggie soup with rice or oats with fruit
Snack : 1 oat cookies
I record my calories in fitness blender and yes its about 1000cal per day.
I have no job right now and i have Very minimum movement
You guys be the judge
Regarding minimum movement. Is that due to an injury, or do you mean you tend to just sit around your house? As previously suggested, I'd look into progressive resistance programs if you don't have any exercise limitations and read the body recomposition thread; you're already at a pretty low weight you need to be focusing on building more muscle and not losing more weight.
For example Staci is 11 lbs heavier in the picture on the right:
You can read her story here:
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2011/07/21/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/
I am not suffering of any kind of injury, i just tend to sit alot because i have nothing much to do besides staring at my computer all day.
I really want to try to incoporate weight lifting to my exercise to gain muscle, and by that time i will increase my calories intake.
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Just to be clear again, i am really not starving myself, in fact i am quite stuffed most of the time. I have a small frame (all of my bones are small) but i am the skinny fat type. It is so hard to be toned except my legs. I don't have a jiggly thighs. But the rest of the body are just pfffttttt! Like abs and arms! Duh0
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I think you are miscalculating your intake. It is more like 1800 a day.doralim1990 wrote: »Just to be clear , and focus on my prob rather than arguing
My last weight-in was 2 months ago at 49kg , now i am about 47.5kg - 48kg . This is morning before breakkie. I am 159cm and have a small body frame
Here's what my diary in most days...
Morning : half cup oats + banana + chia seed + coffee with 1tsp of sugar
Pre workout : 1 apple and green tea
Workout : workout hiit + upper/lower/abs 30-35 mins
Lunch : half cup of rice / sweet potatoes +a cup of stir fry veggie with tofu
Also do twice 40 mins yoga per week before dinner
Dinner : 2 huge sweet potatoes and corn or veggie soup with rice or oats with fruit
Snack : 1 oat cookies
I record my calories in my fitness pal and yes its about 1000cal per day.
I have no job right now and i have Very minimum movement
You guys be the judge
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Not trying to be mean but the calorie deficit thingy just isn't for me. Based on my past experience (which i was basically starving myself to lose weight) my weight was so much lesser than currently and i was still flabby as hell even though you could see bones on my ribs and collar etc.
I highly believe in my case its the exercise issue. If you said abs are made in the kitchen, there I've showed you my food intake and I can say that its pretty clean.0 -
doralim1990 wrote: »Not trying to be mean but the calorie deficit thingy just isn't for me. Based on my past experience (which i was basically starving myself to lose weight) my weight was so much lesser than currently and i was still flabby as hell even though you could see bones on my ribs and collar etc.
I highly believe in my case its the exercise issue. If you said abs are made in the kitchen, there I've showed you my food intake and I can say that its pretty clean.
This thread has been posted a few times. Have you looked at it yet?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach/p10
This discussion has been closed.
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