Juicing fast?
Replies
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emmycantbemeeko wrote: »100% of study participants who gave their heart and lungs a break found they never gained any weight ever again.
You might be on to something here, @snickerscharlie...
Think we can market it?0 -
Plenty of doctors have endorsed things that are weakly supported or well-established to be ineffective or even dangerous, whether through ignorance (medical school actually isn't all that nutrition-intensive, and few doctors have the time or inclination to keep up with all the latest research outside their own specialty once they're in practice) or for more malicious/greedy reasons. Like selling bogus diet tricks to those who assume that nothing a doctor recommends could be wrong.
Certainly any medical professional supporting juice "cleanses" (or in fact *any* type of "cleanse") is either in ignorance of the (total lack of) science behind it or, much more likely, stands to benefit in some way from people deciding to juice fast. This is really, really settled science.
We know how the gut works- it doesn't need "rests" for anyone who isn't suffering from a hospitalization-worthy intestinal blockage.
We know that taking in massive amounts of juice does not provide any health benefits beyond what would normally be associated with drinking some juice (ie, some vitamins and minerals that would be similarly available if the person ate the whole fruit or vegetable in question, plus they'd get some fiber in the bargain).
We know that consuming nothing but sugary liquids spikes your blood sugar and consuming no protein, fat, or fiber for days is not good for you.
We know that you can't sustain an all-juice diet very long and that people who crash diet (and that's what a juice fast is) see short term weight loss but do not keep it off for very long, and do not tend to change their regular eating habits afterward.
You're right that this isn't a debate- this is really basic nutrition and a&P 101 stuff.
It's a lot easier to make money telling people that there's a sexy, quick, exotic solution to their weight loss problems than telling them the truth: that it's a matter of eating fewer calories than you burn until you're a normal weight, and then eating the same number of calories you burn, forever. Full stop. That's unsexy and intimidating despite being completely true. Little wonder some doctors suggest crazy diets like juice "cleanses". It makes patients happy, it sells books, it gets you daytime talk shows.
Look at all the pseudoscientific nonsense Dr. Oz promotes. One doctor recommending something- especially one doctor recommending something he sells in a public forum as a panacea- is not evidence of something's effectiveness, it's evidence that doctor is, in the less generous interpretation, willing to say things that aren't true for money, and in the more generous interpretation, hasn't bothered to do any research.
Your own posts speak to what's wrong with juice fasts- you say you lost weight, but you put some back on. You say it changed your eating habits and mindset for the better- but you're back in the same patterns now, enough to feel like you need to repeat the fast.
You can claim it changed you, but the results speak for themselves- it didn't create a permanent change. You *didn't* change your mindset. You may have felt good at some points on the cleanse- hunger sometimes morphs in to a kind of euphoria- and you may have thought more carefully about your food while you were still in the virtuous-feeling afterglow of your week of self-imposed hunger, but within a short time, you were back to overeating steak dinners and drinking whiskey in amounts that caused more weight gain. You didn't learn anything about what's actually good for your body, and you didn't change your daily behavior, so despite your insistence that it "changed" you, you're back to the cleanse. Why would you need to repeat something that changed your behavior for the better? If last year you'd done no cleanse at all but simply started eating at a moderate deficit and kept it up, you'd be down now instead of up "about two pounds," and never have to worry about starving yourself on juice again.
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this is a great video to watch on the topic even as non believers. As it isn't just preaching juicing to you its an experiment and its interesting either way!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aaxa7rxEbyk 0 -
brittny0627 wrote: »this is a great video to watch on the topic even as non believers. As it isn't just preaching juicing to you its an experiment and its interesting either way!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aaxa7rxEbyk
Jason Vale's Juice Tube as a source fails to counter peer reviewed science. Honestly, it fails to pass any reasonable source vetting.0 -
emmycantbemeeko wrote: »Plenty of doctors have endorsed things that are weakly supported or well-established to be ineffective or even dangerous, whether through ignorance (medical school actually isn't all that nutrition-intensive, and few doctors have the time or inclination to keep up with all the latest research outside their own specialty once they're in practice) or for more malicious/greedy reasons. Like selling bogus diet tricks to those who assume that nothing a doctor recommends could be wrong.
Certainly any medical professional supporting juice "cleanses" (or in fact *any* type of "cleanse") is either in ignorance of the (total lack of) science behind it or, much more likely, stands to benefit in some way from people deciding to juice fast. This is really, really settled science.
We know how the gut works- it doesn't need "rests" for anyone who isn't suffering from a hospitalization-worthy intestinal blockage.
We know that taking in massive amounts of juice does not provide any health benefits beyond what would normally be associated with drinking some juice (ie, some vitamins and minerals that would be similarly available if the person ate the whole fruit or vegetable in question, plus they'd get some fiber in the bargain).
We know that consuming nothing but sugary liquids spikes your blood sugar and consuming no protein, fat, or fiber for days is not good for you.
We know that you can't sustain an all-juice diet very long and that people who crash diet (and that's what a juice fast is) see short term weight loss but do not keep it off for very long, and do not tend to change their regular eating habits afterward.
You're right that this isn't a debate- this is really basic nutrition and a&P 101 stuff.
It's a lot easier to make money telling people that there's a sexy, quick, exotic solution to their weight loss problems than telling them the truth: that it's a matter of eating fewer calories than you burn until you're a normal weight, and then eating the same number of calories you burn, forever. Full stop. That's unsexy and intimidating despite being completely true. Little wonder some doctors suggest crazy diets like juice "cleanses". It makes patients happy, it sells books, it gets you daytime talk shows.
Look at all the pseudoscientific nonsense Dr. Oz promotes. One doctor recommending something- especially one doctor recommending something he sells in a public forum as a panacea- is not evidence of something's effectiveness, it's evidence that doctor is, in the less generous interpretation, willing to say things that aren't true for money, and in the more generous interpretation, hasn't bothered to do any research.
Your own posts speak to what's wrong with juice fasts- you say you lost weight, but you put some back on. You say it changed your eating habits and mindset for the better- but you're back in the same patterns now, enough to feel like you need to repeat the fast.
You can claim it changed you, but the results speak for themselves- it didn't create a permanent change. You *didn't* change your mindset. You may have felt good at some points on the cleanse- hunger sometimes morphs in to a kind of euphoria- and you may have thought more carefully about your food while you were still in the virtuous-feeling afterglow of your week of self-imposed hunger, but within a short time, you were back to overeating steak dinners and drinking whiskey in amounts that caused more weight gain. You didn't learn anything about what's actually good for your body, and you didn't change your daily behavior, so despite your insistence that it "changed" you, you're back to the cleanse. Why would you need to repeat something that changed your behavior for the better? If last year you'd done no cleanse at all but simply started eating at a moderate deficit and kept it up, you'd be down now instead of up "about two pounds," and never have to worry about starving yourself on juice again.
You I like.0 -
A closer look at Jason Vale ... the source that the new attorney chose to back her position. He is selling juicers and juicing books ... he has a youtube channel dedicated to juicing ... he has a pseudo-documentary called "Super Juice Me" ... in other words he epitomizes every example of what to look for in a woo peddler.0
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brittny0627 wrote: »This really isn't a debate. Many people have different opinions on the topic and I'm just expressing my experience. There's a ton of medical information for both sides of the argument and I've read through a lot of it. I'm basing it on my experience and my opinions. I'm not alone in my experience nor positive feelings towards short term juicing in general. There are options from both medical professionals and nutritionists against and for juice fasting. I don't believe in extended fasting but I'm firm in my belief of shorter term juice fasting. We could pull up and quote stats from both sides all day but there's no need. I'm speaking from my experience. You should check out some of the things others who have done it have to say (both positive and negative).
Heres an MD
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/woodson-merrell-md/juice-cleanses_b_4549641.html
Here's a skeptics who tried a pre made 3 day (which I dont support) opinion on it. Read her last few paragraphs.brianpperkins wrote: »brittny0627 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »brittny0627 wrote: »I actually think it is all it's cracked up to be. I'm doing my second one now on day 3. Did one last year I think I did 8-10 days or something. I lost 9 lbs (nod I'm not a big girl) and I felt Better. It made me stop eating all the junk food I started eating. If you want to lose a few and get healthy it's a good idea. If you don't want to lose weight you can drink more than the usual juice amount!!
If it worked so well, why do you have to do another one?Many vegetables contain protein.
How could you meet protein needs for 10 days using vegetable juice?
Hahaha
Wellll lol great question and I can answer it easily. Since I did the 8 or whatever day juice fast last year I've maybe put like 2 lbs on. I'm not doing it to lose weight this time. Only doing 5 days. I'm doing it this time because as a new attorney, I've been going to way too many after work, whiskey filled, steak house dinners. I've managed to maintain but I'm not in the same healthy eating mindset I used to be in. Sooo juice fasting really helps change that mentally and give your digestive system a break. Plus, it immediately flushes you with more nutrients than you could ever eat in a day. That's why!
And to the other question......
Tons of fruit and veggies have protein as well as healthy fats, and I don't just mean avocados. Plus some people have a handful of almonds or whatever nut while juicing.
The first two things in bold are misstatements. The last, in context, fails miserably. Your final sentence requires breaking the "juice fast" thereby undermining the concept.
What misstatements do you speak of? "First two things" meaning my personal experience and life? What would my motive be for commenting initially, if Its BS. You're incorrect, I spoke about my life. Let's hear about your PERSONAL nutrition goals so I can refute them as well! Aside from that, every persons body obviously react differently. If someone finds themselves reacting negatively due to lack of protein (like a weight lifter used to high levels more or whoever) during the beginning days, many juicing regimens/recommendations from advocates say to have a handful of nuts. I've never had to so I can't speak on that besides what I've read about it. I personally did not create the juicing concept just giving my experience. thanks
As a vegetarian (for 41 years, even), I feel like I know quite a bit about vegetable/fruit sources of protein.
A "handful of nuts" - with my large-ish hands - is going to be somewhere between one & two ounces, and run around 6-8g of protein, 12g tops . . . which can be a nice addition to a day that includes a variety of other good protein sources, but it isn't much on its own.
The most "juice-able" vegetable & fruit sources of protein tend to have only a few grams per 100g of the food, at best (100g broccoli or guava have about 3g protein each, for example - and these are among the better sources). Fruit and vegetables don't typically provide complete proteins (in terms of essential amino acid complement), either.
Since our bodies can't store protein in useable form, I prefer to get an adequate amount daily. At my size I prefer to get minimally 75g/day in order to stay strong and healthy, and 100g is preferable. I'm going to have a tough time doing that on fruits & veggies I can juice, plus a handful of nuts . . . unless I start juicing soybeans or something, which is not usually what folks have in mind.
For healthy people, a short juice fast probably won't do major harm, but I can't see it as something that's going to help me achieve my health and fitness goals.0 -
i don't think i posted the link properly or it didn't let me but try watching Super Juice Me documentary on youtube. Its an experiment with 28 people not a juice preaching type of thing. Its fascinating no matter your stance.
@brianpperkins I agree it isn't comparable! However, thats why I would only do it for a short term. I do juice both broccoli and brussel sprouts. Sidenote, I am not one of the people who watched fat sick nearly dead and sprinted to jump on that wagon I hate that and this doc isn't like that. I don't follow someones particular guidelines. I do 80 percent greens of any kind and 20 fruit, 16 ounces 6 times a day or more if Im hungry. Lol just telling you the way I do it.
Check out the documentary, I haven't seen it in a while but I think in this experiment they included beans or something.0 -
Lol everyone I simply said its fascinating because it is an experiment that we can watch unfold. Unlike joe cross. Yes he sells items but that is besides my point of the experiment being far more broad and fascinating. I am not in court, I didn't say this is foundation or demonstrative evidence lol. I don't see how being a new attorney plays any role in stating that I find a Docu interesting.0
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What logical reason is there for me to check out a "documentary" (a stretch in this case) that is based on a position that violates science?brittny0627 wrote: »i don't think i posted the link properly or it didn't let me but try watching Super Juice Me documentary on youtube. Its an experiment with 28 people not a juice preaching type of thing. Its fascinating no matter your stance.
@brianpperkins I agree it isn't comparable! However, thats why I would only do it for a short term. I do juice both broccoli and brussel sprouts. Sidenote, I am not one of the people who watched fat sick nearly dead and sprinted to jump on that wagon I hate that and this doc isn't like that. I don't follow someones particular guidelines. I do 80 percent greens of any kind and 20 fruit, 16 ounces 6 times a day or more if Im hungry. Lol just telling you the way I do it.
Check out the documentary, I haven't seen it in a while but I think in this experiment they included beans or something.
The only thing you've said in this thread that I agree with is that this isn't a debate. A debate requires two or more viable positions that can be discussed using fact and logic. Juicing cannot be defended using those in the face of actual science which partially explains the ridiculous sources you're encouraging others to watch.
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brittny0627 wrote: »Lol everyone I simply said its fascinating because it is an experiment that we can watch unfold. Unlike joe cross. Yes he sells items but that is besides my point of the experiment being far more broad and fascinating.
It isn't besides the point, it IS the point. It's a sales pitch.0 -
@AnnPT77 Thank you and i agree with you. I feel as though short juice fasts have made me feel better and gotten me in the right mindset. The past 3 months upon entering a new very stressful environment I lost that mindset which is the main reason I am doing it again. That has worked for me which is why I'm not sure why it has been such a debate, when it comes down to some people finding it beneficial for them and others thinking its pointless.0
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Calling that video an experiment is an insult to the scientific process.0
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brittny0627 wrote: »Not trolling! And I may have only one person who agrees in this, but there are many people who agree. Im not sure why it seems as though i am the only person who has this opinion. There have been no scientific studies that have taken place on short term juice fasting. So there is no science to turn to besides the way our bodies and digestive systems work and whether or not it benefits us. Then we are back to the same debate as before. Many agree, and many disagree. It should ok for me to have a different opinion based on my experience. @Wetcoaster
ok. Your opinion doesn't science and thats ok. Believe what you wish.0 -
@brianpperkins I can understand that in that sense of the word. However we experiment with baking soda and vinegar, we experiment with hair color, drugs and alcohol or whatever it may be. The term experiment is not exclusive to the scientific process. Thats how I was using the word and I think thats all the guy meant by calling it an experiment.0
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It's a fad, and does not reduce caloric intake,
nor does it provide all necessary nutrition.
Short-term, it probably wouldn't harm you much.
Even if you use the whole fruit/vegetable in your juice, drinking calories results in feeling less full than
eating them. And juicing takes electricity ($), water for cleanup ($), etc.
But as always, don't take my word for it.
Here are some studies.
Feel free to browse PubMed yourselves.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19110020
The effect of fruit in different forms on energy intake and satiety at a meal
"whole apple increased satiety more than applesauce or apple juice... results suggest that solid fruit affects
satiety more than pureed fruit or juice, and that eating fruit at the start of a meal can reduce energy intake."
The abstract has a link to the full article, for free.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6259919
The role of dietary fiber in satiety, glucose, and insulin: studies with fruit and fruit juice
"Satiety, assessed by two subjective scoring systems, was greater after whole fruit than after juice and the
return of appetite was delayed. With oranges, as previously reported with apples, there was a significantly
smaller insulin response to fruit than to juice and less postabsorptive fall in plasma glucose."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17579632
Effects of food form on appetite and energy intake in lean and obese young adults
"total daily energy intake was significantly higher ... on days the beverage forms of the high-carbohydrate,
-fat and -protein foods were ingested, respectively. This was due more to a weak effect on satiety"
(IOW, solid foods are more satisfying, even if the liquid form has the same # of calories.)
.
Um...brittny wrote:There have been no scientific studies that have taken place on short term juice fasting.
So there is no science to turn to
See above.
Admittedly, PubMed only has 3 studies on file to give as results for a search of "juice fasting",
one of which doesn't apply, not on topic,
one is in German,
and one of which had a sample size of 5 men, for 8 days, eating 300 cal/day or less.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term="juice+fasting"
Searching for "juicing diet" gave 4 results.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=juicing+diet
One does not seem to be relevant,
one is a comment on another.
One warns about kidney damage/failure from overconsumption of oxalate.Juicing followed by heavy consumption of oxalate-rich juices appears to be a potential
cause of oxalate nephropathy and acute renal failure.
The last basically says that drinking fruit/vegetable juices is better than drinking the same
calories of sugar water, and drinking whole fruit juice does slow sugar absorption & insulin rise,
but we knew that already. Also has some small beneficial effect on vasodilation.
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brittny0627 wrote: »@brianpperkins I can understand that in that sense of the word. However we experiment with baking soda and vinegar, we experiment with hair color, drugs and alcohol or whatever it may be. The term experiment is not exclusive to the scientific process. Thats how I was using the word and I think thats all the guy meant by calling it an experiment.
Do you even realize how badly you keep undermining yourself?
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It's a fad, and does not reduce caloric intake,
nor does it provide all necessary nutrition.
Short-term, it probably wouldn't harm you much.
Even if you use the whole fruit/vegetable in your juice, drinking calories results in feeling less full than
eating them. And juicing takes electricity ($), water for cleanup ($), etc.
But as always, don't take my word for it.
Here are some studies.
Feel free to browse PubMed yourselves.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19110020
The effect of fruit in different forms on energy intake and satiety at a meal
"whole apple increased satiety more than applesauce or apple juice... results suggest that solid fruit affects
satiety more than pureed fruit or juice, and that eating fruit at the start of a meal can reduce energy intake."
The abstract has a link to the full article, for free.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6259919
The role of dietary fiber in satiety, glucose, and insulin: studies with fruit and fruit juice
"Satiety, assessed by two subjective scoring systems, was greater after whole fruit than after juice and the
return of appetite was delayed. With oranges, as previously reported with apples, there was a significantly
smaller insulin response to fruit than to juice and less postabsorptive fall in plasma glucose."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17579632
Effects of food form on appetite and energy intake in lean and obese young adults
"total daily energy intake was significantly higher ... on days the beverage forms of the high-carbohydrate,
-fat and -protein foods were ingested, respectively. This was due more to a weak effect on satiety"
(IOW, solid foods are more satisfying, even if the liquid form has the same # of calories.)
Those defending juicing keep illustrating how little they care about the science concerning the subject.0 -
brittny0627 wrote: »@AnnPT77 Thank you and i agree with you. I feel as though short juice fasts have made me feel better and gotten me in the right mindset. The past 3 months upon entering a new very stressful environment I lost that mindset which is the main reason I am doing it again. That has worked for me which is why I'm not sure why it has been such a debate, when it comes down to some people finding it beneficial for them and others thinking its pointless.
IMO, if you feel you've gotten benefits from juicing and you feel it's beneficial for you, then that's not a problem. The problem is when medical claims about juicing are made that are not supported by evidence, or are contrary to existing evidence.
On a side note, I've done both juice and water fasts. Looking back, I would not recommend either. I did feel like there were some short term gains, but long term I would have been better off just eating fewer calories on a well balanced diet for the same periods. I would have gotten the same benefits with out any of the negative side effects.
Consuming less than 800 calories for more than a day or two also slowed down my metabolism, which is the last thing you want when trying to lose weight.0 -
brittny0627 wrote: »@AnnPT77 Thank you and i agree with you. I feel as though short juice fasts have made me feel better and gotten me in the right mindset. The past 3 months upon entering a new very stressful environment I lost that mindset which is the main reason I am doing it again. That has worked for me which is why I'm not sure why it has been such a debate, when it comes down to some people finding it beneficial for them and others thinking its pointless.
Weeeelllll, I don't think we agree. Which is OK. I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything. There is absolutely no way I'd do a juice fast, or encourage anyone to do a juice fast, but I'm not trying to talk you out of it - your mind seems made up, and you've found it helpful in the past - I understand that.
I think that the reason you're getting some disagreement and push-back is that people like me know that many other people may be reading this, even though they're not posting. Those of us who think juice fasts are at best pointless, and at worst harmful, are worried that some of the people reading will be encouraged to do a juice fast. Not only would that (IMO) be a Bad Plan, but for us to encourage it might be a violation of MFPs terms of service, which say "No Promotion of Unsafe Weight-Loss Techniques".
I wish you well, truly, and hope you achieve all your objectives.0 -
@brianpperkins what I just stated is unrelated I was discussing a terms meaning. Zero undermining there.
@RedBeardBruce. thanks. My words are being picked apart when I'm expressing my personal experience. Its become repetitive. It seems as though you might have understood somewhat what i was attempting to explain the entire time.
Seeing as though you have done both before, people can hear from someone with experience and how they felt about it. I appreciate your opinion on the experience.
Also wow! I cannot believe you only took in 800 calories that sounds like it would be extremely difficult and sounds dangerous. Was it prebottled and those were the guidelines when you juiced? I really try to get at least 1200 and track everything i put in my juices. sometimes I'm over and sometimes slightly under. thanks0 -
There is a level of snake oil pseudoscience that doesn't get studied much because its underlying claims are *so* improbable that there is no point in spending finite time and money on pursuing them. Medical research is generally focused on things that have at least a plausible mechanism of action in their favor. If a product or method's claimed actions violate basics of biology and chemistry, that's not going to attract a lot of research time. Short-term juice fasting falls firmly in to this category.
I think the level of push-back you're seeing here is because you've popped up in several threads today making baseless claims about the benefits of juice fasts while encouraging others to try them. I certainly don't expect to convince *you*- your devotion to juice fasting isn't based on evidence so it isn't likely to be undone by evidence- but I do have some hope other people reading who might be inclined to try it based on your emotional testimony will see the overwhelming response from reality land and make better choices.
You can do whatever silly things you want with your own nutrition, but when you start promoting absolute nonsense, people are going to call you out on it.
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brittny0627 wrote: »@brianpperkins what I just stated is unrelated I was discussing a terms meaning. Zero undermining there.
@RedBeardBruce. thanks. My words are being picked apart when I'm expressing my personal experience. Its become repetitive. It seems as though you might have understood somewhat what i was attempting to explain the entire time.
Seeing as though you have done both before, people can hear from someone with experience and how they felt about it. I appreciate your opinion on the experience.
Also wow! I cannot believe you only took in 800 calories that sounds like it would be extremely difficult and sounds dangerous. Was it prebottled and those were the guidelines when you juiced? I really try to get at least 1200 and track everything i put in my juices. sometimes I'm over and sometimes slightly under. thanksbrittny0627 wrote: »@brianpperkins what I just stated is unrelated I was discussing a terms meaning. Zero undermining there.
@RedBeardBruce. thanks. My words are being picked apart when I'm expressing my personal experience. Its become repetitive. It seems as though you might have understood somewhat what i was attempting to explain the entire time.
Seeing as though you have done both before, people can hear from someone with experience and how they felt about it. I appreciate your opinion on the experience.
Also wow! I cannot believe you only took in 800 calories that sounds like it would be extremely difficult and sounds dangerous. Was it prebottled and those were the guidelines when you juiced? I really try to get at least 1200 and track everything i put in my juices. sometimes I'm over and sometimes slightly under. thanks
ok. Keep at it and good health.0 -
brittny0627 wrote: »@brianpperkins what I just stated is unrelated I was discussing a terms meaning. Zero undermining there.
@RedBeardBruce. thanks. My words are being picked apart when I'm expressing my personal experience. Its become repetitive. It seems as though you might have understood somewhat what i was attempting to explain the entire time.
Seeing as though you have done both before, people can hear from someone with experience and how they felt about it. I appreciate your opinion on the experience.
Also wow! I cannot believe you only took in 800 calories that sounds like it would be extremely difficult and sounds dangerous. Was it prebottled and those were the guidelines when you juiced? I really try to get at least 1200 and track everything i put in my juices. sometimes I'm over and sometimes slightly under. thanks
The fact you don't grasp it doesn't mean it isn't there. You cited a flawed video as a source then called it am experiment. You're supporting a position countered by science.
If your words are so easily "picked apart" on a forum based on their content, any lawyer or judge familiar with the law will destroy you in your chosen profession.0 -
I've already stated that this isn't court and there I never claimed it as evidence, simply fascinating. I also stated the ways in which the word experiment can be used and that the term isn't exclusive to the scientific process. You do not grasp those aspects of my responses.
Also I'm doing well in my career and also in court 2-0, but thanks for the kind and very relevant thoughts!0 -
brittny0627 wrote: »I've already stated that this isn't court and there I never claimed it as evidence, simply fascinating. I also stated the ways in which the word experiment can be used and that the term isn't exclusive to the scientific process. You do not grasp those aspects of my responses.
Also I'm doing well in my career and also in court 2-0, but thanks for the kind and very relevant thoughts!
I grasp everything you are trying to say0 -
There are better odds of talking Daesh out of their positions than there are of logic convincing the pro juicing crowd to abandon their fallacies.0
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brianpperkins wrote: »There are better odds of talking Daesh out of their positions than there are of logic convincing the pro juicing crowd to abandon their fallacies.
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This discussion has been closed.
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