The February 2016 Running Challenge
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_nikkiwolf_ wrote: »
On the other hand, if the two words you get out without a pause are words like antidisestablishmentarianism or pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism, you might still be fine. At least where the running pace is concernedIf you can only get out 1 or 2 words before having to pause to breath, then you are going too fast. (especially if those 2 words are expletatives, then you are definetely going too fast).
On another note: my shirts arrived today. Woohoo! They fit nicely, and I love the color. Will have to go for a test run tonight.
I expected it to take much longer. Thanks again for the shipping, @Elise4270 !
I think I just got out of breath trying to say any of those 2 words, and I am sitting at my desk right now.
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Date Miles today. Miles for February
2/1 7.55 miles - 7.55
2/2 7.4 miles - 14.95
2/3 4.5 miles - 19.45
2/4 7 miles - 26.45
2/5 REST DAY
2/6 16 miles - 42.45
2/7 REST DAY
2/8 10.5 miles - 52.95
2/9 7.5 miles - 60.45
2/9 3.2 miles - 63.65
2/10 6.4 miles - 70.05
2/11 7.5 miles - 77.55
2/12 6.3 miles - 83.85
2/12 3.3 miles - 87.15 <<< Daily double
2/13 16 miles - 103.15
2/14 REST DAY Happy Valentines Day
2/15 8.1 miles - 111.25 << First run of 2 today
2/15 4 miles - 115.25 << Second run of the day. I hate cold rain.
2/16 10 miles - 125.25
2/16 5 miles - 130.25 << may try and fit a smaller run in tonight as well.
Upcoming races:
UAH Spring Road Race 8K - 3/6
Oak Barrel HM - 4/2
Bridge Street HM - 4/10
Cotton Row Run 10K - 5/30
Firecracker Chase 10.2 miler - 6/25
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lporter229 wrote: »
General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
I started using the 80/20 rule right out of the book "80/20 Running". There is guidance on ways to figure out your lactate threshold and calculate your target training zones from there. Then I started training with a heart rate monitor. I was a-mazed at how far off of my target zone I had been training. It was very tough to slow down at first, but once I did the improvements came very quickly. Within a year, I was back to running my easy runs at the pace I had been before, only this time my heart rate was actually in its target zone. It really helped to improve my overall endurance and allowed me to run pretty big negative splits at my last marathon, which I personally feel is very important for a successful marathon. I rarely use a HRM anymore because I have a good idea of where I am within my target zones now based on perceived rate of exertion. Every so often I will take it along as a check and I have been pretty accurate. It almost becomes like muscle memory.
Awesome. I just got the book and can't wait to get right into it. Although, I promised myself to read the Lydiard book first which also just came in.0 -
Oh, I should have mentioned that after just a few runs at easy pace (however you calculate it), you will know you are in the right zone on future runs. It is a pace you feel you know you can carry on seemingly forever, and after a while you can begin proving that to yourself by running ridonkulous distances at that pace. The pace I struggle with most is Tempo pace. I always try to go too fast. I have my LT pace down pat. I know by feel that effort pretty dang well. But I also tend to do tempo runs at that pace (which is not OK).0
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General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
@ariceroni - I like many of the answers so far. For the US-based folks, I've heard the Pledge of Allegiance test: While running easy, you should be able to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the same tempo and cadence you did in grade school, without gasping for breath. I don't know what non-US people would use; perhaps the Lord's Prayer for Christians, or the Shema Yisrael for Jews? Any well known, somewhat liturgical text with a familiar cadence should do.
I'll add the run smart project calculator, where you put in your race times and it calculates pace, equivalent pace for different race distances, and training paces according to the Jack Daniels system. My PR 5K, 15K, and half marathon times are all fairly close to each other in the results they produce here; my only marathon was slower (big surprise, for a first marathon!) and my only mile race was a little slower than this calculator predicts from my faster intermediate distance races.
The thing with easy pace is, it's a fairly broad range. I find it helpful to run with a group to slow myself down, even if I'm the one responsible for setting a constant pace. That's a major reason I act as a pace leader for a local training program; I'll run the long run slower when I'm responsible for other peoples' pace than when I'm only responsible for my own. And my major issue with long runs has always been getting myself to slow down enough. Pace leading, I can run toward the slower end of my easy range. Solo, I tend to run toward the faster end of my easy range . . . except when I get stressed or frustrated by running conditions and go a bit faster than that.
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lporter229 wrote: »
General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
I started using the 80/20 rule right out of the book "80/20 Running". There is guidance on ways to figure out your lactate threshold and calculate your target training zones from there. Then I started training with a heart rate monitor. I was a-mazed at how far off of my target zone I had been training. It was very tough to slow down at first, but once I did the improvements came very quickly. Within a year, I was back to running my easy runs at the pace I had been before, only this time my heart rate was actually in its target zone. It really helped to improve my overall endurance and allowed me to run pretty big negative splits at my last marathon, which I personally feel is very important for a successful marathon. I rarely use a HRM anymore because I have a good idea of where I am within my target zones now based on perceived rate of exertion. Every so often I will take it along as a check and I have been pretty accurate. It almost becomes like muscle memory.
Awesome. I just got the book and can't wait to get right into it. Although, I promised myself to read the Lydiard book first which also just came in.
Good! I hope you enjoy it, although I suspect that much of its content will be old news to you. But he does offer some anecdotal evidence in support of the 80/20 rule which you might find interesting. The book was very useful to me in that it offered me guidance on how best to do the things I already know I should be doing, but wasn't sure exactly how to put them together. I used his intermediate plan as the training basis for my last two marathons, although I padded it with lots of extra miles the second time around.0 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »Oh, I should have mentioned that after just a few runs at easy pace (however you calculate it), you will know you are in the right zone on future runs. It is a pace you feel you know you can carry on seemingly forever, and after a while you can begin proving that to yourself by running ridonkulous distances at that pace. The pace I struggle with most is Tempo pace. I always try to go too fast. I have my LT pace down pat. I know by feel that effort pretty dang well. But I also tend to do tempo runs at that pace (which is not OK).
I have that problem, too! Can't seem to get the feel for tempo pace...either I start way too fast, or I start about right and backslide into what I call "base plus" - a little higher than easy, but certainly nowhere near tempo.
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WhatMeRunning wrote: »Oh, I should have mentioned that after just a few runs at easy pace (however you calculate it), you will know you are in the right zone on future runs. It is a pace you feel you know you can carry on seemingly forever, and after a while you can begin proving that to yourself by running ridonkulous distances at that pace. The pace I struggle with most is Tempo pace. I always try to go too fast. I have my LT pace down pat. I know by feel that effort pretty dang well. But I also tend to do tempo runs at that pace (which is not OK).
Tempo is a weird word because it can mean different things according to who is using that term. So I am not sure how you are using it.
If you go by Greg McMillan he kind of defines 3 different "tempo" paces. There is the tempo interval pace (stolen from Jack Daniels cruise intervals) which is a pace just a tad bit faster than LTP. The tempo run itself which is right at or near LTP. Then he also defines steady state runs which is much longer but done just a little slower than LTP. Sounds like you are talking about steady state.
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1---6.10
2---rest
3---6.25
4---6.26
5---not enough rest day
6---15K
7-9--busted knee.
10-- 6.30
11---rest
12---7.05
13---rest dumb knee
14---7.39 (4.41) behind
15---rest dumb knee
16--- 4.60
17---5.72 run/walk- Still so tired.
59.12/Goal 110+ miles
Upcoming races:
03/19/16 Rock N Roll 5K Dallas
03/20/16 Rock N Roll Half Dallas
04/24/16 OKC Memorial undecided distance
Run the year 2016 159.16/20160 -
7 rest days out of 17 days has me feeling like I'm not pushing hard enough this month. Not sure what it is, I just feel like I'm in a bit of a lull. Maybe it's the winter blues. The good news is my base runs have been 4-5 miles now instead of 3-4. Still planning to reach the goal for the month.
2-1: 3 miles (and 27 on bike)
2-2: rest
2-3: 6.6 miles
2-4: 2.5 miles (and 30 minutes of core work)
2-5: 4 miles
2-6: rest
2-7: rest
2-8: 5 miles
2-9: rest
2-10: rest
2-11: 4 miles
2-12: 5 miles
2-13: 4 miles
2-14: 2.5 Mies
2-15: blah
2-16: more blah
2-17: 5 Miles
41.6 of 700 -
Went out too fast this am, so the conversation regarding finding your easy pace has been great reading for a newbie like me. Hope to give this a try tomorrow as my legs just weren't up for it today
![exercise.png[\img]](http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/t/waa5BO0/exercise.png[\img])
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I actually meant Tempo Run from the McMillan definition. My Tempo Intervals are easier as they are somewhat like LT pace but shorter, and I tend to pick up on the right pace for that predetermined distance somehow. I'm also pretty good at the steady state runs per McMillan definiton as I just need to focus on a upper end fast long run pace and I pretty much wind up in the right area.WhatMeRunning wrote: »Oh, I should have mentioned that after just a few runs at easy pace (however you calculate it), you will know you are in the right zone on future runs. It is a pace you feel you know you can carry on seemingly forever, and after a while you can begin proving that to yourself by running ridonkulous distances at that pace. The pace I struggle with most is Tempo pace. I always try to go too fast. I have my LT pace down pat. I know by feel that effort pretty dang well. But I also tend to do tempo runs at that pace (which is not OK).
Tempo is a weird word because it can mean different things according to who is using that term. So I am not sure how you are using it.
If you go by Greg McMillan he kind of defines 3 different "tempo" paces. There is the tempo interval pace (stolen from Jack Daniels cruise intervals) which is a pace just a tad bit faster than LTP. The tempo run itself which is right at or near LTP. Then he also defines steady state runs which is much longer but done just a little slower than LTP. Sounds like you are talking about steady state.
But running in the right Tempo Run pace per McMillan definitions is a hit or miss type thing. I either go a tough too slow and make it the whole way, or get about 50% of the way and wind up with my HR up too high and I just stop. At first I thought it was mental, but after a while I just realized my body was deciding to stop for me no matter what my brain thought. I always assumed I would collapse in a heap at that point, but apparently that is not the case. You just stop (or at least that is how it seems to be for me). 0 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »
I actually meant Tempo Run from the McMillan definition. My Tempo Intervals are easier as they are somewhat like LT pace but shorter, and I tend to pick up on the right pace for that predetermined distance somehow. I'm also pretty good at the steady state runs per McMillan definiton as I just need to focus on a upper end fast long run pace and I pretty much wind up in the right area.WhatMeRunning wrote: »Oh, I should have mentioned that after just a few runs at easy pace (however you calculate it), you will know you are in the right zone on future runs. It is a pace you feel you know you can carry on seemingly forever, and after a while you can begin proving that to yourself by running ridonkulous distances at that pace. The pace I struggle with most is Tempo pace. I always try to go too fast. I have my LT pace down pat. I know by feel that effort pretty dang well. But I also tend to do tempo runs at that pace (which is not OK).
Tempo is a weird word because it can mean different things according to who is using that term. So I am not sure how you are using it.
If you go by Greg McMillan he kind of defines 3 different "tempo" paces. There is the tempo interval pace (stolen from Jack Daniels cruise intervals) which is a pace just a tad bit faster than LTP. The tempo run itself which is right at or near LTP. Then he also defines steady state runs which is much longer but done just a little slower than LTP. Sounds like you are talking about steady state. But running in the right Tempo Run pace per McMillan definitions is a hit or miss type thing. I either go a tough too slow and make it the whole way, or get about 50% of the way and wind up with my HR up too high and I just stop. At first I thought it was mental, but after a while I just realized my body was deciding to stop for me no matter what my brain thought. I always assumed I would collapse in a heap at that point, but apparently that is not the case. You just stop (or at least that is how it seems to be for me).
Yup. Finding the exact LT tempo pace is very tough. Not only is your current fitness a factor but so many different enviornmental elements will effect your LTP for a given day. Heat and humidity will effect your LTP (the hotter or more humid it is, the slower you have to go). If you have a hill, you have to go slower up the hill to maintain LTP. If your legs are extra tired that day, or you didn't get as much sleep in, that effects your LTP. If you had extra stress at work or home, plan to run a lil slower. if you are slightly dehydrated, the heart has to work a lil extra to pump blood and that effects LTP. So if you say, I want to go on a "tempo" run, your brain automatically has a certain amount of "effort" based upon your habitual practice of previous "tempo" runs. But in reality, your true tempo pace or LTP changes day by day even so slightly. So this makes it very hard to hit it.0 -
@Stoshew71 - You had me wondering if I was thinking of my Tempo pace properly from your question. I'm wondering if McMillan has added something, perhaps from the Jack Daniels Cruise Intervals that you mentioned.
In the McMillan system (if that is the right term) there are 4 broad categories of paces; Endurance, Stamina, Speed and Sprint. Within the "Stamina" category are 4 types of runs (from hardest to easiest); Cruise Intervals, Tempo Intervals, Tempo Runs, Steady State Runs.
Cruise Intervals are run at an RPE of 5-8 (med-hard). Tempo Intervals are run at an RPE of 4-7 (med-hard). Tempo Runs are run at an RPE of 4-7 (medium), and Steady State is run at an RPE of 3-5 (Easy-Med).
Just thought I would ask, because I find my LT pace to be closer to Tempo Interval pace (but not quite), yet definitely a harder effort than Tempo Run pace.
Granted, McMillan does not formulate LT pace with the calculators on their site that determine these other paces. So while my LT runs are on my calendar as simply "Tempo Runs", the reason I make any extra effort which causes me to call it a LT run is if I am trying to run at least a 5k as fast as I can. I realize that may not be the exact definition of an LT pace, so apologies for any confusion that may cause. But that is really how I distinguish one currently using this McMillan system along with my own little tweaks (like trying for a 5k PR today).0 -
Sale on smartwool and other items. I got more half price socks
http://gearup.active.com/mobile/Event.aspx?l=000111862457000000000 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »@Stoshew71 - You had me wondering if I was thinking of my Tempo pace properly from your question. I'm wondering if McMillan has added something, perhaps from the Jack Daniels Cruise Intervals that you mentioned.
In the McMillan system (if that is the right term) there are 4 broad categories of paces; Endurance, Stamina, Speed and Sprint. Within the "Stamina" category are 4 types of runs (from hardest to easiest); Cruise Intervals, Tempo Intervals, Tempo Runs, Steady State Runs.
Cruise Intervals are run at an RPE of 5-8 (med-hard). Tempo Intervals are run at an RPE of 4-7 (med-hard). Tempo Runs are run at an RPE of 4-7 (medium), and Steady State is run at an RPE of 3-5 (Easy-Med).
Just thought I would ask, because I find my LT pace to be closer to Tempo Interval pace (but not quite), yet definitely a harder effort than Tempo Run pace.
Granted, McMillan does not formulate LT pace with the calculators on their site that determine these other paces. So while my LT runs are on my calendar as simply "Tempo Runs", the reason I make any extra effort which causes me to call it a LT run is if I am trying to run at least a 5k as fast as I can. I realize that may not be the exact definition of an LT pace, so apologies for any confusion that may cause. But that is really how I distinguish one currently using this McMillan system along with my own little tweaks (like trying for a 5k PR today).
And thus my original questioning. "Tempo" is a very subjective word and has different meanings depending on who is defining it. Lactate Threshold however shouldn't be so subjective. However, how you find it is.
LT by definition is that pace of running just before your lactate accumulation begins to outpace your ability to clear it. The only way to definitivetely define that is by running on a treadmill in a special lab and get it tested. So for us mere mortals, we try and find ways to estimate it by using observable characteristics about LT. For example, it is about the pace you can sustain in a race at maximum effort for an hour. So if i had a race that took me an hour and that race was my PR, you could say that I ran it right about at LT.
There are HR and VO2max estimations as well. So if you run ~75-90% of HRmax then that is about your tempo range. This is very subjective tho because LT and HR relationship is very individualized and improves with training. But there are tools online that are supposed to help you determine your LTHR. I never used them before tho.
Then you have perceived effort. Daniels uses the term "comfortably hard". I am not sure how subjective that is. How comfortable should a tempo pace be or how hard but yet comfortable? Is hard all that comfortable? You tell me. LOL
Some try to define it as, you can get 2 or 3 words out but if you are just hyperventalating, then that is way too fast.
I used McMillan's calculator and it gives me vLT and used that as my pace. The bad thing is if I put in my HM PR it gives me a slightly different vLT then if I put in my 10K or full PR. So I figure out my vLT based upon all 3 of my PRs and then take the average of that. Then on my tempo days, I am just constantly looking at my watch to make sure I stay within that pace that i am shooting for. I think I also run them too fast but hey it's close.
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@WhatMeRunning Those Jack Daniels tables sound really interesting, I'll have a look at them.
On the resting heart rate: I recently installed an app on my phone which uses the phone camara & LED to measure the heart rate. There are actually a few apps like that out there (runtastic heart rate, instant heart rate, ...). I've done a few cross checks with my running HRM, and the app is usually within +-2 beats of that. Accurate enough for me, and since I have my phone on my bedside table to use as alarm clock, I could also take a measurement without any effort first. That is, if I would remember to actually do that in my sleep-bedraggled state right after waking up, but I guess that problem would persist with the special gadget ;-)0 -
Just in case some data may help anyone curious at all, here's some comparisons between my current data in the Daniel's tables (from the spreadsheet I linked earlier) and the McMillan site based on my 5k time this morning on that "Tempo Run" that was run at what I perceived as the fastest speed I could maintain for 5k (from feel/experience). I was not paying any attention to announcements of pace from my phone on my run today, it was all by feel.
5k time - 31:45 (10:13/mile) Avg. HR 160, Max HR 166
Daniel's Tables:
Recovery Pace - 14:20/mile (HR 117 bpm)
Easy Aerobic Zone - 13:23 to 12:33/mile (HR 126-135 bpm)
Mod. Aerobic Zone - 12:14/mile (HR 140 bpm)
Hi. Aerobic Zone - 11:56/mile (HR 145 bpm)
LT Pace - 10:38/mile (HR 158-166 bpm)
Marathon Pace - 11:37/mile (HR 150 bpm)
1/2 Marathon Pace - 11:08/mile (HR 154 bpm)
10k Pace - 10:39/mile (HR 162 bpm)
5k Pace - 10:13/mile (HR 169 bpm) - Actual avg 160 max 166
1 mile Pace - 9:20 (HR 180 bpm)
McMillan calculations
Recovery Jogs - 12:24 to 13:19/mile (HR 107-125 bpm)
Easy Run - 11:31 to 12:16/mile (HR 107-151 bpm)
Long Run - 11:34 to 12:41/mile (HR 107-151 bpm)
Steady State Run - 10:43 to 11:13/mile (HR 148-155 bpm)
Tempo Run - 10:19 to 10:41/mile (HR 151-160 bpm) Today's Tempo (LT) Run was 10:13/mile with HR 160
Tempo Intervals - 10:08 to 10:35/mile (HR 155-164 bpm) Today's Tempo (LT) Run was 10:13/mile with HR 160
1 mile Cruise Intervals - 10:07 to 10:21/mile (HR 155-164 bpm)
800m Cruise Intervals - 5:02 to 5:09/mile (HR 155-164 bpm)
1600m Speedwork Intervals - 9:48 to 10:09/mile (HR 160-178 bpm)
800m Speedwork Intervals - 4:34 to 4:45/mile (HR 160-178 bpm)
So from the above, as mentioned, I am getting closer results from the McMillan in my case than Jack Daniel's. According to Jack Daniel's though I was faster my LT pace today, but at the same time Daniels suggests my HR should have been an average of 6 bpm higher than it was for the same distance/pace.
None of these are perfect, and vary from person to person. But thought it might help if anyone was curious how these things compared for any reason.0 -
I have the same results on my phone, it is within about +/- 2bpm every time I compare it. Granted, I got this phone and that app after I bought that little device._nikkiwolf_ wrote: »@WhatMeRunning Those Jack Daniels tables sound really interesting, I'll have a look at them.
On the resting heart rate: I recently installed an app on my phone which uses the phone camara & LED to measure the heart rate. There are actually a few apps like that out there (runtastic heart rate, instant heart rate, ...). I've done a few cross checks with my running HRM, and the app is usually within +-2 beats of that. Accurate enough for me, and since I have my phone on my bedside table to use as alarm clock, I could also take a measurement without any effort first. That is, if I would remember to actually do that in my sleep-bedraggled state right after waking up, but I guess that problem would persist with the special gadget ;-) Glad you mentioned it though. A good option. 0 -
Last time I checked in there were 23 pages. Now 39. So I wont even try to catch up.
I'm logging one more mile.
9/15 miles done
Keep up the great work everybody!
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