Cardio isn't for "fat burning".
Replies
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The thread exists to educate people who have been told to that they can't burn fat without cardio and that cardio is a better exercise to burn fat. It's basically not true.Either way, I'm not sure why this thread exists. Was anyone actually saying that eating at maintenance would cause fat loss just because cardio was performed? Was this a response to another thread?
There are many many people who join a gym and do tons of cardio (and weight lifting) with no results. Why? Because they're still not in calorie deficit (or surplus if trying to gain weight).
I get asked this question about cardio ALL the time by new people.
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Also
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10348363/burning-fat#latest0 -
Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.0 -
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I have a question, and I hope it's not too dumb. First, I understand about the calorie deficit. But what about cases where you are indeed, in a calorie deficit for the day -- however the food eaten was high sodium (like salted shelled pistachios) and drinking water or ice green tea (no sugar) all day. I have noticed on the days where I eat to much salted foods but still keep a calorie deficit, I gain weight at times. Water and green tea have zero calories but I believe I am carrying the weight of the fluids. I watch every calorie that goes into me. I am working hard (through exercise and proper eating and maintaining a calorie deficit) to lose weight and on average lose about 1/4 to 1/2 lb. about every other day. But when my sodium intake is high, I do not lose weight even with a deficit and sometimes gain weight instead.0
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Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
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chrismansa wrote: »I have a question, and I hope it's not too dumb. First, I understand about the calorie deficit. But what about cases where you are indeed, in a calorie deficit for the day -- however the food eaten was high sodium (like salted shelled pistachios) and drinking water or ice green tea (no sugar) all day. I have noticed on the days where I eat to much salted foods but still keep a calorie deficit, I gain weight at times. Water and green tea have zero calories but I believe I am carrying the weight of the fluids. I watch every calorie that goes into me. I am working hard (through exercise and proper eating and maintaining a calorie deficit) to lose weight and on average lose about 1/4 to 1/2 lb. about every other day. But when my sodium intake is high, I do not lose weight even with a deficit and sometimes gain weight instead.
It's the water weight from the sodium in the nuts0 -
It's the water weight from the sodium in the nuts [/quote]
But then that means I can gain weight even though I have a calorie deficit, right?0 -
chrismansa wrote: »It's the water weight from the sodium in the nuts
But then that means I can gain weight even though I have a calorie deficit, right? [/quote]
Water weight is different than fat weight.0 -
OK I understand now. Thank you. I hope that means that the water weight is temporary.0
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chrismansa wrote: »OK I understand now. Thank you. I hope that means that the water weight is temporary.
Eventually it has to be released. This leads to what some call the woosh - instances where weight has not changed for a long time, sometimes weeks, and suddenly it releases. Some people get confused by the fact that it seems like it tends to happen after days of high calorie intake. Part of that is just people being imperfect at remembering all the times the scale weight did go down during low calorie days, and part of it may be that eating counters hormones that tend to favor water retention.0 -
chrismansa wrote: »OK I understand now. Thank you. I hope that means that the water weight is temporary.
Eventually it has to be released. This leads to what some call the woosh - instances where weight has not changed for a long time, sometimes weeks, and suddenly it releases. Some people get confused by the fact that it seems like it tends to happen after days of high calorie intake. Part of that is just people being imperfect at remembering all the times the scale weight did go down during low calorie days, and part of it may be that eating counters hormones that tend to favor water retention.
Thank you senecarr. That is good information to know. I love this thread. I have learned so much from the discussion in this forum. I feel like it took me a million years to finally "get it".0 -
chrismansa wrote: »chrismansa wrote: »OK I understand now. Thank you. I hope that means that the water weight is temporary.
Eventually it has to be released. This leads to what some call the woosh - instances where weight has not changed for a long time, sometimes weeks, and suddenly it releases. Some people get confused by the fact that it seems like it tends to happen after days of high calorie intake. Part of that is just people being imperfect at remembering all the times the scale weight did go down during low calorie days, and part of it may be that eating counters hormones that tend to favor water retention.
Thank you senecarr. That is good information to know. I love this thread. I have learned so much from the discussion in this forum. I feel like it took me a million years to finally "get it".
Yep, he's the man0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »chrismansa wrote: »chrismansa wrote: »OK I understand now. Thank you. I hope that means that the water weight is temporary.
Eventually it has to be released. This leads to what some call the woosh - instances where weight has not changed for a long time, sometimes weeks, and suddenly it releases. Some people get confused by the fact that it seems like it tends to happen after days of high calorie intake. Part of that is just people being imperfect at remembering all the times the scale weight did go down during low calorie days, and part of it may be that eating counters hormones that tend to favor water retention.
Thank you senecarr. That is good information to know. I love this thread. I have learned so much from the discussion in this forum. I feel like it took me a million years to finally "get it".
Yep, he's the man
Who da man?0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »chrismansa wrote: »chrismansa wrote: »OK I understand now. Thank you. I hope that means that the water weight is temporary.
Eventually it has to be released. This leads to what some call the woosh - instances where weight has not changed for a long time, sometimes weeks, and suddenly it releases. Some people get confused by the fact that it seems like it tends to happen after days of high calorie intake. Part of that is just people being imperfect at remembering all the times the scale weight did go down during low calorie days, and part of it may be that eating counters hormones that tend to favor water retention.
Thank you senecarr. That is good information to know. I love this thread. I have learned so much from the discussion in this forum. I feel like it took me a million years to finally "get it".
Yep, he's the man
Who da man?
@senecarr da man!0 -
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
It's a, perhaps theoretical, maximum. If you are an athlete burning a few thousand calories and trying to make weight it can be of concern since they would be interested in knowing when they might be catabolizing muscle. For a lightly active person trying to lose some fat it's not likely to be as much of a concern.
ETA for me I could oxidize about 500 calories of fat a day so it's a concern for me if I want to cut.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
It's a, perhaps theoretical, maximum. If you are an athlete burning a few thousand calories and trying to make weight it can be of concern since they would be interested in knowing when they might be catabolizing muscle. For a lightly active person trying to lose some fat it's not likely to be as much of a concern.
ETA for me I could oxidize about 500 calories of fat a day so it's a concern for me if I want to cut.
But it is a concern, even for a lightly active overfat person.
The common wisdom regarding a safe deficit seems to be 20% off of TDEE. So, in this example, a 20% deficit for this particular woman would be 394 kcal/day (1970 *0.20 = 394). This would put her calorie intake at 1576.
If, on the other hand, she followed a 1200 kcal diet, which many woman latch onto as the "standard" diet regimen, then her deficit is now 770 kcal. And, we know that many women who have a "goal" of 1200 actually eat less than that some of the time, perhaps coming in at 1150 or 1100 or worse. (It isn't advisable to do this because presumably it becomes more and more difficult to get adequate macro and micro nutrition at lower and lower intakes.)
So, maximum fat oxidation is a concern, even in a fat, lightly active individual. Is this woman catabolizing her muscle mass when she consumes 1100 or 1150 kcal, because indeed real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal/pound of body fat?
I don't know, but my guess is yes.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
It's a, perhaps theoretical, maximum. If you are an athlete burning a few thousand calories and trying to make weight it can be of concern since they would be interested in knowing when they might be catabolizing muscle. For a lightly active person trying to lose some fat it's not likely to be as much of a concern.
ETA for me I could oxidize about 500 calories of fat a day so it's a concern for me if I want to cut.
But it is a concern, even for a lightly active overfat person.
The common wisdom regarding a safe deficit seems to be 20% off of TDEE. So, in this example, a 20% deficit for this particular woman would be 394 kcal/day (1970 *0.20 = 394). This would put her calorie intake at 1576.
If, on the other hand, she followed a 1200 kcal diet, which many woman latch onto as the "standard" diet regimen, then her deficit is now 770 kcal. And, we know that many women who have a "goal" of 1200 actually eat less than that some of the time, perhaps coming in at 1150 or 1100 or worse. (It isn't advisable to do this because presumably it becomes more and more difficult to get adequate macro and micro nutrition at lower and lower intakes.)
So, maximum fat oxidation is a concern, even in a fat, lightly active individual. Is this woman catabolizing her muscle mass when she consumes 1100 or 1150 kcal, because indeed real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal/pound of body fat?
I don't know, but my guess is yes.
She is losing muscle because she is in a deficit and not taking steps to preserve the muscle. You will always lose some muscle when you lose fat but if you aren't taking steps to minimize muscle loss then you probably don't care about this either would be my guess.
As for your 1200 KCal diet plan, if someone follows then they probably are only concerend about the numbers on the scale and nothing more.0 -
Sounds about right. Remember we burn more fat calories at rest than exercising. Most people will exercise 30-60 minutes a day on average so that leaves 23 hours of time that we are at rest or low intensity of physical activity.
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
Subtract 1736 from 1970 and you have 234 calories still in surplus. Also take into consideration some fat is restored through the eating process even though there may be a calorie deficit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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If you stepped on a scale and weighed________, then drank 8oz of water and stepped on the scale again, you'd weigh 8oz more. It's not "real" weight.chrismansa wrote: »I have a question, and I hope it's not too dumb. First, I understand about the calorie deficit. But what about cases where you are indeed, in a calorie deficit for the day -- however the food eaten was high sodium (like salted shelled pistachios) and drinking water or ice green tea (no sugar) all day. I have noticed on the days where I eat to much salted foods but still keep a calorie deficit, I gain weight at times. Water and green tea have zero calories but I believe I am carrying the weight of the fluids. I watch every calorie that goes into me. I am working hard (through exercise and proper eating and maintaining a calorie deficit) to lose weight and on average lose about 1/4 to 1/2 lb. about every other day. But when my sodium intake is high, I do not lose weight even with a deficit and sometimes gain weight instead.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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12 pages on this? Really? I love you, MFP.
There seem to be a few people that don't know what maintenance/deficits and surpluses are...lol0 -
And many people thought that math wouldn't be that useful while they were in school.12 pages on this? Really? I love you, MFP.
There seem to be a few people that don't know what maintenance/deficits and surpluses are...lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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But it is a concern, even for a lightly active overfat person.
The common wisdom regarding a safe deficit seems to be 20% off of TDEE. So, in this example, a 20% deficit for this particular woman would be 394 kcal/day (1970 *0.20 = 394). This would put her calorie intake at 1576.
If, on the other hand, she followed a 1200 kcal diet, which many woman latch onto as the "standard" diet regimen, then her deficit is now 770 kcal. And, we know that many women who have a "goal" of 1200 actually eat less than that some of the time, perhaps coming in at 1150 or 1100 or worse. (It isn't advisable to do this because presumably it becomes more and more difficult to get adequate macro and micro nutrition at lower and lower intakes.)
So, maximum fat oxidation is a concern, even in a fat, lightly active individual. Is this woman catabolizing her muscle mass when she consumes 1100 or 1150 kcal, because indeed real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal/pound of body fat?
I don't know, but my guess is yes.
I think it could be a concern, especially with larger deficits. Based on the example you give below...
....
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
......then the fat store calories could only provide 1.2 calories per minute. Any activity above that level, which is already less than TDEE, would have to be supplied by the glycogen stores and the food the person is eating day to day. Depending on the total dietary deficit and the macro ratios, the ability to restore the glycogen might be limited to doing so slowly. Being that a person 160 pounds can easily require calories well above 1.2 per minute in even mild forms of exercise, the energy from sources other than the fat have to make it up.
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And many people thought that math wouldn't be that useful while they were in school.12 pages on this? Really? I love you, MFP.
There seem to be a few people that don't know what maintenance/deficits and surpluses are...lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And this is just arithmatic. 0 -
I think the original post was mis-interpreted by some as meaning meeting TDEE AND working out does not reduce fat. I read it as you eat to TDEE, your are dead even, and in maintenance. You exercise and now you are in deficit. So you lose weight. The basic statement that "cardio doesn't burn fat" just freaks people out.
The OP says a couple of posts later that is because the health industry, mainly the mags and product makers. They offer plenty of confusion. They sell you "fat burning" workouts or pills. They don't explain about the diet numbers.
My gal and I read the mags. She likes to see the different workout ideas. I like to see if they have any useful data and some of the gals look good ;-) She also went right off when I said, cardio doesn't burn fat. She was like WTF do you mean, that's stupid. I eat clean, stay the calorie number we agreed on, and exercise. I've lost 25lbs. So I know you're just messing with me...
The explanation in more detail was then acceptable. Simply saying "cardio doesn't burn fat" just confuses people and they react quickly and negatively. Not everyone on here had a degree in health and nutrition and didn't immediately pick up on what the OP meant. Just my 2 cents worth.0 -
I think the original post was mis-interpreted by some as meaning meeting TDEE AND working out does not reduce fat. I read it as you eat to TDEE, your are dead even, and in maintenance. You exercise and now you are in deficit. So you lose weight. The basic statement that "cardio doesn't burn fat" just freaks people out.
Maybe people are misinterpreting, but that would be because they don't know what the definitions of the words they are using, apparently.
TDEE includes exercise by definition. You don't "eat to TDEE" (which I'm assuming you mean maintenance), and then add exercise. Exercise is INCLUDED in your TDEE. If your exercise increases, so does your TDEE.0 -
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
No idea what the average maximum fat oxidation may be, but I doubt it is far off this. It is recommended that VLCD diets be medically supervised to preserve muscle and maintain good nutrition, but they are in fact done all the time. If an obese person would burn through large amounts of their lean mass then I can't imagine it being used so often. That person is living on that fat oxidation.
I had a surprisingly large loss between my past two weigh ins. Maybe some water (always a factor), but it isn't when I usually have a big drop in water and the scales have been moving so don't know about a fat whoosh either.
I added up the numbers just for fun.
Sedentary TDEE: 10,740 calories (multiple days on these)
Calories logged on MFP: 7,923
Deficit of 2,817 calories, or less than a pound. But I wasn't sedentary, I just don't actively track exercise and I did 3 spinning classes in that time period.
Happens I just did a body fat calculation at the start of this period and I got 68 pounds of fat using the Navy tape method, so if the fat oxidation rate is 31 calories a pound that gives me 2,108 calories a day/12,648 total available to burn from fat stores.
I lost 4 pounds so IF that were all fat that would be a 14,000 calorie deficit - so 24,740 calories and I ate 7,923.
The difference had to come from somewhere.
And spinning kicks my butt.
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Sounds about right. Remember we burn more fat calories at rest than exercising. Most people will exercise 30-60 minutes a day on average so that leaves 23 hours of time that we are at rest or low intensity of physical activity.
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
Subtract 1736 from 1970 and you have 234 calories still in surplus. Also take into consideration some fat is restored through the eating process even though there may be a calorie deficit.
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????
@ninerbuff I that perhaps think you read through my post too quickly. Could you please reread it and respond again?
I am not sure that I understand your response to me and I think it is because you misunderstood what I wrote.
I am questioning the validity of a 31 kcal/pound fat oxidation rate. I do not think that that rate is realistic. Using her TDEE of 1970 and her fat store of 56 pounds, are you saying that she could consume a mere 234 calories per day and live off her fat stores at the oxidation rate of 1736 kcal per day (56 x 31). People have survived on tiny amounts of food during famines. However, she truly would be starving.
My whole point is that 31 kcal/pound of fat seems way, way too high to me. My suspicion is that real world fat oxidation rates would more likely much, much lower before muscle catabolism starts. But I haven't studied physiology so what do I know? It just seems like 31 kcal/pound is super high to me.
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I'll regret it as soon as I hit the "post reply" button, but I'm gonna throw this out there for input, anyway.
Here's what I've done, with some degree of success, since starting down this path last June.
I've ignored my TDEE, because I've been able to exercise so irregularly. I ran the MFP calculator with the "sedentary" option, and let it set my number for me, which is currently 1740. I'm 50, 5', 9", and currently weigh 201 pounds (down from my initial 279), and I've rerun the MFP calculator every 20-25 pounds or so.
I never "eat back exercise calories", even on days when I'm able to spend an hour on the elliptical or get in 12-15 miles on the bike, as my attitude is that i'd rather reap the rewards of the work than eat it back.
I haven't always been successful in that mindset, but that's how I've tried to look at it.
@ninerbuff in particular has provided a ton of information here that's been directly responsible for altering the way I've approached this, specifically with regard to the relationship between exercise and fat loss, stressing the importance of CICO, laying off alcohol to avoid the body's tendency to reprioritize what's burned off first, allowing the body to burn fat stores at rest and such.
I was a little confused at first as to how it could be possible not to achieve some degree of weight loss/fat burn through exercise, but when you take the time to think about it objectively it really does make sense.
the budgetary analogy someone made very early on in the thread makes perfect sense. except, in our cases, we should manage our budget the way the government does - in order to get the desired result, you MUST expend more than you take in on a regular basis. if you're spending less than you make, or exactly what you make, you won't see any results. in order to lose fat/weight, you have to operate at a deficit.
adding cardio to the mix simply means that you have to factor the extra dollars into your budget deficit to remain as insolvent as possible.
OK, now having gotten that off my chest - this discussion of fat oxidation isn't something I've seen come up here before. Are these all standard calculations based purely on weight and BMI, or are there other factors to consider when trying to determine how many fat calories an individual might oxidize in a 24 hour period? I'm sure activity comes into play somewhere, right?0 -
Sounds about right. Remember we burn more fat calories at rest than exercising. Most people will exercise 30-60 minutes a day on average so that leaves 23 hours of time that we are at rest or low intensity of physical activity.
Thanks for this. I remember covering this back in college (a long time ago).Protranser wrote: »Isn't there some knowledge floating around these forums that describes a maximum amount of fat that the oxidized per day?
If there is a maximum amount of fat that can be oxidized per day, and, one exceeds the oxidation maximum through calorie deficit, what happens when you exceed the maximum oxidation limit? Where does the energy come from if not fat?
Estimation is the maximum fat oxidation per day is 31 calories per pound of body fat per day.
Unfortunately, that number is based on standard physiology (a weight lifter with above average lean mass probably has a higher limit) and up to moderate amounts of exercise - bouts of high intensity exercise might allow exceeding this limit, particularly in an individual with the physiological adaptations that would allow such bouts to occur. For the most part, 31 kCal/pound body fat/day represents a deficit limit for people mainly losing via dietary calorie cutting versus neat, and not someone looking to lose weight via excess exercise.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have read this before, but this is hard for me to believe or understand.
Let's run some real numbers.
Let's take a 5'4" lightly active, 30-year old woman of 160 pounds and 35% body fat. This gives her 56 pounds of body fat (160 * 0.35 = 56). Her BMR is on the order of 1430 and her TDEE is on the order of 1970.
31 kcal per pound of body fat would be 1736 kcal (31*56 = 1736).
Something tells me that real world maximum fat oxidation is FAR less than 31 kcal per pound.
(Edited with slightly different numbers.)
Subtract 1736 from 1970 and you have 234 calories still in surplus. Also take into consideration some fat is restored through the eating process even though there may be a calorie deficit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
????
@ninerbuff I that perhaps think you read through my post too quickly. Could you please reread it and respond again?
I am not sure that I understand your response to me and I think it is because you misunderstood what I wrote.
I am questioning the validity of a 31 kcal/pound fat oxidation rate. I do not think that that rate is realistic. Using her TDEE of 1970 and her fat store of 56 pounds, are you saying that she could consume a mere 234 calories per day and live off her fat stores at the oxidation rate of 1736 kcal per day (56 x 31). People have survived on tiny amounts of food during famines. However, she truly would be starving.
My whole point is that 31 kcal/pound of fat seems way, way too high to me. My suspicion is that real world fat oxidation rates would more likely much, much lower before muscle catabolism starts. But I haven't studied physiology so what do I know? It just seems like 31 kcal/pound is super high to me.
Maybe that is the amount of fat you can oxidize period, and that muscle loss may happen in unison, or after say 10kcal, but by the time you hit 31, 100% of loss comes from elsewhere (muscle/organs,etc.??)
so to burn 31kcal from a lb of fat per day, may also mean that during that time your body burns 20kcal from other sources?0
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