Paleo diet: honest debate
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Can't go without meat? That's a pretty lame excuse. "Don't knock it till you've tried it". I bet it's not as hard as you think it might be. (I'm not a vegan. I'm just saying....)
As a diet paleo might work fine, but as a lifestyle I think it's an idiotic idea and puts too much of an emphasis on meat (I'm a fan of higher carb diets. And if your aim with paleo is to go back to primitive like diets (I know you said for you it is not), meat as a staple food is a bad bad idea). I also think your reasoning to go back to 'just the basics' is pretty lacking- paleo diet includes a TON of foods. Go fully raw (raw vegan) if you want to start from scratch and work your way up. I've heard of way more sucess stories for clear skin and all those bullets you have from raw food dieters than from people who go paleo anyways. But you'd be giving up a lot more than just meat. Either way, you can give up anything for just a week as an experiment I'm sure, so might as well try paleo and see if you feel even a bit better. You can always go more drastic as raw foodist or move onto juice cleanses or whatever other diets there are if paleo doesn't work. If you want to try it, you might as well.0 -
I wonder why very few Paleo versions advocate snacking on insects all day like early humans did while hunting and foraging. You may find the random short blog post, but rarely would you see insects treated as the staple food they were. Insects are pretty nutritious and some cultures still eat them, I guess it just sounds less appealing for a book that needs to sell.0
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Yikes dairy is so acidic it actually prevents calcium from it to be absorbed.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Yikes dairy is so acidic it actually prevents calcium from it to be absorbed.
Post the source of that0 -
See how you feel, bottom line. If you eliminate the processed junk, and balance your macros, you should be fine. Some populations have mutations to deal with lactose, some don't. The live cultures in many dairy products may be beneficial. Wheat allergy is common...try avoiding it for two weeks, reintroduce it, and check for symptoms. I personally do modified paleo, with dairy (natural for mammals, so why not), and some grains. Your body will tell you what it needs.0
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I'm sorry am I not allowed to do that? I also don't excercise much or weight train but I would sure as hell reccomend it to people who want to be healthy. And actually, veganism is proven to be an extremely healthy diet (says the mayo clinic, health.com, sciencedaily, the ncbi/us national library of medicine, american society for nutrition, and huffington post (and while some of those studies were admittedly for vegetarians, the idea I think is still the same)).vinegar_husbands wrote: »So you're not a vegan, but you're telling a meat-eater to go fully raw? Huh?
If @robs_ready is concerned about his overall health, veganism (and especially raw/HCLF) is a big no no.
High carb is actually a big Heck-Yes. Carbs are the bodies prefered source of fuel. No citation needed, it's that well believed. No, I don't believe raw veganism is going to turn out great for everyone (it takes a ton of focus to plan your meals and nutrients right), but high carb veganism, or at least vegetarianism, has been extensively proven to be beneficial if your not filling up with Oreos all day.
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withoutasaddle wrote: »
I'm sorry am I not allowed to do that? I also don't excercise much or weight train but I would sure as hell reccomend it to people who want to be healthy. And actually, veganism is proven to be an extremely healthy diet (says the mayo clinic, health.com, sciencedaily, the ncbi/us national library of medicine, american society for nutrition, and huffington post (and while some of those studies were admittedly for vegetarians, the idea I think is still the same)).vinegar_husbands wrote: »So you're not a vegan, but you're telling a meat-eater to go fully raw? Huh?
If @robs_ready is concerned about his overall health, veganism (and especially raw/HCLF) is a big no no.
High carb is actually a big Heck-Yes. Carbs are the bodies prefered source of fuel. No citation needed, it's that well believed. No, I don't believe raw veganism is going to turn out great for everyone (it takes a ton of focus to plan your meals and nutrients right), but high carb veganism, or at least vegetarianism, has been extensively proven to be beneficial if your not filling up with Oreos all day.
Oreos, FTW! right @Carlos_421 ?0 -
All explaining why milk calcium is not absorbed wellsunnybeaches105 wrote: »Post the source of that
http://www.pcrm.org/health/health-topics/calcium-and-strong-bones
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/calcium-and-milk/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/248912-foods-that-leach-calcium
https://www.afpafitness.com/research-articles/calcium-and-protein-a-mixture-for-disaster0 -
If you're interested in reality, it's below. The China Study and blood pH diet myths have been thoroughly discredited.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221717440_Milk_and_Acid-Base_Balance_Proposed_Hypothesis_versus_Scientific_Evidence
https://www.nsca.com/uploadedfiles/nsca/inactive_content/program_books/ptc_2013_program_book/aragon.pdf
As for blood pH itself, here: https://authoritynutrition.com/the-alkaline-diet-myth/0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Yikes dairy is so acidic it actually prevents calcium from it to be absorbed.
When will this myth die out?
Dairy calcium remains one of the best absorbed sources. If anything, oxalates in spinach interfere with calcium absorption to a large degree and sodium in sardines and salmon somewhat increases the amount dumped with urine.
Generally most food sources of calcium have less than 50% bioavailability, certain dairy products are way on the top of the list. For those interested in highly absorbable plant forms, kale and bok choy are your friend. If we are talking about the amount of absorbed calcium per serving, taking into account both amount per serving and bioavailability, dairy tops the list.
All of that doesn't matter though. There are many sources of calcium and many calcium fortified foods, so it's easy to obtain. It's just annoying how some myths won't die out.
P.S: The alkaline diet is a bunch of hooey and acids are actually used to increase the bioavailability of some supplemental forms of calcium.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Yikes dairy is so acidic it actually prevents calcium from it to be absorbed.
No.0 -
I find it fishy that there's any benefits to grass-fed meat, dairy & eggs. Also, grains aren't the culprit unless you have celiacs.0
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robs_ready wrote: »myheartsabattleground wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »To aid with left over symptoms of adhd as a child, inattentiveness and sleep problems.
WRONG. You're born with ADHD, you'll die with ADHD. It doesn't magically go away when you get older.
No, adhd is a 'behavioral' disorder not a 'mental' illness or 'syndrome', most individuals with adhd grow out of it as adults.
No no no! This is completely incorrect. As someone who has ADHD (inattentive) with a son who is combined, this is not something that we grow out of....now as an adult, many have adapted, but the underlying deficiencies are still there. As with most with ADHD I will always been challenged with executive function. Of course I don't know any different...but when I finally went in for a formal diagnosis, coaching and treatment...it was very eye opening how listen to how non ADHD brains function.
Of course the lack/reduction of executive function is in the reason for binge behaviours (maybe not surprising that vyvance is now approved for BED), overweight, higher incidence of car accidents any many other effects.
As for treatment, most drug are stimulants...the difference for me is night and day, I can actually sit through a 15 minute discussion with some one and be engaged the entire time. I am not constantly forgetting things, losing things...plus countless other benefits, including being ask manage my weight for the first time since childhood.
As for foods, there are many studies that indicate that they impact ADHD. Clearly stimulants such as coffee (many of us inadvertently self medicate with caffeine) but also other chemicals such as aspartame. More recently there have been paper indicating a reduction of protein (and particular amino acids) in the brain and hence higher protein is recommended.
Now by no means is ADHD a curse...with it often comes non linear thinking, creativity, ability to hyperfocus....with any medication the ultimate goal is to keep these desirable traits and mitigate the severe symptoms.
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Yikes dairy is so acidic it actually prevents calcium from it to be absorbed.
https://phet.colorado.edu/sims/html/ph-scale-basics/latest/ph-scale-basics_en.html
6.5
Soup is more acidic than milk.0 -
If you think dairy is acidic, try hydrochloric acid, aka the stuff naturally occurring in your stomach, at pH 2. If pancreatic secretions can buffer HCl in the small intestine, they can buffer milk.0
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robs_ready wrote: »Cindy01Louisiana wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »myheartsabattleground wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »To aid with left over symptoms of adhd as a child, inattentiveness and sleep problems.
WRONG. You're born with ADHD, you'll die with ADHD. It doesn't magically go away when you get older.
No, adhd is a 'behavioral' disorder not a 'mental' illness or 'syndrome', most individuals with adhd grow out of it as adults.
Hmmmmnnnn....I would LOVE love love to see this study or when and how this conclusion was made. My daughter has ADD and it is just as prevalent in her life now, at 26, as it was in 4th grade. Please share a link or two?
Sure, although If you Google adhd NHS you'll see a link there, which clearly highlights adhd as a set of behaviour problems, as opposed to a mental illness.
Adhd does usually come with comorbid mental health problems.
Combined with my knowledge after dealing with this issue with my daughter for 20 years, having adult friends with ADD, and a super quick search this morning, I disagree with you again.
Here is a link to University of Cambridge study abstract and pdf from last summer that says young adults who had ADHD when they were younger exhibited differences in brain structure and poorer memory performance compared to their peers who never had the disorder. Aspects of the disorder tended to persist into adulthood, even in those subjects who were not diagnosed as adults:
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00787-015-0755-80 -
withoutasaddle wrote: »
I'm sorry am I not allowed to do that? I also don't excercise much or weight train but I would sure as hell reccomend it to people who want to be healthy. And actually, veganism is proven to be an extremely healthy diet (says the mayo clinic, health.com, sciencedaily, the ncbi/us national library of medicine, american society for nutrition, and huffington post (and while some of those studies were admittedly for vegetarians, the idea I think is still the same)).vinegar_husbands wrote: »So you're not a vegan, but you're telling a meat-eater to go fully raw? Huh?
If @robs_ready is concerned about his overall health, veganism (and especially raw/HCLF) is a big no no.
High carb is actually a big Heck-Yes. Carbs are the bodies prefered source of fuel. No citation needed, it's that well believed. No, I don't believe raw veganism is going to turn out great for everyone (it takes a ton of focus to plan your meals and nutrients right), but high carb veganism, or at least vegetarianism, has been extensively proven to be beneficial if your not filling up with Oreos all day.
Except a lot of those sources touting the health benefits of veganism *aren't* talking about raw veganism. There are few large studies of how raw vegans fare and lots of evidence that it can put people at risk for deficiencies in many cases. Extrapolating about raw vegan health from studies of vegetarians is ridiculous.0 -
I eat quite similar to Paleo and love it, with the big exception of dairy. (I also eliminated or reduced foods based on how they made me feel, not because it may have been how our ancestors ate.) I agree with their principals to eat clean organic preservative-free foods, and not to eat foods that upset our digestion, but I can't embrace the 'no dairy' rule. I have tried to find convincing reports and studies as to why I should avoid dairy (other than an obvious allergy situation), but nothing has convinced me. I've read a lot by Campbell, Ornish and the whole vegan community too. I don't guzzle milk or anything like that, just some cream in my coffee, cheese on my salad, and some fruit with Greek yogurt each day. I feel like I get all of the benefits listed by Paleo, but I will never identify myself as Paleo because I eat dairy. However I do think it's a healthy plan, just not for everyone as it require a lot of planning.0
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