I understand and then I don't (scales and weighing and calorie worrying)
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endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
If people could get fit without counting calories, they'd probably do that too. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using calorie counting as a tool for weight loss or that the people who choose it are only comfortable with what they know and don't want to expand.
Food scales, calorie databases, . . . these things are just tools. I don't think one can make assumptions about broader personality traits based on someone choosing to use certain tools for weight loss over others.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I never said anything wrong with counting. In fact it's the right way if that's all you know and are getting results. Actually there's no right or wrong. It's just effectiveness and the cost of it. Many people still use shovels to move dirt. Then, there are those who use tractors.
To me counting is just a rudimentary approach to controlling weight.
You're still assuming it is "all I know." I've tried not weighing, it didn't work well for me. I'm not choosing this out of not knowing what is out there. I'm choosing it because I know what options are available and this is what works best for me. Why is that so hard to understand?
In my book, that means you don't know not weighing.
But enough debating like this. If you don't understand my logic above, I doubt any more debating would help.
So your premise is anyone who prefers using a certain tool to not using a certain tool is just wrong (AKA, doesn't "know" what you know). That can't be proven or disproven and there isn't really a way for anyone to engage with that.
What you've posted above isn't "logic." It's just your opinion on what people who choose to use a scale don't know, based on your assumption of what is going on in our minds.
Look at the logic of your statement "I've tried not weighing, it didn't work well for me. "
That's like, a travel guide saying I know the city, and then he gets in detours, delays, etc. but eventually gets you to your destination whereas other guides get their tourists to their destination expeditely.
That's like, a new hire saying I know how to use the computer to produce a company letter, and she takes days to produce an average document, whereas people are known to be able to produce a great letter in an hour.
But when I point out to the example travel guide and the new hire that they do not really know what they are doing, they fight back and say that's not logic; it's just my opinion. LOL.
I just want to point out that this is actually the opposite of using a food scale.
The food scale user goes to the city has a map and exact train times. The non weigher is the one who says the train comes about every ten minutes and that the destination is approximately five miles away.
Comon, you're mudding the debate That's not what we were talking about at all. 0 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
If people could get fit without counting calories, they'd probably do that too. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using calorie counting as a tool for weight loss or that the people who choose it are only comfortable with what they know and don't want to expand.
Food scales, calorie databases, . . . these things are just tools. I don't think one can make assumptions about broader personality traits based on someone choosing to use certain tools for weight loss over others.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I never said anything wrong with counting. In fact it's the right way if that's all you know and are getting results. Actually there's no right or wrong. It's just effectiveness and the cost of it. Many people still use shovels to move dirt. Then, there are those who use tractors.
To me counting is just a rudimentary approach to controlling weight.
You're still assuming it is "all I know." I've tried not weighing, it didn't work well for me. I'm not choosing this out of not knowing what is out there. I'm choosing it because I know what options are available and this is what works best for me. Why is that so hard to understand?
In my book, that means you don't know not weighing.
But enough debating like this. If you don't understand my logic above, I doubt any more debating would help.
So your premise is anyone who prefers using a certain tool to not using a certain tool is just wrong (AKA, doesn't "know" what you know). That can't be proven or disproven and there isn't really a way for anyone to engage with that.
What you've posted above isn't "logic." It's just your opinion on what people who choose to use a scale don't know, based on your assumption of what is going on in our minds.
Look at the logic of your statement "I've tried not weighing, it didn't work well for me. "
That's like, a travel guide saying I know the city, and then he gets in detours, delays, etc. but eventually gets you to your destination whereas other guides get their tourists to their destination expeditely.
That's like, a new hire saying I know how to use the computer to produce a company letter, and she takes days to produce an average document, whereas people are known to be able to produce a great letter in an hour.
But when I point out to the example travel guide and the new hire that they do not really know what they are doing, they fight back and say that's not logic; it's just my opinion. LOL.
I just want to point out that this is actually the opposite of using a food scale.
The food scale user goes to the city has a map and exact train times. The non weigher is the one who says the train comes about every ten minutes and that the destination is approximately five miles away.
Comon, you're mudding the debate That's not what we were talking about at all.
That's exactly what we're talking about. Is it okay to use tools (scales, calorie databases, etc) to lose weight/maintain weight or does that reveal that one doesn't know what one is doing?
You're arguing that using tools to ensure accuracy reveals not just negative personality traits (fear of change), but ignorance.16 -
jane, I liken a travel guide's inability/inefficiency to only that logic statement of yours where you said you know the "not weighing" approach but it didn't work so well. Just that logic of yours.
It gets confusing when someone else starts thinking map, scale, negative emotion, etc.
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As a neutral party who has success with logging, weighing, eyeballing, whatever... you have used condescending words the entire argument... You can pretend you didn't mean it that way, but we all know that's a lie.25
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I haven't chimed in, but I agree with Hornsby and the others. You should probably quit before you dig your hole any deeper.10
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endlessfall16 wrote: »jane, I liken a travel guide's inability/inefficiency to only that logic statement of yours where you said you know the "not weighing" approach but it didn't work so well. Just that logic of yours.
It gets confusing when someone else starts thinking map, scale, negative emotion, etc.
I agree--you come off like a "condescending.......". When they use YOUR own examples back at you it's confusing? Great that you're so superior, but we are on a calorie counting website first and formost, so I never get what noncounters don't understand about counting. Why asking if we're going to do this for the rest of our lives? It's not your business. I live in Italy and everyone weighs food anyway. It's precise and I just don't even think of it. I don't think of myself as a failure-- just practical. This way I keep track of my macros, which interests me. You do you, and enough of the really odd analogies. Shovel vs tractor--shmmth.4 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »jane, I liken a travel guide's inability/inefficiency to only that logic statement of yours where you said you know the "not weighing" approach but it didn't work so well. Just that logic of yours.
It gets confusing when someone else starts thinking map, scale, negative emotion, etc.
I said I have tried not weighing and I prefer more accurate tools. More accuracy works for me. This doesn't mean I know less than you do or have the personality flaws that you attribute to those who choose to weigh their food.
People are thinking "map" because you compared people who weigh food to tour guides who don't know how to get from one place to another.
But what's the difference between a scale and a map, a scale and a GPS system, a scale and a word processing program, or even a scale and a database with calorie counts?
They're all tools than can be used to meet specific goals. Some people choose different tools. This doesn't tell us anything meaningful about their personality or that they don't know what they're doing.
Sometimes the people who choose specialized tools know *more* than the people who don't. We'd never say a heart surgeon who chose, say, the tools of laproscopic surgery knew *less* than someone who used a regular scalpel, right?8 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »Eyeballing is far less burdensome for me, but that's because I'm fairly relaxed about my weight loss. I shoot for a pound and a half per week...a pound makes me happy, 2 pounds makes me very happy. I don't have a particular goal weight, so I really don't understand the people who fight tooth and nail for the last 6 pounds.
I say, do whatever works for you...maybe though, someone should start a group for people who don't weigh food. It's kinda lonely out here. I thought it was only me.
I don't think it has much to do with how relaxed someone is. One reason I started weighing is because I knew I was undereating (this is back when I was still very heavy and losing easily without weighing). I'm so relaxed now that I don't even log. ;-) But estimating and logging based on cups or something just feels much more burdensome to me -- I have to think about the size and guess. That's fine (mostly, like I said I still enjoy weighing some things) when I'm not logging, but when I have to put a number in I prefer to just know the real number and I have all the good entries with the 100 gram options easily findable in my foods and so on.
I don't like trying to estimate calories from exercise either, so went to TDEE method once my exercise was pretty consistent, so I think it's just different personality types.0 -
I think eyeballing brought me to to MFP to begin with!
This.
When I weigh my food, I lose weight. When I don't weigh my food, I don't lose weight. Simple.
Calorie information on packages can be off by 20%, and if one has a small deficit, that can be a fine line between losing and not losing.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »Eyeballing is far less burdensome for me, but that's because I'm fairly relaxed about my weight loss. I shoot for a pound and a half per week...a pound makes me happy, 2 pounds makes me very happy. I don't have a particular goal weight, so I really don't understand the people who fight tooth and nail for the last 6 pounds.
I say, do whatever works for you...maybe though, someone should start a group for people who don't weigh food. It's kinda lonely out here. I thought it was only me.
I don't think it has much to do with how relaxed someone is. One reason I started weighing is because I knew I was undereating (this is back when I was still very heavy and losing easily without weighing). I'm so relaxed now that I don't even log. ;-) But estimating and logging based on cups or something just feels much more burdensome to me -- I have to think about the size and guess. That's fine (mostly, like I said I still enjoy weighing some things) when I'm not logging, but when I have to put a number in I prefer to just know the real number and I have all the good entries with the 100 gram options easily findable in my foods and so on.
I don't like trying to estimate calories from exercise either, so went to TDEE method once my exercise was pretty consistent, so I think it's just different personality types.
Clarifying here - relaxed in attitude, or relaxed about the timeline of weight loss? Timeline example: if I don't weigh, I'm going to lose slower than if I do weigh, so to me being "relaxed" about it means I accept losing 5 lbs in 3 months instead of in 2 months.
Attitude: I don't feel anal-retentive when using the scale, just more goal-oriented. I don't feel carefree when not using the scale, I just don't feel like adding the extra step. (Weighing things takes a while for me. Most people say it's fast and easy for them... Not so much for me. I do actually think cups are easier, probably because of how I learned to prep when I started cooking. Old habits die hard.) I don't feel more or less "relaxed" whether I weigh or not, but maybe some people do.1 -
jane, I'm not going to refute every off track analogy you brought up. The more we discuss, the more chances for jerks and detractors to chime in with irrelevant stuffs, name calling, etc. It's sad that we can't discuss objectively. I stand by my logic that when you said you have tried the not weighing approach and it didn't work so well, that means you don't know it, specially you don't know what the millions that do not weigh and succeed know. I think one poster (I assume in the counter camp) equates that (not weighing and succeeding) to having a magic wand.0
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endlessfall16 wrote: »jane, I'm not going to refute every off track analogy you brought up. The more we discuss, the more chances for jerks and detractors to chime in with irrelevant stuffs, name calling, etc. It's sad that we can't discuss objectively. I stand by my logic that when you said you have tried the not weighing approach and it didn't work so well, that means you don't know it, specially you don't know what the millions that do not weigh and succeed know. I think one poster (I assume in the counter camp) equates that (not weighing and succeeding) to having a magic wand.
I stand by my statement that it is flawed logic to assume that because someone prefers one tool to another that means they don't know how to use the tool they choose not to use. Further, it is flawed logic to assume you know something about someone's personality flaws based on the tools they choose to use to lose weight or maintain weight loss.
The analogies of the tour guide and the office worker were brought up by you. If you find them flawed, perhaps reconsider how you choose analogies in future discussions.13 -
I had to buy some top soil (dirt) for my house and the employees at the garden store used both shovels and and tractors to move the dirt. What I found amusing was that the smaller orders weighed out in KG's and there larger orders in yards.
End game: whether you use a shovel or a tractor, if you want to know exactly how much dirt you moved you either need weigh it or measure it.
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Another thing to consider...
When I started out it was relatively easy to drop from 258 to 195 not weighing or measuring very often, and even relatively easy to drop from 195 to 175 doing the same. At that time, my goal was to drop some pounds. I had no ambitions trying to look muscular or get ripped. I had been overweight so long that just shedding the weight was all I wanted. So I did just that, I dropped from 258 to 175 in matter of 8 months while loosely weighing. And by loosely like once a week, maybe twice. I didn't focus on macros or anything, just tried to hit my calories. It included a lot of restaurant and fast food as well as a lot of prepackaged stuff. I believe a lot of people are okay with that for the rest of their lives and that's their goal which is great... Eat within your energy balance, do a bit of cardio, do a bit of strength training... Maintain the average build.
But my goals changed when I got there. I didn't like being 175 and 20% body fat. So...I changed up my routine and started cooking a lot more for myself, and aimed to get more protein and healthy fats. Still didn't weigh my food all that much, but a little more often. I incorporated weight lifting into my exercise. After about a year of that I had great success and dropped to maybe 13% but I still wanted more. After a stall and remaining pretty much stagnant, I HAD to become more diligent with my intake. I started cooking for myself probably 90% of the time with most of that being from whole foods. I aimed for specific macros so weighing was a must. So I carried on doing that watched my BF drop to 7%. Now I am maintaining/recomping and just trying to eat around maintenance and weigh maybe 1/2 of my meals. I am still seeing fat loss so I am carrying on till I stall again, then I will weigh and measure. Now, I know people can get to 7% or whatever without a scale, but to some of us this is more than just "losing weight". It has become a passion or hobby if you will. I mean, it's our body, I see nothing wrong with building a hobby around your goals for your body.13 -
Is it possible to lose weight without using a food scale? Yes, for many people; I was one of those people who lost successfully when I was younger but I never managed to keep it off.
However, this time around I am using a food scale. I want to teach myself proper portion sizes. I want to know that I am not losing too quickly and losing too much muscle. I don't want to go too low on my calories that I give up without ever reaching my goal. I don't want to have to cut out treats or food groups to lose weight.
I think that people have the idea that weighing food out will be tedious and labor intensive, so not sustainable long term. That may be the case; I may not weigh every morsel of food for the rest of my life, but I think that I will learn more about what a real portion is by weighing out rather than eyeballing it and hoping that I am accurate. Plenty of people are on here not losing weight and eyeballing their portions. Others are eyeballing and losing weight but left feeling hungry and deprived. How is this more sustainable?
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It's so strange to me the way people project their personalities onto others, and decide that the way someone else does things doesn't make sense just because it doesn't make sense to them. There are some things in life that are objective. The laws of physics, for example. But preferences about what is "easy" and what is "hard" and what a person can sustain for the rest of their lives, those are subjective, and it's ridiculous to try to impose your preferences on others.
I have suffered from anxiety and depression for most of my life. For me, having a fairly set daily routine helps tremendously. Getting up at the same time, eating the same foods, going through the same chores, even in the same order. I build in time for work, and time for pleasure, and I do have some variance in what I do (like, I have a set time for, "doing something fun with the kids" or relaxing with whatever hobby sounds good to me that day), and I take breaks or change things up now and then, but if I miss too many days in a row (whether for good, like a holiday, or for bad, like an illness), I start to fall into a funk. To me, a routine is comforting and stabilizing and good.
To my husband, it would be torture. He doesn't like schedules, budgets, lists, etc. like I do. Where I find them freeing, he finds them constraining and limiting. And for a long time, if I had a bad time and started to struggle, and I was trying to push myself back to my routine, he'd only see it from his perspective. He'd think, "She's making herself miserable trying to keep up with all of those stupid things she thinks she has to do!" And so he'd actually try to stop me! But I'm not him. Routines don't make me feel trapped. Laying around "relaxing" and not knowing what to do with my time makes me feel trapped. Eventually he came to understand that my way isn't wrong, just different. And I've learned to understand him. When I budget our money, I don't budget down to the last penny. I leave "extra" money that he can spend on whatever he wants. I schedule my day so that the time when he's home is "free" time. I even occasionally eat at buffets, and pretend like I don't completely hate them. He cooks (which is mostly an art), and I bake (which is mostly science).
It is possible to recognize that someone else does things differently, and that their way is ok, rather than trying to "lighten them up," or "calm them down."14 -
For the record, the idea of weighing and tracking my food for the rest of my life used to bother me, until I realized that I do exactly that with my money. I carefully track all of the money that goes into, and out of, my bank account. I also carefully track the gas that I put into my car, and how long since an oil change, and when the brake pads were replaced, etc. I track the books I read, and the books I read to my kids, and my comic books (both which ones I have read, and which ones I have purchased). When I grocery shop, I walk through the store with a list in one hand and a calculator in the other, and I track exactly how much I'm spending. And, as I mentioned above, I track my time. None of these things bother me, and I have no plan to one day stop tracking them. On the contrary, I want to track and control MORE of my life! And I realized that the only thing I don't like about tracking food is that sometimes (like at a buffet, or a non-chain restaurant), the information I need is hard to come by. IOW, I don't dislike tracking. I dislike not tracking. I still haven't figured out a good solution to that, but I'm open to suggestions. For now I use my husband as my estimator. He can look at a plate of food and guess the calories with uncanny accuracy. When I try to do that myself (and I've had about 4 years on MFP to try to learn), I inevitably end up gaining weight. I'm not interested in bashing my head against that brick wall anymore when I don't have to.11
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michelleepotter wrote: »For the record, the idea of weighing and tracking my food for the rest of my life used to bother me, until I realized that I do exactly that with my money. I carefully track all of the money that goes into, and out of, my bank account. I also carefully track the gas that I put into my car, and how long since an oil change, and when the brake pads were replaced, etc. I track the books I read, and the books I read to my kids, and my comic books (both which ones I have read, and which ones I have purchased). When I grocery shop, I walk through the store with a list in one hand and a calculator in the other, and I track exactly how much I'm spending. And, as I mentioned above, I track my time. None of these things bother me, and I have no plan to one day stop tracking them. On the contrary, I want to track and control MORE of my life! And I realized that the only thing I don't like about tracking food is that sometimes (like at a buffet, or a non-chain restaurant), the information I need is hard to come by. IOW, I don't dislike tracking. I dislike not tracking. I still haven't figured out a good solution to that, but I'm open to suggestions. For now I use my husband as my estimator. He can look at a plate of food and guess the calories with uncanny accuracy. When I try to do that myself (and I've had about 4 years on MFP to try to learn), I inevitably end up gaining weight. I'm not interested in bashing my head against that brick wall anymore when I don't have to.
that's brilliant, i read those 2 posts and was nodding along as I do most of those things. It's usually a masculine trait, do you also keep top 10 lists, movies, music etc?1
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