Disadvantages of Keto diet

dykask wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

I have to agree that muscle gain is possible for people in ketosis. My concerns would be during the fat adaption process when there isn't enough glucose for the brain and the ketones are still too low. The body is going to feed the brain and muscle tissue is at risk. That would be highly variable as people have different responses.

However once the body is operating with the ketones there are probably even some advantages for endurance sports. High end power/speed is probably in the toilet but its a tradeoff. There are lot of body builders blogging and youtubing about using ketosis diets to push the fat burning while building muscle. However, I don't have any first hand experience with working out while in ketosis.

Building muscle mass is hard in my experience and somewhat painful. It takes increasing levels of resistance to break down the old muscle fibers and for me at least the soreness can be very noticeable for days. It is much easier to do a workout that doesn't push muscles past the breaking point. I think that often turns into the default state when people are tried and have lower energy. When people are eating at a calorie deficit, lower energy is more normal and is often very noticeable during a hard workout.

dykask wrote: »

I've seen various studies that show it can happen even quicker for some and for others can take much, much longer. Still even 5 days is a long time, I would be very hard pressed not to workout for 5 days. I sure it is no big deal to a lot of people.

dykask wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

I have to agree that muscle gain is possible for people in ketosis. My concerns would be during the fat adaption process when there isn't enough glucose for the brain and the ketones are still too low. The body is going to feed the brain and muscle tissue is at risk. That would be highly variable as people have different responses.

However once the body is operating with the ketones there are probably even some advantages for endurance sports. High end power/speed is probably in the toilet but its a tradeoff. There are lot of body builders blogging and youtubing about using ketosis diets to push the fat burning while building muscle. However, I don't have any first hand experience with working out while in ketosis.

Building muscle mass is hard in my experience and somewhat painful. It takes increasing levels of resistance to break down the old muscle fibers and for me at least the soreness can be very noticeable for days. It is much easier to do a workout that doesn't push muscles past the breaking point. I think that often turns into the default state when people are tried and have lower energy. When people are eating at a calorie deficit, lower energy is more normal and is often very noticeable during a hard workout.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

But still not addressing the studies on actual signal pathways responsible for muscle hypertrophy. Again these are studies that are peer reviewed and not based on just logic and anecdotes.
We have no info on Inuits, etc. on actual muscle gaining on keto diets.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

But still not addressing the studies on actual signal pathways responsible for muscle hypertrophy. Again these are studies that are peer reviewed and not based on just logic and anecdotes.
We have no info on Inuits, etc. on actual muscle gaining on keto diets.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I've got nothing. There probably will be nothing for many years.

But logically, do you honestly believe people can not gain muscle from a protein and fat diet? That it is not physically possible?

Or are we arguing the same thing? A higher carb diet may be better for bulking and muscle gains but that bulking and muscle gains can still be achieved on a ketogenic diet? Because people are doing it.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

But still not addressing the studies on actual signal pathways responsible for muscle hypertrophy. Again these are studies that are peer reviewed and not based on just logic and anecdotes.
We have no info on Inuits, etc. on actual muscle gaining on keto diets.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I've got nothing. There probably will be nothing for many years.

But logically, do you honestly believe people can not gain muscle from a protein and fat diet? That it is not physically possible?

Or are we arguing the same thing? A higher carb diet may be better for bulking and muscle gains but that bulking and muscle gains can still be achieved on a ketogenic diet? Because people are doing it.

Yes I do not believe people are gaining muscle on ketogenic diets due to the the studies that show that hormones that are responsible for protein synthesis (a must in muscle building) are DRASTICALLY affected to the point that there's a significant drop off. If the ANABOLIC hormones that promote growth are reduced to a point where it's not effective, why would one gain muscle?

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nvmomketo wrote: »

But who said those anabolic hormones are reduced to a level where they are not effective? IGF-1 may go down somewhat but the brain's receptors of IGF-1 increases so are the benefits actually lost?

Insulin levels between a diet with adequate carbs (moderate) and LCHF are not actually that different. It's just the source of glucose that is (diet or liver).

From http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340 again:

"Plasma glucose and serum insulin were not significantly different between groups at rest and during exercise but increased during the last hour of recovery in the HC athletes, likely due to the greater amount of carbohydrate in the shake (Fig. 5A and . There was no significant difference between groups in insulin resistance as determined by HOMA. Serum lactate responses were variable, but were significantly higher in LC athletes during the last hour of exercise (Fig. 5C)."

A higher carb diet, or right after a carby meal, there will be more insulin.

IDK. I guess each person must decide what risks to take. More insulin and IGF-1 for greater muscle gains but it does come with the risk of what higher levels of those hormones may lead to. For people already at risk for those health problems (IR or cancer - often the overweight people) maximizng muscle gains may with higher anabolic hormones may not be their best choice.

But then you think they can't gain muscle if they don't take that risk...

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

But still not addressing the studies on actual signal pathways responsible for muscle hypertrophy. Again these are studies that are peer reviewed and not based on just logic and anecdotes.
We have no info on Inuits, etc. on actual muscle gaining on keto diets.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I've got nothing. There probably will be nothing for many years.

But logically, do you honestly believe people can not gain muscle from a protein and fat diet? That it is not physically possible?

Or are we arguing the same thing? A higher carb diet may be better for bulking and muscle gains but that bulking and muscle gains can still be achieved on a ketogenic diet? Because people are doing it.

Yes I do not believe people are gaining muscle on ketogenic diets due to the the studies that show that hormones that are responsible for protein synthesis (a must in muscle building) are DRASTICALLY affected to the point that there's a significant drop off. If the ANABOLIC hormones that promote growth are reduced to a point where it's not effective, why would one gain muscle?

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Different pathways? I honestly don't know if the mechanisms are understood yet or not but people are doing it. Have you researched this at all? There's a lengthy list of references at the end of this article that might have the answers you're looking for. Or not, but it's a place to start your research.

psulemon wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.

It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.

I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

TrailNurse wrote: »

I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.

No you're not.

Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth

Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.

KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.

HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.

In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.

By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.


References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No you're not? Really?

I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.

Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/

I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.

Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.

Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.

I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.

I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).

Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.

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The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.

I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.

I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners

"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"

A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.

But still not addressing the studies on actual signal pathways responsible for muscle hypertrophy. Again these are studies that are peer reviewed and not based on just logic and anecdotes.
We have no info on Inuits, etc. on actual muscle gaining on keto diets.

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I've got nothing. There probably will be nothing for many years.

But logically, do you honestly believe people can not gain muscle from a protein and fat diet? That it is not physically possible?

Or are we arguing the same thing? A higher carb diet may be better for bulking and muscle gains but that bulking and muscle gains can still be achieved on a ketogenic diet? Because people are doing it.

Yes I do not believe people are gaining muscle on ketogenic diets due to the the studies that show that hormones that are responsible for protein synthesis (a must in muscle building) are DRASTICALLY affected to the point that there's a significant drop off. If the ANABOLIC hormones that promote growth are reduced to a point where it's not effective, why would one gain muscle?

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In a standard keto diet i would agree. But there are variables that cycle and time nutrients to stimulate MPS. It can be done. I am not sure it will occur during a cut like you can with a higher carb diet but muscle gains can occur with keto when calories exceed tdee. It just may not be as optimal.

But the variance would be changing from a standard keto diet to some sort of hybrid. At that point, it's no longer keto.

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CKD is probably more getting away from keto. But a TKD is a standard 50g or less keto diet. CKD has refeeds of carbs which can bump you out of ketosis.

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

But who said those anabolic hormones are reduced to a level where they are not effective? IGF-1 may go down somewhat but the brain's receptors of IGF-1 increases so are the benefits actually lost?

Insulin levels between a diet with adequate carbs (moderate) and LCHF are not actually that different. It's just the source of glucose that is (diet or liver).

From http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340 again:

"Plasma glucose and serum insulin were not significantly different between groups at rest and during exercise but increased during the last hour of recovery in the HC athletes, likely due to the greater amount of carbohydrate in the shake (Fig. 5A and . There was no significant difference between groups in insulin resistance as determined by HOMA. Serum lactate responses were variable, but were significantly higher in LC athletes during the last hour of exercise (Fig. 5C)."

A higher carb diet, or right after a carby meal, there will be more insulin.

IDK. I guess each person must decide what risks to take. More insulin and IGF-1 for greater muscle gains but it does come with the risk of what higher levels of those hormones may lead to. For people already at risk for those health problems (IR or cancer - often the overweight people) maximizng muscle gains may with higher anabolic hormones may not be their best choice.

But then you think they can't gain muscle if they don't take that risk...

Link me a study that shows that testosterone ISN'T reduced on a ketogenic diet. I've haven't seen one that doesn't show this happen. Lower testosterone ends up in catabolism, not anabolism.

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Link me a study that shows testosterone is reduced in a negative way.

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

But who said those anabolic hormones are reduced to a level where they are not effective? IGF-1 may go down somewhat but the brain's receptors of IGF-1 increases so are the benefits actually lost?

Insulin levels between a diet with adequate carbs (moderate) and LCHF are not actually that different. It's just the source of glucose that is (diet or liver).

From http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340 again:

"Plasma glucose and serum insulin were not significantly different between groups at rest and during exercise but increased during the last hour of recovery in the HC athletes, likely due to the greater amount of carbohydrate in the shake (Fig. 5A and . There was no significant difference between groups in insulin resistance as determined by HOMA. Serum lactate responses were variable, but were significantly higher in LC athletes during the last hour of exercise (Fig. 5C)."

A higher carb diet, or right after a carby meal, there will be more insulin.

IDK. I guess each person must decide what risks to take. More insulin and IGF-1 for greater muscle gains but it does come with the risk of what higher levels of those hormones may lead to. For people already at risk for those health problems (IR or cancer - often the overweight people) maximizng muscle gains may with higher anabolic hormones may not be their best choice.

But then you think they can't gain muscle if they don't take that risk...

Link me a study that shows that testosterone ISN'T reduced on a ketogenic diet. I've haven't seen one that doesn't show this happen. Lower testosterone ends up in catabolism, not anabolism.

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Link me a study that shows testosterone is reduced in a negative way.

In this study, the researchers divided their subjects into 2 groups. The other group ate a high-carb low-protein diet, whereas the other group ate a high-protein low-carb diet. Fat intake and calories were identical. Ten days into the study, the results showed that the high-carb group had significantly higher free testosterone levels (+36%), lower SHBG levels, and lower cortisol levels when compared to the high-protein low-carb group.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976
In this study, the researchers found out that in exercising men, the stress hormone cortisol increases rapidly when they’re put on low-carb diets. Needless to say that this is pretty bad thing for testosterone production.http://www.nature.com/icb/journal/v78/n5/full/icb200076a.html
Gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), which is the hormone that basically starts the whole cascade of events that eventually leads to testosterone synthesis, adjusts its pulsation rate according to the glucose levels of the body. When there’s high amount of glucose present, the hypothalamus inside our brains releases more GnRH, and thus your body synthesizes more testosterone. And when there’s low amounts of glucose present in the body, the brain releases less GnRH, which slows down testosterone synthesis (study).http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21855365
Gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), which is the hormone that basically starts the whole cascade of events that eventually leads to testosterone synthesis, adjusts its pulsation rate according to the glucose levels of the body. When there’s high amount of glucose present, the hypothalamus inside our brains releases more GnRH, and thus your body synthesizes more testosterone. And when there’s low amounts of glucose present in the body, the brain releases less GnRH, which slows down testosterone synthesis (study).http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091182
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8495690

Those are interesting but not definitive when it comes to a low carb high fat ketogenic diet.

Some the links are dealing with high protein or high carb diets. Not LCHF. It may be relevant but it may not.

Other links had high levels of carbs still (such as 60% carbs as a control an 30% carbs considered to be low carb). At that level there will be no noticeable ketosis except while fasting during sleep. Their test subjects would still be relying on glucose for all fuel. Dietary glucose was reduced but that might just stress a person's body if there is no other fuel, I imagine.

They were also very short 3 day tests. Not much time to adapt, so it was mainly looking at the time of adjustment. It takes a few days to adjust to a ketogenic diet and the use of alternate energy to help fuel the brain... and that won't happen on a moderate carb diet anyways.

I went looking into alternate fuels to drive those pathways and this got into it a bit.

Hypothalamic glucose sensing: making ends meet

Nutrients Other than Glucose

Hypothalamic glucose sensing neurons also respond to other nutrient-related signals in addition to glucose. Within the VMH, there is overlap between GE and GI neurons and neurons whose activity is altered by free fatty acids and ketones (Wang et al., 2005; Le Foll et al., 2013, 2014). Neuronal fatty acid sensing is consistent with data showing that central fatty acid infusion modulates glucose-induced insulin secretion and peripheral insulin sensitivity (Cruciani-Guglielmacci et al., 2004; Migrenne et al., 2006; Marsollier et al., 2009; Le Foll et al., 2013). In contrast to glucose and fatty acids, direct evidence of amino acid sensing neurons has been elusive. Administration of the branched chain amino acid L-leucine, but not valine, into the third ventricle decreases food intake; an effect which appears to be mediated by the hypothalamic mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) (Cota et al., 2006). The mTOR inhibitor rapamycin restores NO production by VMH GI neurons during hyperglycemia suggesting potential overlap in glucose and amino acid sensing pathways in these neurons (Canabal et al., 2007a). Moreover, Blouet et al. demonstrated that direct application of leucine increased the action potential frequency of POMC neurons (Blouet et al., 2009). Taken together these data support the hypothesis that hypothalamic glucose sensing neurons integrate multiple nutrient signals; however this has yet to be definitely shown for amino acids.

It goes on to discus alternate fuel sources:

"...When liver glycogen is depleted, muscle catabolism is initially necessary to provide amino acids as substrates for gluconeogenesis. Muscle catabolism is clearly detrimental in the long term and after several days of starvation, increased conversion of fatty acids to ketones in the liver provides fuel to the brain and spares lean body mass (Straub et al., 2010). It seems likely that glucose sensing neurons, particularly GI neurons, are important for informing the brain of the potential magnitude of a threat to the brain energy supply during starvation and aiding in energy mobilization.

In support of this, in general the hormonal changes which occur during fasting (e.g., reduced leptin and increased ghrelin) activate GI neurons and/or enhance their activation by decreased glucose (Cai et al., 1999; López et al., 2000; Diano et al., 2003; Kohno et al., 2003, 2008; Yamanaka et al., 2003; Murphy et al., 2009b; Sheng et al., 2014)...."

I looks like some of these pathways could be ketone driven but it hasn't been looked into too deeply. Regardless, the finctions of the brain that do need glucose would get that from gluconeogenesis. The liver does not just make the bare minimum. It pumps out glucose as needed, and can even pump out some excess amounts.

To me, it seems you are arguing the need to have (eat) excess glucose in order to gain muscle as compared to adequate glucose (possibly due to gluconeogenesis or a low to modeate carb diet). People in ketosis still have glucose. They still have insulin, GH, IGF-1, and testosterone. Perhaps not as much as a carb loading person. Not an excessive amount. Is excess needed? I'd say no. Might it be helpful? Sure.

I know of a few low carbers who lift heavy. They are strong and muscley. I realize I won't be able to convince you that muscle gains can occur on a fat and protein diet, just like you won't be able to convince me that muscle gains can't occur. To me it feels like I am being told dogs don't exist while I sit next to my dog. Perhaps you feel the same way since you work at helping people grow muscles in as efficient manner as possible. A ketogenic diet may not be it (although I would hope you would consider LCHF for those you help with insulin resistance). Anyways, I do appreciate you looking at it. It's been an interesting discussion.