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Hot topics! Sugar in fruit
Replies
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Not everyone who has a compromised system is going to be affected in the same way. There are other things I would like to add about your case, but would have to be discussed via PM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
How come I don't have any autoimmune diseases? I ate (and still eat) a lot of added sugar as a kid, basically lived off Pepsi products and candy bars. I'd like to see where you're getting (or basing) your information because it sounds more and more like you're pulling it out of thin air to bolster your argument.
I confess I do have an allergies to penicillin and nickel, but those are genetic rather than due to consuming too much sugar (in any form).
Ok so now you are saying there are multiple factors that may influence the immune system. How can you be so sure sugar is one of the causes of them, or the cause of them, in people who have autoimmune disease? And you are saying that people may have different outcomes...
Wow, so lots of things cause it and people react differently. That's some conclusive evidence toward the perils of sugar consumption....0 -
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
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No, I'm not saying that I'm certain about that. In any given individual, sugar consumption may not have been a factor. But in other cases it could have been.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Not everyone who has a compromised system is going to be affected in the same way. There are other things I would like to add about your case, but would have to be discussed via PM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
How come I don't have any autoimmune diseases? I ate (and still eat) a lot of added sugar as a kid, basically lived off Pepsi products and candy bars. I'd like to see where you're getting (or basing) your information because it sounds more and more like you're pulling it out of thin air to bolster your argument.
I confess I do have an allergies to penicillin and nickel, but those are genetic rather than due to consuming too much sugar (in any form).
Ok so now you are saying there are multiple factors that may influence the immune system. How can you be so sure sugar is one of the causes of them, or the cause of them, in people who have autoimmune disease? And you are saying that people may have different outcomes...
Wow, so lots of things cause it and people react differently. That's some conclusive evidence toward the perils of sugar consumption....
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WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We agree that a kid who is more active can generally eat more sugar than one who is not. But are you trying to say that there's no issue with an active kid downing a lot of sugar just because he/she is burning it off? Because if one is eating a well balanced diet, sugar consumption shouldn't really be that high as it is (unless we're talking about someone with an extremely high activity level).ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...
You and others keep saying that kids are obese because of sugar, that sweetened beverages are causing this, and if they aren't obese, then they probably have hidden health issues that they are unaware of even though many people in this thread have provided their own n=1 scenarios about themselves and their children that just don't support this.
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Harvard Med seems to think sugary drinks are an issue, some highlights:
The Evidence: Soft Drink Consumption Is Rising and Harms Health
Sugary drink portion sizes have risen dramatically over the past 40 years, and children and adults are drinking more soft drinks than ever.
•Before the 1950s, standard soft-drink bottles were 6.5 ounces. In the 1950s, soft-drink makers introduced larger sizes, including the 12-ounce can, which became widely available in 1960. (11) By the early 1990s, 20-ounce plastic bottles became the norm. (12) Today, contour-shaped plastic bottles are available in even larger sizes, such as the 1.25-liter (42-ounce) bottle introduced in 2011. (13)
•In the 1970s, sugary drinks made up about 4% of US daily calorie intake; by 2001, that had risen to about 9%. (14)
•Children and youth in the US averaged 224 calories per day from sugary beverages in 1999 to 2004—nearly 11% of their daily calorie intake. (15) From 1989 to 2008, calories from sugary beverages increased by 60% in children ages 6 to 11, from 130 to 209 calories per day, and the percentage of children consuming them rose from 79% to 91%. (16)
•On any given day, half the people in the U.S. consume sugary drinks; 1 in 4 get at least 200 calories from such drinks; and 5% get at least 567 calories—equivalent to four cans of soda. (17) Sugary drinks (soda, energy, sports drinks) are the top calorie source in teens’ diets (226 calories per day), beating out pizza (213 calories per day). (18)
Sugary drinks increase the risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and gout.
•A 20-year study on 120,000 men and women found that people who increased their sugary drink consumption by one 12-ounce serving per day gained more weight over time—on average, an extra pound every 4 years—than people who did not change their intake. (19) Other studies have found a significant link between sugary drink consumption and weight gain in children. (20) One study found that for each additional 12-ounce soda children consumed each day, the odds of becoming obese increased by 60% during 1½ years of follow-up. (21)
•People who consume sugary drinks regularly—1 to 2 cans a day or more—have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks. (22) Risks are even greater in young adults and Asians.
•A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. (23) A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link. (24)
•A 22-year study of 80,000 women found that those who consumed a can a day of sugary drink had a 75% higher risk of gout than women who rarely had such drinks. (25) Researchers found a similarly-elevated risk in men. (26)
Cutting back on sugary drinks can help people control their weight.
•Studies in children and adults have found that reducing sugary drink consumption can lead to better weight control among those who are initially overweight. (27,28)
Full article
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-fact-sheet/0 -
Not enough zinc, vitamin C, or vitamin D are among the dietary factors that can play a role in that. Similarly, an unbalanced diet, especially one that is comprised of generous amounts of low nutrient dense foods with not much highly nutritious food is another factor.Alluminati wrote: »
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
How come I don't have any autoimmune diseases? I ate (and still eat) a lot of added sugar as a kid, basically lived off Pepsi products and candy bars. I'd like to see where you're getting (or basing) your information because it sounds more and more like you're pulling it out of thin air to bolster your argument.
I confess I do have an allergies to penicillin and nickel, but those are genetic rather than due to consuming too much sugar (in any form).
Those are my two allergies too! People always think I'm weird when I explain the nickel one.
Anyway, I agree that this "sugar is bad for the immune system so must cause autoimmune diseases and allergies" sounds like it's out of thin air. First, the reason those things are more prevalent now is that they are diagnosed more, we are more aware of the possibility. Second, those are more related to the immune system overreacting, so I don't see how sugar allegedly weakening the immune system would matter. (And the fruit thing is risible -- people don't eat way more fruit now.)0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We agree that a kid who is more active can generally eat more sugar than one who is not. But are you trying to say that there's no issue with an active kid downing a lot of sugar just because he/she is burning it off? Because if one is eating a well balanced diet, sugar consumption shouldn't really be that high as it is (unless we're talking about someone with an extremely high activity level).ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...
You and others keep saying that kids are obese because of sugar, that sweetened beverages are causing this, and if they aren't obese, then they probably have hidden health issues that they are unaware of even though many people in this thread have provided their own n=1 scenarios about themselves and their children that just don't support this.
...
Harvard Med seems to think sugary drinks are an issue, some highlights:
The Evidence: Soft Drink Consumption Is Rising and Harms Health
Sugary drink portion sizes have risen dramatically over the past 40 years, and children and adults are drinking more soft drinks than ever.
•Before the 1950s, standard soft-drink bottles were 6.5 ounces. In the 1950s, soft-drink makers introduced larger sizes, including the 12-ounce can, which became widely available in 1960. (11) By the early 1990s, 20-ounce plastic bottles became the norm. (12) Today, contour-shaped plastic bottles are available in even larger sizes, such as the 1.25-liter (42-ounce) bottle introduced in 2011. (13)
•In the 1970s, sugary drinks made up about 4% of US daily calorie intake; by 2001, that had risen to about 9%. (14)
My understanding is that sugary drink consumption and especially soda consumption is current down and declining.•Children and youth in the US averaged 224 calories per day from sugary beverages in 1999 to 2004—nearly 11% of their daily calorie intake. (15) From 1989 to 2008, calories from sugary beverages increased by 60% in children ages 6 to 11, from 130 to 209 calories per day, and the percentage of children consuming them rose from 79% to 91%. (16)
•On any given day, half the people in the U.S. consume sugary drinks; 1 in 4 get at least 200 calories from such drinks; and 5% get at least 567 calories—equivalent to four cans of soda. (17) Sugary drinks (soda, energy, sports drinks) are the top calorie source in teens’ diets (226 calories per day), beating out pizza (213 calories per day). (18)
Sugary drinks increase the risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and gout.
•A 20-year study on 120,000 men and women found that people who increased their sugary drink consumption by one 12-ounce serving per day gained more weight over time—on average, an extra pound every 4 years—than people who did not change their intake. (19) Other studies have found a significant link between sugary drink consumption and weight gain in children. (20) One study found that for each additional 12-ounce soda children consumed each day, the odds of becoming obese increased by 60% during 1½ years of follow-up. (21)
•People who consume sugary drinks regularly—1 to 2 cans a day or more—have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks. (22) Risks are even greater in young adults and Asians.
•A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. (23) A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link. (24)
•A 22-year study of 80,000 women found that those who consumed a can a day of sugary drink had a 75% higher risk of gout than women who rarely had such drinks. (25) Researchers found a similarly-elevated risk in men. (26)
Cutting back on sugary drinks can help people control their weight.
•Studies in children and adults have found that reducing sugary drink consumption can lead to better weight control among those who are initially overweight. (27,28)
Full article
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-fact-sheet/
Looks to me like all that's saying is that drinking lots of soda correlates with being overweight. Not surprising -- I personally think that high cal drinks are a bad idea since they are unlikely to fill people up and it's easy to drink a lot without realizing how many calories are being consumed (especially if you ignore calories as most do). Also, as I have mentioned a number of times, the curve on soda is that most don't drink that much, but those who do tend to drink a ton, so it's not surprising that high consumers would have weight issues on average.
This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
Also, of course, no one has connected eating lots of fruit to weight gain, let alone autoimmune diseases, etc.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We agree that a kid who is more active can generally eat more sugar than one who is not. But are you trying to say that there's no issue with an active kid downing a lot of sugar just because he/she is burning it off? Because if one is eating a well balanced diet, sugar consumption shouldn't really be that high as it is (unless we're talking about someone with an extremely high activity level).ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...
You and others keep saying that kids are obese because of sugar, that sweetened beverages are causing this, and if they aren't obese, then they probably have hidden health issues that they are unaware of even though many people in this thread have provided their own n=1 scenarios about themselves and their children that just don't support this.
...
Harvard Med seems to think sugary drinks are an issue, some highlights:
The Evidence: Soft Drink Consumption Is Rising and Harms Health
Sugary drink portion sizes have risen dramatically over the past 40 years, and children and adults are drinking more soft drinks than ever.
•Before the 1950s, standard soft-drink bottles were 6.5 ounces. In the 1950s, soft-drink makers introduced larger sizes, including the 12-ounce can, which became widely available in 1960. (11) By the early 1990s, 20-ounce plastic bottles became the norm. (12) Today, contour-shaped plastic bottles are available in even larger sizes, such as the 1.25-liter (42-ounce) bottle introduced in 2011. (13)
•In the 1970s, sugary drinks made up about 4% of US daily calorie intake; by 2001, that had risen to about 9%. (14)
My understanding is that sugary drink consumption and especially soda consumption is current down and declining.•Children and youth in the US averaged 224 calories per day from sugary beverages in 1999 to 2004—nearly 11% of their daily calorie intake. (15) From 1989 to 2008, calories from sugary beverages increased by 60% in children ages 6 to 11, from 130 to 209 calories per day, and the percentage of children consuming them rose from 79% to 91%. (16)
•On any given day, half the people in the U.S. consume sugary drinks; 1 in 4 get at least 200 calories from such drinks; and 5% get at least 567 calories—equivalent to four cans of soda. (17) Sugary drinks (soda, energy, sports drinks) are the top calorie source in teens’ diets (226 calories per day), beating out pizza (213 calories per day). (18)
Sugary drinks increase the risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and gout.
•A 20-year study on 120,000 men and women found that people who increased their sugary drink consumption by one 12-ounce serving per day gained more weight over time—on average, an extra pound every 4 years—than people who did not change their intake. (19) Other studies have found a significant link between sugary drink consumption and weight gain in children. (20) One study found that for each additional 12-ounce soda children consumed each day, the odds of becoming obese increased by 60% during 1½ years of follow-up. (21)
•People who consume sugary drinks regularly—1 to 2 cans a day or more—have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks. (22) Risks are even greater in young adults and Asians.
•A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. (23) A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link. (24)
•A 22-year study of 80,000 women found that those who consumed a can a day of sugary drink had a 75% higher risk of gout than women who rarely had such drinks. (25) Researchers found a similarly-elevated risk in men. (26)
Cutting back on sugary drinks can help people control their weight.
•Studies in children and adults have found that reducing sugary drink consumption can lead to better weight control among those who are initially overweight. (27,28)
Full article
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-fact-sheet/
Looks to me like all that's saying is that drinking lots of soda correlates with being overweight. Not surprising -- I personally think that high cal drinks are a bad idea since they are unlikely to fill people up and it's easy to drink a lot without realizing how many calories are being consumed (especially if you ignore calories as most do). Also, as I have mentioned a number of times, the curve on soda is that most don't drink that much, but those who do tend to drink a ton, so it's not surprising that high consumers would have weight issues on average.
This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
Also, of course, no one has connected eating lots of fruit to weight gain, let alone autoimmune diseases, etc.
Given the amount of fruit eaten by the average American weight gain from too much fruit consumption is a non issue0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We agree that a kid who is more active can generally eat more sugar than one who is not. But are you trying to say that there's no issue with an active kid downing a lot of sugar just because he/she is burning it off? Because if one is eating a well balanced diet, sugar consumption shouldn't really be that high as it is (unless we're talking about someone with an extremely high activity level).ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...
You and others keep saying that kids are obese because of sugar, that sweetened beverages are causing this, and if they aren't obese, then they probably have hidden health issues that they are unaware of even though many people in this thread have provided their own n=1 scenarios about themselves and their children that just don't support this.
...
Harvard Med seems to think sugary drinks are an issue, some highlights:
The Evidence: Soft Drink Consumption Is Rising and Harms Health
Sugary drink portion sizes have risen dramatically over the past 40 years, and children and adults are drinking more soft drinks than ever.
•Before the 1950s, standard soft-drink bottles were 6.5 ounces. In the 1950s, soft-drink makers introduced larger sizes, including the 12-ounce can, which became widely available in 1960. (11) By the early 1990s, 20-ounce plastic bottles became the norm. (12) Today, contour-shaped plastic bottles are available in even larger sizes, such as the 1.25-liter (42-ounce) bottle introduced in 2011. (13)
•In the 1970s, sugary drinks made up about 4% of US daily calorie intake; by 2001, that had risen to about 9%. (14)
My understanding is that sugary drink consumption and especially soda consumption is current down and declining.•Children and youth in the US averaged 224 calories per day from sugary beverages in 1999 to 2004—nearly 11% of their daily calorie intake. (15) From 1989 to 2008, calories from sugary beverages increased by 60% in children ages 6 to 11, from 130 to 209 calories per day, and the percentage of children consuming them rose from 79% to 91%. (16)
•On any given day, half the people in the U.S. consume sugary drinks; 1 in 4 get at least 200 calories from such drinks; and 5% get at least 567 calories—equivalent to four cans of soda. (17) Sugary drinks (soda, energy, sports drinks) are the top calorie source in teens’ diets (226 calories per day), beating out pizza (213 calories per day). (18)
Sugary drinks increase the risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and gout.
•A 20-year study on 120,000 men and women found that people who increased their sugary drink consumption by one 12-ounce serving per day gained more weight over time—on average, an extra pound every 4 years—than people who did not change their intake. (19) Other studies have found a significant link between sugary drink consumption and weight gain in children. (20) One study found that for each additional 12-ounce soda children consumed each day, the odds of becoming obese increased by 60% during 1½ years of follow-up. (21)
•People who consume sugary drinks regularly—1 to 2 cans a day or more—have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks. (22) Risks are even greater in young adults and Asians.
•A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. (23) A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link. (24)
•A 22-year study of 80,000 women found that those who consumed a can a day of sugary drink had a 75% higher risk of gout than women who rarely had such drinks. (25) Researchers found a similarly-elevated risk in men. (26)
Cutting back on sugary drinks can help people control their weight.
•Studies in children and adults have found that reducing sugary drink consumption can lead to better weight control among those who are initially overweight. (27,28)
Full article
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-fact-sheet/
Looks to me like all that's saying is that drinking lots of soda correlates with being overweight. Not surprising -- I personally think that high cal drinks are a bad idea since they are unlikely to fill people up and it's easy to drink a lot without realizing how many calories are being consumed (especially if you ignore calories as most do). Also, as I have mentioned a number of times, the curve on soda is that most don't drink that much, but those who do tend to drink a ton, so it's not surprising that high consumers would have weight issues on average.
This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
Also, of course, no one has connected eating lots of fruit to weight gain, let alone autoimmune diseases, etc.
Given the amount of fruit eaten by the average American weight gain from too much fruit consumption is a non issue
So the common thread is being overweight. In the 70's and 80's it was fat, in the 90's it was carbs and now more specifically sugar.
Can we just agree that it is an energy imbalance...?5 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
No, I'm not saying that I'm certain about that. In any given individual, sugar consumption may not have been a factor. But in other cases it could have been.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Not everyone who has a compromised system is going to be affected in the same way. There are other things I would like to add about your case, but would have to be discussed via PM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
How come I don't have any autoimmune diseases? I ate (and still eat) a lot of added sugar as a kid, basically lived off Pepsi products and candy bars. I'd like to see where you're getting (or basing) your information because it sounds more and more like you're pulling it out of thin air to bolster your argument.
I confess I do have an allergies to penicillin and nickel, but those are genetic rather than due to consuming too much sugar (in any form).
Ok so now you are saying there are multiple factors that may influence the immune system. How can you be so sure sugar is one of the causes of them, or the cause of them, in people who have autoimmune disease? And you are saying that people may have different outcomes...
Wow, so lots of things cause it and people react differently. That's some conclusive evidence toward the perils of sugar consumption....
so...maybe?0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We agree that a kid who is more active can generally eat more sugar than one who is not. But are you trying to say that there's no issue with an active kid downing a lot of sugar just because he/she is burning it off? Because if one is eating a well balanced diet, sugar consumption shouldn't really be that high as it is (unless we're talking about someone with an extremely high activity level).ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...
You and others keep saying that kids are obese because of sugar, that sweetened beverages are causing this, and if they aren't obese, then they probably have hidden health issues that they are unaware of even though many people in this thread have provided their own n=1 scenarios about themselves and their children that just don't support this.
...
Harvard Med seems to think sugary drinks are an issue, some highlights:
The Evidence: Soft Drink Consumption Is Rising and Harms Health
Sugary drink portion sizes have risen dramatically over the past 40 years, and children and adults are drinking more soft drinks than ever.
•Before the 1950s, standard soft-drink bottles were 6.5 ounces. In the 1950s, soft-drink makers introduced larger sizes, including the 12-ounce can, which became widely available in 1960. (11) By the early 1990s, 20-ounce plastic bottles became the norm. (12) Today, contour-shaped plastic bottles are available in even larger sizes, such as the 1.25-liter (42-ounce) bottle introduced in 2011. (13)
•In the 1970s, sugary drinks made up about 4% of US daily calorie intake; by 2001, that had risen to about 9%. (14)
•Children and youth in the US averaged 224 calories per day from sugary beverages in 1999 to 2004—nearly 11% of their daily calorie intake. (15) From 1989 to 2008, calories from sugary beverages increased by 60% in children ages 6 to 11, from 130 to 209 calories per day, and the percentage of children consuming them rose from 79% to 91%. (16)
•On any given day, half the people in the U.S. consume sugary drinks; 1 in 4 get at least 200 calories from such drinks; and 5% get at least 567 calories—equivalent to four cans of soda. (17) Sugary drinks (soda, energy, sports drinks) are the top calorie source in teens’ diets (226 calories per day), beating out pizza (213 calories per day). (18)
Sugary drinks increase the risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and gout.
•A 20-year study on 120,000 men and women found that people who increased their sugary drink consumption by one 12-ounce serving per day gained more weight over time—on average, an extra pound every 4 years—than people who did not change their intake. (19) Other studies have found a significant link between sugary drink consumption and weight gain in children. (20) One study found that for each additional 12-ounce soda children consumed each day, the odds of becoming obese increased by 60% during 1½ years of follow-up. (21)
•People who consume sugary drinks regularly—1 to 2 cans a day or more—have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks. (22) Risks are even greater in young adults and Asians.
•A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. (23) A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link. (24)
•A 22-year study of 80,000 women found that those who consumed a can a day of sugary drink had a 75% higher risk of gout than women who rarely had such drinks. (25) Researchers found a similarly-elevated risk in men. (26)
Cutting back on sugary drinks can help people control their weight.
•Studies in children and adults have found that reducing sugary drink consumption can lead to better weight control among those who are initially overweight. (27,28)
Full article
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-fact-sheet/
why is it so groundbreaking that sugar drinks that are calorie dense are going to lead to weight gain....??
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Not enough zinc, vitamin C, or vitamin D are among the dietary factors that can play a role in that. Similarly, an unbalanced diet, especially one that is comprised of generous amounts of low nutrient dense foods with not much highly nutritious food is another factor.Alluminati wrote: »
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Being that the child was diagnosed with allergies at 18 months old, after having kept journals for them since they were about 6 months old, your speculation doesn't make any sense. Maybe stop making things up as you go along and really research allergies and auto immune disease before speaking of them, then maybe you'll be able to make your points a little better.5 -
I think this thread needs to die ....3
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Packerjohn wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We agree that a kid who is more active can generally eat more sugar than one who is not. But are you trying to say that there's no issue with an active kid downing a lot of sugar just because he/she is burning it off? Because if one is eating a well balanced diet, sugar consumption shouldn't really be that high as it is (unless we're talking about someone with an extremely high activity level).ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...
You and others keep saying that kids are obese because of sugar, that sweetened beverages are causing this, and if they aren't obese, then they probably have hidden health issues that they are unaware of even though many people in this thread have provided their own n=1 scenarios about themselves and their children that just don't support this.
...
Harvard Med seems to think sugary drinks are an issue, some highlights:
The Evidence: Soft Drink Consumption Is Rising and Harms Health
Sugary drink portion sizes have risen dramatically over the past 40 years, and children and adults are drinking more soft drinks than ever.
•Before the 1950s, standard soft-drink bottles were 6.5 ounces. In the 1950s, soft-drink makers introduced larger sizes, including the 12-ounce can, which became widely available in 1960. (11) By the early 1990s, 20-ounce plastic bottles became the norm. (12) Today, contour-shaped plastic bottles are available in even larger sizes, such as the 1.25-liter (42-ounce) bottle introduced in 2011. (13)
•In the 1970s, sugary drinks made up about 4% of US daily calorie intake; by 2001, that had risen to about 9%. (14)
My understanding is that sugary drink consumption and especially soda consumption is current down and declining.•Children and youth in the US averaged 224 calories per day from sugary beverages in 1999 to 2004—nearly 11% of their daily calorie intake. (15) From 1989 to 2008, calories from sugary beverages increased by 60% in children ages 6 to 11, from 130 to 209 calories per day, and the percentage of children consuming them rose from 79% to 91%. (16)
•On any given day, half the people in the U.S. consume sugary drinks; 1 in 4 get at least 200 calories from such drinks; and 5% get at least 567 calories—equivalent to four cans of soda. (17) Sugary drinks (soda, energy, sports drinks) are the top calorie source in teens’ diets (226 calories per day), beating out pizza (213 calories per day). (18)
Sugary drinks increase the risk of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and gout.
•A 20-year study on 120,000 men and women found that people who increased their sugary drink consumption by one 12-ounce serving per day gained more weight over time—on average, an extra pound every 4 years—than people who did not change their intake. (19) Other studies have found a significant link between sugary drink consumption and weight gain in children. (20) One study found that for each additional 12-ounce soda children consumed each day, the odds of becoming obese increased by 60% during 1½ years of follow-up. (21)
•People who consume sugary drinks regularly—1 to 2 cans a day or more—have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks. (22) Risks are even greater in young adults and Asians.
•A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. (23) A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link. (24)
•A 22-year study of 80,000 women found that those who consumed a can a day of sugary drink had a 75% higher risk of gout than women who rarely had such drinks. (25) Researchers found a similarly-elevated risk in men. (26)
Cutting back on sugary drinks can help people control their weight.
•Studies in children and adults have found that reducing sugary drink consumption can lead to better weight control among those who are initially overweight. (27,28)
Full article
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-fact-sheet/
Looks to me like all that's saying is that drinking lots of soda correlates with being overweight. Not surprising -- I personally think that high cal drinks are a bad idea since they are unlikely to fill people up and it's easy to drink a lot without realizing how many calories are being consumed (especially if you ignore calories as most do). Also, as I have mentioned a number of times, the curve on soda is that most don't drink that much, but those who do tend to drink a ton, so it's not surprising that high consumers would have weight issues on average.
This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
Also, of course, no one has connected eating lots of fruit to weight gain, let alone autoimmune diseases, etc.
Given the amount of fruit eaten by the average American weight gain from too much fruit consumption is a non issue
Right, that was one of my issues with Jason's claim.0 -
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My claim is that eating a lot of sugar in the context of a diet that is not healthy overall can lead to a multitude of problems. If one is eating a healthful diet then the effect is most likely going to be minimized.lemurcat12 wrote: »This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
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Balance for each of us according to our own needs and limits is what is important as far as too much fruits in our diet. We are individuals and have differences in our bodies. People with too much sugar in their body can cause problems, unless we are burning it off immediately. Myfitnesspal helps one to calculate what you need before you put it into your body. I had fruit for breakfast this morning, four different types. Some of them had more sugars than the others. But I limited my sugars to way under what I need in a day. We should keep our diet balanced for our bodies and not everyone else's bodies. My friend who is a fitness trainer works out all day with his clients. He eat three times the volume of food than I eat and is thinner. I sit at my work most of the day and I have to watch my intake to either loose or maintain weight.
If you are here to loose weight, then cut back on your intake. If you are here to gain weight, add to your intake. Have your blood tested to make sure you are on the right path and meet with your doctor for advice on correctly going about your goals. Exercise daily and eat healthy for your body. If your body is overweight and/or very close to being diabetic, then cut the sugars way back, including fruits.
Yes, I agree. Most Americans didn't get fat from eating fruit, but rather overeating in general without proper exercise. I travel around the world and the first thing I notice when I return home is how fat Americans are compared to the majority of the rest of the world's population.0 -
There are studies that show what a mother eats doing the pregnancy can affect the child's immune system. So what I stated previously still applies.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Not enough zinc, vitamin C, or vitamin D are among the dietary factors that can play a role in that. Similarly, an unbalanced diet, especially one that is comprised of generous amounts of low nutrient dense foods with not much highly nutritious food is another factor.Alluminati wrote: »
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Being that the child was diagnosed with allergies at 18 months old, after having kept journals for them since they were about 6 months old, your speculation doesn't make any sense. Maybe stop making things up as you go along and really research allergies and auto immune disease before speaking of them, then maybe you'll be able to make your points a little better.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
There are studies that show what a mother eats doing the pregnancy can affect the child's immune system. So what I stated previously still applies.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Not enough zinc, vitamin C, or vitamin D are among the dietary factors that can play a role in that. Similarly, an unbalanced diet, especially one that is comprised of generous amounts of low nutrient dense foods with not much highly nutritious food is another factor.Alluminati wrote: »
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Being that the child was diagnosed with allergies at 18 months old, after having kept journals for them since they were about 6 months old, your speculation doesn't make any sense. Maybe stop making things up as you go along and really research allergies and auto immune disease before speaking of them, then maybe you'll be able to make your points a little better.
How does it apply? The parent was born in the era (60's-80's) where you speculated that people were healthier as children, and the parent was healthy at the time of the birth of the child. Let's not forget the excellent care mothers receive from doctors as well as pre-natal vitamins. No, it doesn't apply.
Please press 2 to try again.
eta: sentence structures, sorry2 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
My claim is that eating a lot of sugar in the context of a diet that is not healthy overall can lead to a multitude of problems. If one is eating a healthful diet then the effect is most likely going to be minimized.lemurcat12 wrote: »This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
If one eats an overall healthful diet, they are by default not eating "a lot" of sugar. That said, eating "a lot" of any singular macro nutrient will more then likely lead to an unhealthy diet that is out of balance. So we come back to square 1. Why single out sugar? I bet if we were having this discussion in the 70's and 80's we'd be talking about fat. Same nonsense...2 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
My claim is that eating a lot of sugar in the context of a diet that is not healthy overall can lead to a multitude of problems. If one is eating a healthful diet then the effect is most likely going to be minimized.lemurcat12 wrote: »This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
But you would be wrong!0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
My claim is that eating a lot of sugar in the context of a diet that is not healthy overall can lead to a multitude of problems. If one is eating a healthful diet then the effect is most likely going to be minimized.lemurcat12 wrote: »This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
So you are saying people should, ideally, eat healthfully? I don't think anyone disagrees.
Where this (boring) tangent started was when you jumped in in response to the argument that what has changed is not kids eating less healthfully than in the past*, but that kids are a lot less active than in the past, to assert that kids eat much worse and more sugar (including lots of sugar from fruit, which you called out as a potential problem) and therefore have more autoimmune diseases and allergies, because sugar.
That's what people are disagreeing with.
*For the record, I think activity is the most significant part for childhood obesity, but don't discount the possibility that it is partially diet. There are differences in percentage of children who are obese that tracks various income and race differences, and I think it is possible that in some subcultures eating habits are worse than they used to be for various reasons, and worse than in the country as a whole. I am always amazed at how many people on MFP seem never to have eaten a vegetable and to see it as nearly impossible, as that was assumed -- you would eat your vegetables and they were part of a healthful diet -- when I was growing up. I also think home cooked meals may be less common (not that you can't have good meals that are not home cooked), and there are economic and social reasons for that. I don't think the big difference is sugar in and of itself.1 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
You weren't really agreeing with her, since in her example the person (herself) was not burning off all the sugar, but eating a diet that was too high in calories despite her activity level.0 -
I can see from people I know IRL and see that health as a kid does not automatically equate to good health later in life. I'm not claiming that this was the case in this particular instance, but I do know that certain conditions (like vitamin D insufficiency as a good example) can be missed when doing health checkups. Being healthy doesn't mean that every single blood marker or nutrient level is at an appropriate level.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There are studies that show what a mother eats doing the pregnancy can affect the child's immune system. So what I stated previously still applies.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Not enough zinc, vitamin C, or vitamin D are among the dietary factors that can play a role in that. Similarly, an unbalanced diet, especially one that is comprised of generous amounts of low nutrient dense foods with not much highly nutritious food is another factor.Alluminati wrote: »
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Being that the child was diagnosed with allergies at 18 months old, after having kept journals for them since they were about 6 months old, your speculation doesn't make any sense. Maybe stop making things up as you go along and really research allergies and auto immune disease before speaking of them, then maybe you'll be able to make your points a little better.
How does it apply? The parent was born in the era (60's-80's) where you speculated that people were healthier as children, and the parent was healthy at the time of the birth of the child. No, it doesn't apply.
Please press 2 to try again.
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What is also missing is the notion that once one's nutritional requirements are met, extra calories, regardless of where they come from are a non issue, assuming there is an energy balance. So, a very active kid can in essence eat "a lot" of sugar and still have a healthful diet.1
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lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
You weren't really agreeing with her, since in her example the person (herself) was not burning off all the sugar, but eating a diet that was too high in calories despite her activity level.
Exactly...0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
There are studies that show what a mother eats doing the pregnancy can affect the child's immune system. So what I stated previously still applies.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Not enough zinc, vitamin C, or vitamin D are among the dietary factors that can play a role in that. Similarly, an unbalanced diet, especially one that is comprised of generous amounts of low nutrient dense foods with not much highly nutritious food is another factor.Alluminati wrote: »
Like what, pray tell?ForecasterJason wrote: »
Because there are many other things that impact the function of the immune system aside from sugar. There are a multitude of other dietary factors that may have been involved in your case.Alluminati wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I guess I still wasn't clear enough. Eating excessive amounts of sugar has been shown to negatively impact the immune system. Autoimmune diseases and allergies are related to an immune system not functioning optimally. If one is eating an appropriate amount of sugar, I don't think there's a problem there.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
As I stated on page 16, "Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system, so if one is eating excessive amounts of sugar from fruit then that could become an issue." Of course, that's not to say that sugar in fruit causes those conditions. But if one is eating a lot of sugar and not enough of certain nutrients, then that can have implications for those conditions.WinoGelato wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Autoimmune diseases and allergies (not necessarily just food, but environmental as well) are two.ForecasterJason wrote: »
So am I correct in that, assuming one is active and at a healthy weight and bodyfat percentage, the only reason why there are more and more people getting certain conditions at a young age is because of random genetic mutations. Still doesn't make sense to me…I grew up in the 70's in NY. We ate almost exclusively canned, boxed, and frozen food. Fish sticks, tater tots, boxed flavored rice, canned veggies, frozen waffles, Wonder bread, Hostess cupcakes, Chips Ahoy cookies, hot dogs, pasta, ice cream, OJ from concentrate, ice tea mix. We had soda and chips or popcorn once or twice a week. So I'm guessing a lot of sugar and salt, not much protein, and really the only fresh food we ate was meat and a little fruit. Our diet was pretty typical of the middle class families we knew at least.
However, we spent most of our time running around outside. I was a string bean. Always on the skinny side, until I got to my mid-twenties and got an office job. Having said that, I've never been "overweight" just the high side of healthy. Lost weight in my twenties and thirties by increasing exercise. Lost weight this time by counting calories. I certainly eat a better diet now, but still probably 50% processed/ 50% whole. I eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, pasta, whenever I want, but in portion sizes that fit my calorie goal. Getting my activity level up while controlling my calories in was the key to getting to my current weight.
I have always had low blood pressure, normal blood sugar, rarely catch colds and never the flu, haven't taken a prescription medication since I had my last earache when I was a kid. So my n=1 says I was and am fine eating a moderate amount of sugar. My minor problems were caused by not balancing my calories in with my activity level.
And it's silly to say kids used to be healthier. In the 70's bronchitis and ear infections went around practically every month. There were plenty of "sickly" kids in my school who weren't diagnosed with anything but clearly weren't healthy. There were several children in my elementary and high school classes that we lost to cancer. And as @jgnatca said, if you go back to earlier in the century children suffered from all kinds of health problems we don't even think about anymore.
Nothing I've read in this never-ending thread has convinced me the problem is anything other than obesity. If obese kids (and adults) ate less of everything and moved a lot more, they would lose weight and improve their health markers.
What conditions are children at a healthy weight getting more often?
And what does that have to do with sugar?
I looked back to page 16 and I don't see that you posted any studies related to your claims that autoimmune disorders and allergies are indirectly related to sugar in fruit.
Also curious why fruit causes these issues? I thought you were saying it was only added sugar that was the problem, now you are saying that fruit is really to blame for all of our woes?
Then how do you explain a kid who doesn't like fruit, hates sugary treats, doesn't drink soda, and has some of the Big 8 allergies?
Being that the child was diagnosed with allergies at 18 months old, after having kept journals for them since they were about 6 months old, your speculation doesn't make any sense. Maybe stop making things up as you go along and really research allergies and auto immune disease before speaking of them, then maybe you'll be able to make your points a little better.
I like how you claim "it's been shown " and "there are studies" but never cite anything.2 -
But you stated that you did eat "a lot" of sugar, so according to what you're saying there means you were eating an unhealthy diet. Which is what my claim on sugar, the immune system, allergies, autoimmune diseases, etc. has been about.ForecasterJason wrote: »
My claim is that eating a lot of sugar in the context of a diet that is not healthy overall can lead to a multitude of problems. If one is eating a healthful diet then the effect is most likely going to be minimized.lemurcat12 wrote: »This is not support for Jason's argument, which is that even if one does not gain weight and eats a healthful balanced diet that consuming sugar beyond a certain unidentified level (lots!) is going to be harmful.
(I happen to think the WHO et al. have sensible advise on this, but someone who counts calories and watches overall nutrients and is quite active is going to be able to make an individual decision about the amount of added sugar that is appropriate that might be different, just as many ignore for what they consider good reason the recommendations re sat fat or sodium.)
If one eats an overall healthful diet, they are by default not eating "a lot" of sugar. That said, eating "a lot" of any singular macro nutrient will more then likely lead to an unhealthy diet that is out of balance. So we come back to square 1. Why single out sugar? I bet if we were having this discussion in the 70's and 80's we'd be talking about fat. Same nonsense...
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