Why didn't Keto work for me?
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snickerscharlie wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Bodies are complex; definitely not as simple as the CI/CO people want to believe. An example - I have two big dogs. They get the same food and the same amount of exercise. They both have normal lab test results. One of them tends toward chubby. I feed her the minimum amount of food recommended for a dog of her size, and she's at the top of her acceptable weight range. The other dog is more lean. He gets more food than the other dog does, and he stays in the middle of his acceptable weight range. Why? My vet can't tell me.
Yes, biochemistry is very complex and no diet regime you get from a book or from a forum (including IFFYM, low carb, keto or any others) can encompass all that their is. That's why people spend years of education specializing in such things. If you have a specific issue than the customized recommendations of an RD is the way to go. However, your dogs have no real bearing on this because you can't really control for their actual consumption or exercise, you just make assumption and not to mention that breeds can be very different do to husbantry while people not so much.
I absolutely do account for consumption and exercise. I'm the feeder and dog walker. Slightly chubby dog gets 2 cups of food per day. Lean dog gets 3 cups. They are different breeds, but we humans also differ in exact genetic makeup.
And both dogs move around exactly the same amount during the day? They play the same amount and with the same intensity? They sleep exactly the same? They both have precisely the same lean mass vs fat mass (obviously not)? When you take the dogs for a walk, both behave exactly the same way (react identically to the things they see, smell and hear, keep the same tension on the leash, one doesn't have more extraneous movement, etc)?
The contributors to CO are more complex than you're thinking.
And to add, breeds make a difference too, picture a St Bernard then a Grey Hound.
I'm also curious about whether the dogs sex makes a difference like it does in humans. What I mean is if you take a male and a female human, same height and weight, the guy would be able to eat substantially more than she would in order to maintain their current weight. Could the same apply to dogs to some degree I wonder? <curious>
I have two cats, siblings, same age, male and female. The male is more muscular and active and the female is soft and doughy, lays around all day. They eat roughly the same amount of food I think. They are free feeders.0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Bodies are complex; definitely not as simple as the CI/CO people want to believe. An example - I have two big dogs. They get the same food and the same amount of exercise. They both have normal lab test results. One of them tends toward chubby. I feed her the minimum amount of food recommended for a dog of her size, and she's at the top of her acceptable weight range. The other dog is more lean. He gets more food than the other dog does, and he stays in the middle of his acceptable weight range. Why? My vet can't tell me.
Yes, biochemistry is very complex and no diet regime you get from a book or from a forum (including IFFYM, low carb, keto or any others) can encompass all that their is. That's why people spend years of education specializing in such things. If you have a specific issue than the customized recommendations of an RD is the way to go. However, your dogs have no real bearing on this because you can't really control for their actual consumption or exercise, you just make assumption and not to mention that breeds can be very different do to husbantry while people not so much.
I absolutely do account for consumption and exercise. I'm the feeder and dog walker. Slightly chubby dog gets 2 cups of food per day. Lean dog gets 3 cups. They are different breeds, but we humans also differ in exact genetic makeup.
And both dogs move around exactly the same amount during the day? They play the same amount and with the same intensity? They sleep exactly the same? They both have precisely the same lean mass vs fat mass (obviously not)? When you take the dogs for a walk, both behave exactly the same way (react identically to the things they see, smell and hear, keep the same tension on the leash, one doesn't have more extraneous movement, etc)?
The contributors to CO are more complex than you're thinking.
And to add, breeds make a difference too, picture a St Bernard then a Grey Hound.
I'm also curious about whether the dogs sex makes a difference like it does in humans. What I mean is if you take a male and a female human, same height and weight, the guy would be able to eat substantially more than she would in order to maintain their current weight. Could the same apply to dogs to some degree I wonder? <curious>
Just speculating, but I wouldn't think so. There's not the same degree of difference in lean mass between male and female dogs of the same breed and height/weight.
ETA: However, like in humans, female dogs do tend to be smaller. So, the gender as a whole would consume less to maintain.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Bodies are complex; definitely not as simple as the CI/CO people want to believe. An example - I have two big dogs. They get the same food and the same amount of exercise. They both have normal lab test results. One of them tends toward chubby. I feed her the minimum amount of food recommended for a dog of her size, and she's at the top of her acceptable weight range. The other dog is more lean. He gets more food than the other dog does, and he stays in the middle of his acceptable weight range. Why? My vet can't tell me.
Yes, biochemistry is very complex and no diet regime you get from a book or from a forum (including IFFYM, low carb, keto or any others) can encompass all that their is. That's why people spend years of education specializing in such things. If you have a specific issue than the customized recommendations of an RD is the way to go. However, your dogs have no real bearing on this because you can't really control for their actual consumption or exercise, you just make assumption and not to mention that breeds can be very different do to husbantry while people not so much.
I absolutely do account for consumption and exercise. I'm the feeder and dog walker. Slightly chubby dog gets 2 cups of food per day. Lean dog gets 3 cups. They are different breeds, but we humans also differ in exact genetic makeup.
And both dogs move around exactly the same amount during the day? They play the same amount and with the same intensity? They sleep exactly the same? They both have precisely the same lean mass vs fat mass (obviously not)? When you take the dogs for a walk, both behave exactly the same way (react identically to the things they see, smell and hear, keep the same tension on the leash, one doesn't have more extraneous movement, etc)?
The contributors to CO are more complex than you're thinking.
And to add, breeds make a difference too, picture a St Bernard then a Grey Hound.
I'm also curious about whether the dogs sex makes a difference like it does in humans. What I mean is if you take a male and a female human, same height and weight, the guy would be able to eat substantially more than she would in order to maintain their current weight. Could the same apply to dogs to some degree I wonder? <curious>
I have two cats, siblings, same age, male and female. The male is more muscular and active and the female is soft and doughy, lays around all day. They eat roughly the same amount of food I think. They are free feeders.
Sounds like me and my husband
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sweetbug0130 wrote: »Your calorie goal was enough to put you at a deficit - you were eating more than 1300 calories. At your height and weight the lbs would melt off at 1300 calories. You need to weigh your food and be honest with yourself.
Why does everyone insist I'm lying about things I say? I repeat once again...I WEIGHED AND MEASURED EVERYTHING! Thanks.
The recommendation to up your calorie expenditure by a couple hundred calories a day is good advice. Every little bit helps. Also if you kept the 4 pounds off then at least that wasn't a total waste.
You mentioned the website recommended 1370. Did MFP say to set your daily calories at that for 1 pound a week loss? You could set it for 0.5 pounds a week if you don't want to feel so hungry and stressed.
I do believe stress impacts weight loss. (At least it does in my case.) Exercise can be a good stress reliever also. Hang in there!
No it's not good advice. You never raise your calories when you're not losing weight. Otherwise, there would not be fat people in the world. You only raise your calories to lose at a slower weight if you are already losing weight.
I slowly raised calories at maintenance until I was able to get a much higher maintenance level. Now I can cut calories again and lose once more.0 -
sweetbug0130 wrote: »Your calorie goal was enough to put you at a deficit - you were eating more than 1300 calories. At your height and weight the lbs would melt off at 1300 calories. You need to weigh your food and be honest with yourself.
Why does everyone insist I'm lying about things I say? I repeat once again...I WEIGHED AND MEASURED EVERYTHING! Thanks.
The recommendation to up your calorie expenditure by a couple hundred calories a day is good advice. Every little bit helps. Also if you kept the 4 pounds off then at least that wasn't a total waste.
You mentioned the website recommended 1370. Did MFP say to set your daily calories at that for 1 pound a week loss? You could set it for 0.5 pounds a week if you don't want to feel so hungry and stressed.
I do believe stress impacts weight loss. (At least it does in my case.) Exercise can be a good stress reliever also. Hang in there!
No it's not good advice. You never raise your calories when you're not losing weight. Otherwise, there would not be fat people in the world. You only raise your calories to lose at a slower weight if you are already losing weight.
I slowly raised calories at maintenance until I was able to get a much higher maintenance level. Now I can cut calories again and lose once more.
How much is "much higher"? How did you raise your maintenance level to begin with, because just eating more doesn't do that.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Bodies are complex; definitely not as simple as the CI/CO people want to believe. An example - I have two big dogs. They get the same food and the same amount of exercise. They both have normal lab test results. One of them tends toward chubby. I feed her the minimum amount of food recommended for a dog of her size, and she's at the top of her acceptable weight range. The other dog is more lean. He gets more food than the other dog does, and he stays in the middle of his acceptable weight range. Why? My vet can't tell me.
Yes, biochemistry is very complex and no diet regime you get from a book or from a forum (including IFFYM, low carb, keto or any others) can encompass all that their is. That's why people spend years of education specializing in such things. If you have a specific issue than the customized recommendations of an RD is the way to go. However, your dogs have no real bearing on this because you can't really control for their actual consumption or exercise, you just make assumption and not to mention that breeds can be very different do to husbantry while people not so much.
I absolutely do account for consumption and exercise. I'm the feeder and dog walker. Slightly chubby dog gets 2 cups of food per day. Lean dog gets 3 cups. They are different breeds, but we humans also differ in exact genetic makeup.
And both dogs move around exactly the same amount during the day? They play the same amount and with the same intensity? They sleep exactly the same? They both have precisely the same lean mass vs fat mass (obviously not)? When you take the dogs for a walk, both behave exactly the same way (react identically to the things they see, smell and hear, keep the same tension on the leash, one doesn't have more extraneous movement, etc)?
The contributors to CO are more complex than you're thinking.
And to add, breeds make a difference too, picture a St Bernard then a Grey Hound.
I'm also curious about whether the dogs sex makes a difference like it does in humans. What I mean is if you take a male and a female human, same height and weight, the guy would be able to eat substantially more than she would in order to maintain their current weight. Could the same apply to dogs to some degree I wonder? <curious>
I have two cats, siblings, same age, male and female. The male is more muscular and active and the female is soft and doughy, lays around all day. They eat roughly the same amount of food I think. They are free feeders.
I have a hard bodied muscular Jack Russell male and a squishy smaller female. They split a can of Pedigree loaf dog food at morning and at night. The female is a foodie but does weigh less than the male. He is solid and strong. I would think he would be skinnier at his taller height but he is still bigger.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »sweetbug0130 wrote: »Your calorie goal was enough to put you at a deficit - you were eating more than 1300 calories. At your height and weight the lbs would melt off at 1300 calories. You need to weigh your food and be honest with yourself.
Why does everyone insist I'm lying about things I say? I repeat once again...I WEIGHED AND MEASURED EVERYTHING! Thanks.
The recommendation to up your calorie expenditure by a couple hundred calories a day is good advice. Every little bit helps. Also if you kept the 4 pounds off then at least that wasn't a total waste.
You mentioned the website recommended 1370. Did MFP say to set your daily calories at that for 1 pound a week loss? You could set it for 0.5 pounds a week if you don't want to feel so hungry and stressed.
I do believe stress impacts weight loss. (At least it does in my case.) Exercise can be a good stress reliever also. Hang in there!
No it's not good advice. You never raise your calories when you're not losing weight. Otherwise, there would not be fat people in the world. You only raise your calories to lose at a slower weight if you are already losing weight.
I slowly raised calories at maintenance until I was able to get a much higher maintenance level. Now I can cut calories again and lose once more.
How much is "much higher"? How did you raise your maintenance level to begin with, because just eating more doesn't do that.
Several years ago I plateaued after I had been dieting at 1200 calories for about 4 months. So then I stayed at 1200 calories for a while and couldn't lose any more weight. I was afraid to drop down any lower in calories (below 1200) in order to lose weight. So what I did was slowly added calories over a period of time.
Now my maintenance level is back up to a decent level thankfully. I'm going to drop down to 1500 calories soon but will not ever suffer through the 1200 calorie plan again!3 -
2snakeswoman wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »2snakeswoman wrote: »Bodies are complex; definitely not as simple as the CI/CO people want to believe. An example - I have two big dogs. They get the same food and the same amount of exercise. They both have normal lab test results. One of them tends toward chubby. I feed her the minimum amount of food recommended for a dog of her size, and she's at the top of her acceptable weight range. The other dog is more lean. He gets more food than the other dog does, and he stays in the middle of his acceptable weight range. Why? My vet can't tell me.
Yes, biochemistry is very complex and no diet regime you get from a book or from a forum (including IFFYM, low carb, keto or any others) can encompass all that their is. That's why people spend years of education specializing in such things. If you have a specific issue than the customized recommendations of an RD is the way to go. However, your dogs have no real bearing on this because you can't really control for their actual consumption or exercise, you just make assumption and not to mention that breeds can be very different do to husbantry while people not so much.
I absolutely do account for consumption and exercise. I'm the feeder and dog walker. Slightly chubby dog gets 2 cups of food per day. Lean dog gets 3 cups. They are different breeds, but we humans also differ in exact genetic makeup.
You can't possibly know the difference in calories out and the only humans that ever had even close to the genetic diversity of dogs were Homo Erectus, which was so varied that some tribes were barely over 4' as adults and some tribes weere over 6' before adulthood. The difference in muscle tone alone and self-initiated activity level can make up a huge difference for dogs.
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sweetbug0130 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »sweetbug0130 wrote: »
Did you watch the video and have specific questions about it or just a generic "???"?
Oh it didn't show me it was a video. I'm sorry.
It's a good video but if you measure accurately you already were aware of these issues. Basic idea is that you can't trust your eyes when trying to maintain a particular level of caloric intake. One reason why keto and low carb diets work for many is that they don't feel like eating and self-regulate to a deficit, which is rather handy.
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Darn. Is it my imagination of has this once helpful thread gone to the dogs?
OP, It seems as though you were given some insights regarding restarting your weight loss efforts (skip the refeed etc). Best of luck to you.3 -
Darn. Is it my imagination of has this once helpful thread gone to the dogs?
OP, It seems as though you were given some insights regarding restarting your weight loss efforts (skip the refeed etc). Best of luck to you.
The thread isn't helpful to OP. --just a bunch of people saying she isn't in a deficit. No kidding. But she doesn't want to go below 1300 and isn't losing. Do you have a solution?2 -
Darn. Is it my imagination of has this once helpful thread gone to the dogs?
OP, It seems as though you were given some insights regarding restarting your weight loss efforts (skip the refeed etc). Best of luck to you.
Pun aside, there is actually some good points in the sidebar that are useful here. Activity levels vary a lot based on what we do during the day (NEAT) and not just the time we are in the gym (EAT). Upping your caloric expenditure by just moving around can make a big difference over time.1 -
Darn. Is it my imagination of has this once helpful thread gone to the dogs?
OP, It seems as though you were given some insights regarding restarting your weight loss efforts (skip the refeed etc). Best of luck to you.
The thread isn't helpful to OP. --just a bunch of people saying she isn't in a deficit. No kidding. But she doesn't want to go below 1300 and isn't losing. Do you have a solution?
Umm, many people have given her solutions. She needs to stop the refeeds and start weighing everything she consumes, oils, liquids, etc. There were many suggestions given.3 -
sweetbug0130 wrote: »sweetbug0130 wrote: »I looked at about a week of the diary and the calorie totals are all over the place. I saw 1100, 700, 2000, 1400, 1500. These are broad ranges to consistently stay in a calorie deficit.. At one point the calorie goal was only 800 calories a day?
Did you regain the 4 pounds back? and Are you taking diet break now and wanting to go back to the 13XX?
What is your plan now? And are you power lifting now?
No I didn't regain the 4 lbs back. My trainer had me on intermittent fasting and calorie cycling which is why I'm reaching out to you guys for help. Keto is the only diet I can do effortlessly. I am lifting but not near as much as I was doing with the trainer.
If keto is the way of eating you prefer, why not just give it another try? Set MFP to lose 1 lb per week and only eat back half your exercise calories. Log food and give it a few weeks, then see where you are. Even if you are still stuck, you'll at least have some data to reference to determine where you may need to make some tweaks, and people would be able to help you pinpoint the issue.
I'll try anything. Eat back half the exercise calories every day? I feel like I get more informative answers on here than when I was paying my trainer!
@debsoz: Oh, OK. I must have misunderstood the OP's comment above in bold. My mistake.
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The video I posted showed 2 almost identical meals. One had about 1,700 calories and one had 2,900. Small errors in logging add up. It's about 4 minutes but well worth it.
At the end of the day your body is going to keep an accurate record of what you eat regardless of what you write down or post on these forums. I am not trying to be mean but there has never been a study, ever, where when the researchers where able to restrict people's intakes they did not lose weight. Yet the second the data is self reported, there goes the weight loss.
Go watch Secret Eaters. It is a show out of the U.K. in which people say they hardly ever eat but can't lose weight. Yet when they install video cameras in their homes and hire private investigators to see what they are really eating, spoiler alert, they are eating way more then they report.
The only person the OP seems to want to listen to is the lady with the dogs that supposedly eat the same yet one is chubby and the other is lean. If you want to pretend your body is magic, that is on you, but you have control over what you choose to put in your mouth and you can lose weight.3 -
OP go back to eating keto. For 4 weeks, at least, meticulously weigh your food and accurately log it ALL, do not have any cheat days or eat little bits and pieces that don't make it into your diary, be as perfect as humanly possible. Eat no more than 50% of your exercise calories back (for now). If you are unsure of a data base entry, create your own.
If you need to double check an entry for calories/macros , go here http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search
I'd bet almost anything that you will lose weight pretty consistently if you do this.5 -
quote="sweetbug0130;37598677"]I looked at about a week of the diary and the calorie totals are all over the place. I saw 1100, 700, 2000, 1400, 1500. These are broad ranges to consistently stay in a calorie deficit.. At one point the calorie goal was only 800 calories a day?
Did you regain the 4 pounds back? and Are you taking diet break now and wanting to go back to the 13XX?
What is your plan now? And are you power lifting now?
No I didn't regain the 4 lbs back. My trainer had me on intermittent fasting and calorie cycling which is why I'm reaching out to you guys for help. Keto is the only diet I can do effortlessly. I am lifting but not near as much as I was doing with the trainer. [/quote]
If you didn't regain the weight when you increased carbs, then it was not water weight - most likely it was fat. I know 4 lbs over 10 weeks isn't what you wanted but it is still a loss. You were probably on the right track. You were eating a diet you like and find sustainable, and lost weight. I would just give it more time.
I don't remember if someone asked this, but was your exercise routine pretty new when you tried keto? Weight loss can appear to stall when begnning an exercise program due to muscle repair and water retention.0 -
The video I posted showed 2 almost identical meals. One had about 1,700 calories and one had 2,900. Small errors in logging add up. It's about 4 minutes but well worth it.
At the end of the day your body is going to keep an accurate record of what you eat regardless of what you write down or post on these forums. I am not trying to be mean but there has never been a study, ever, where when the researchers where able to restrict people's intakes they did not lose weight. Yet the second the data is self reported, there goes the weight loss.
Go watch Secret Eaters. It is a show out of the U.K. in which people say they hardly ever eat but can't lose weight. Yet when they install video cameras in their homes and hire private investigators to see what they are really eating, spoiler alert, they are eating way more then they report.
The only person the OP seems to want to listen to is the lady with the dogs that supposedly eat the same yet one is chubby and the other is lean. If you want to pretend your body is magic, that is on you, but you have control over what you choose to put in your mouth and you can lose weight.
There has been over a hundred comments to this thing. I have listened to many people so apparently you didn't read all of them. Thanks for the video.6 -
quote="sweetbug0130;37598677"]I looked at about a week of the diary and the calorie totals are all over the place. I saw 1100, 700, 2000, 1400, 1500. These are broad ranges to consistently stay in a calorie deficit.. At one point the calorie goal was only 800 calories a day?
Did you regain the 4 pounds back? and Are you taking diet break now and wanting to go back to the 13XX?
What is your plan now? And are you power lifting now?
No I didn't regain the 4 lbs back. My trainer had me on intermittent fasting and calorie cycling which is why I'm reaching out to you guys for help. Keto is the only diet I can do effortlessly. I am lifting but not near as much as I was doing with the trainer.
If you didn't regain the weight when you increased carbs, then it was not water weight - most likely it was fat. I know 4 lbs over 10 weeks isn't what you wanted but it is still a loss. You were probably on the right track. You were eating a diet you like and find sustainable, and lost weight. I would just give it more time.
I don't remember if someone asked this, but was your exercise routine pretty new when you tried keto? Weight loss can appear to stall when begnning an exercise program due to muscle repair and water retention.[/quote]
It was definitely. I went from being sedentary to tons of cardio and powerlifting.0 -
sweetbug0130 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »sweetbug0130 wrote: »sweetbug0130 wrote: »sweetbug0130 wrote: »How much weight did you have to lose? What are your stats? What answers are you looking for then if you don't want to hear a thing about calorie deficit?
I have about 80 to lose atleast. I'm 5'2" 266 lbs. The reason I don't want to hear about a calorie deficit is bc I know that part and did eat at a calorie deficit, lost four pounds the first week and didn't lose anything else over two months.
If you didn't lose anything in two months, you weren't eating at a deficit. Sorry.
So 1370 isn't a deficit!?!?!? If not then I give up and will remain at my weight. I will not starve myself.
Sweetbug, I encourage you to take a step back and really analyze this. That you did were not losing weight is clear evidence that you were not eating at a calorie deficit. Had you been doing so you would have lost weight.
1. Did you weigh all solids and measure all liquids and log every single thing you ate every single day?
2. Did you have any cheat days, or days where you went over, that you did not log your food?
3. Did you ensure you were using accurate food entries?
4. Where did you get those exercise burns from? I can assure you you are not burning 300-500 calories for weight lifting. In fact, weight lifting is part of your activity level and should be counted as zero. Only steady state cardio calories are counted for exercise.
Those are just some things to think about.
I was told by my trainer to have two carb refeed days a month. Did that really mess me up that badly?
Did you log them?
No I didn't log them, my trainer told me I didn't need to...it was high carb day...no brainer
What?
The no brainer is logging your calories no matter what you eat that day because that is the only way to know if your calories are accurate.
There is no magic in a refeed, and your trainer was wrong to tell you not to log those days.4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjKPIcI51lU
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