Why do some people struggle with losing weight?
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Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
Does CICO work or not?
Are the complexities that CICO works, however there are habits, behavior,medical and psychological reasons folks can't control CI?
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Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
Does CICO work or not?
Are the complexities that CICO works, however there are habits, behavior,medical and psychological reasons folks can't control CI?
The only issue is if a medical condition moves someone from the "normal" of what CI or CO is. The online calculators assume a normal biology. They are also estimates. But they are close enough for most people. If someone has a medical issue, it means they can't use the normal calculators (say their actual BMR is substantially lower than the norm) and they need to figure out what their level is. It doesn't invalidate CICO, but it does make it harder to determine.
As for the map linked above, I think someone has finally come up with a web site more confusing than the Time Cube site.7 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »Honestly im on the band wagon with self control. I know alot of women who blame their hormones and pcos and people like oh im busy or work is hard im tired so i just eat there or My family ate this so i did to. But it comes down to did you burn more thn you ate or not. Pretty simple. Even for people who cant exercise. People struggle because they hide behind excuses 80% of the time, And 19.9% is just lack of educating themselves.
pcos is a medical condtion . not an excuse
i have pcos and have lost 40lbs but it thats me it can be harder for someone w/ a medical condtion to loose weight5 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
@Helloitsdan I remember you from the old days of this forum and IPOARM and EMTWL helped me immensely when I was starting out here. But your need to constantly disparage and berate those of us trying to give advice here on these forums is getting tiresome.
It's a stock answer that's simplistic and forgoes the complexity of obesity.
After educating myself and while building a business based around helping GenPop clients lose weight and live healthy lives, it's not always the answer CICO.
I'm not disparaging the help, I simply want people to use critical thinking when giving advice. You think it's tiresome here? Try convincing someone who's taught by their parents that they cannot eat food that day if they weigh more than the number on the white board.
This is an ever growing issue across the world with obesity on the rise. Telling someone "Eat less and move more" doesn't address the complex issues underlying what's really making them overweight. It could be calories. It could be a billion other issues too!
So while CICO applies, the issue is far more complex and I'll not apologize to you or any of the other posters who take issue with me or how I address healthy living.
You have to understand that along with all of the paradigm shifts in nutrition over the past 50 years, along with countless others to come, you cannot state with absolute certainty that it's CICO.
Please don't see my post as disparaging. Please see it as an opening for you and the others to use critical thinking and ask questions so we can all help the people who need it the most.4 -
Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
Does CICO work or not?
Are the complexities that CICO works, however there are habits, behavior,medical and psychological reasons folks can't control CI?
CICO works for fat loss. There are habits, behaviors, medical, biological and psychological factors that can affect CI, CO, and weight loss.7 -
Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
Does CICO work or not?
Are the complexities that CICO works, however there are habits, behavior,medical and psychological reasons folks can't control CI?
CICO works for fat loss. There are habits, behaviors, medical, biological and psychological factors that can affect CI, CO, and weight loss.
^ Agreed.1 -
Helloitsdan wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
@Helloitsdan I remember you from the old days of this forum and IPOARM and EMTWL helped me immensely when I was starting out here. But your need to constantly disparage and berate those of us trying to give advice here on these forums is getting tiresome.
It's a stock answer that's simplistic and forgoes the complexity of obesity.
After educating myself and while building a business based around helping GenPop clients lose weight and live healthy lives, it's not always the answer CICO.
I'm not disparaging the help, I simply want people to use critical thinking when giving advice. You think it's tiresome here? Try convincing someone who's taught by their parents that they cannot eat food that day if they weigh more than the number on the white board.
This is an ever growing issue across the world with obesity on the rise. Telling someone "Eat less and move more" doesn't address the complex issues underlying what's really making them overweight. It could be calories. It could be a billion other issues too!
So while CICO applies, the issue is far more complex and I'll not apologize to you or any of the other posters who take issue with me or how I address healthy living.
You have to understand that along with all of the paradigm shifts in nutrition over the past 50 years, along with countless others to come, you cannot state with absolute certainty that it's CICO.
Please don't see my post as disparaging. Please see it as an opening for you and the others to use critical thinking and ask questions so we can all help the people who need it the most.
Your insistence that I do not use critical thinking when I give the advice I do and calling me "the help" are both disparaging. There is no way around that.15 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Helloitsdan wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
@Helloitsdan I remember you from the old days of this forum and IPOARM and EMTWL helped me immensely when I was starting out here. But your need to constantly disparage and berate those of us trying to give advice here on these forums is getting tiresome.
It's a stock answer that's simplistic and forgoes the complexity of obesity.
After educating myself and while building a business based around helping GenPop clients lose weight and live healthy lives, it's not always the answer CICO.
I'm not disparaging the help, I simply want people to use critical thinking when giving advice. You think it's tiresome here? Try convincing someone who's taught by their parents that they cannot eat food that day if they weigh more than the number on the white board.
This is an ever growing issue across the world with obesity on the rise. Telling someone "Eat less and move more" doesn't address the complex issues underlying what's really making them overweight. It could be calories. It could be a billion other issues too!
So while CICO applies, the issue is far more complex and I'll not apologize to you or any of the other posters who take issue with me or how I address healthy living.
You have to understand that along with all of the paradigm shifts in nutrition over the past 50 years, along with countless others to come, you cannot state with absolute certainty that it's CICO.
Please don't see my post as disparaging. Please see it as an opening for you and the others to use critical thinking and ask questions so we can all help the people who need it the most.
Your insistence that I do not use critical thinking when I give the advice I do and calling me "the help" are both disparaging. There is no way around that.
I agree you'd think that. If you knew me better you wouldn't. Please understand that I'm simply trying to help and in no way trying to offend.0 -
Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
I would have to agree.
I havent been here for very long (july this year) but its quite clear that this forum is "run" by 15-20 people. Those people will in general have a big post count, they are likely to throw a title in your face, and some of them tend to flag posts they simply disagree with.
And yes, the answer is far more complex.
For instance, we dont all have the same amount of fat cells in our body.
I'd say that the issue is more complex when it comes down to providing individualized feedback that isn't always easy to do in the context of back and forth forum posts and soundbyte style information.
Just for example it doesn't necessarily help someone to say "eat fewer calories" since it doesn't address ways to do that nor does it address potential pitfalls someone may have.
Issues like sleep, life stress, and then strategic things like how they go about trying to eat less -- all of these things matter.
But for purposes of completeness, CICO still works. It's just that it doesn't necessarily guide someone on how to execute a fat loss plan.
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CICO is an absolute. I know this because I'm an engineer. There is no way out of it, sorry. If your body is getting bigger over time, it's collecting matter from somewhere. It does that by taking in more energy than it burns. If you argue with that proposition I'm not going to take your argument seriously unless you can convince me you have disproved the entirety of physics. There are no exceptions to this rule.
Of course, there are complicating factors in how you apply it. Some people have medical conditions that make them burn less energy than others, like hypothyroidism or PCOS. Or maybe more, as in hyperthyroidism.
Other people have medical conditions which mean they absorb less energy from their food than others, or perhaps are less able to store it properly (I assume that's what is meant by the remark about "different numbers of fat cells").
And of course any estimation of the energy contained in food, or the energy burned through exercise, are not exact and can be thrown off by various factors.
But none of this upsets the basic principlethatif your body is getting bigger, you are taking in more energy than you burn, and the only way to make it smaller is to take in less than you burn. There are not many things that are certain in this life, but you can take that to the bank.16 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Helloitsdan wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
@Helloitsdan I remember you from the old days of this forum and IPOARM and EMTWL helped me immensely when I was starting out here. But your need to constantly disparage and berate those of us trying to give advice here on these forums is getting tiresome.
It's a stock answer that's simplistic and forgoes the complexity of obesity.
After educating myself and while building a business based around helping GenPop clients lose weight and live healthy lives, it's not always the answer CICO.
I'm not disparaging the help, I simply want people to use critical thinking when giving advice. You think it's tiresome here? Try convincing someone who's taught by their parents that they cannot eat food that day if they weigh more than the number on the white board.
This is an ever growing issue across the world with obesity on the rise. Telling someone "Eat less and move more" doesn't address the complex issues underlying what's really making them overweight. It could be calories. It could be a billion other issues too!
So while CICO applies, the issue is far more complex and I'll not apologize to you or any of the other posters who take issue with me or how I address healthy living.
You have to understand that along with all of the paradigm shifts in nutrition over the past 50 years, along with countless others to come, you cannot state with absolute certainty that it's CICO.
Please don't see my post as disparaging. Please see it as an opening for you and the others to use critical thinking and ask questions so we can all help the people who need it the most.
Your insistence that I do not use critical thinking when I give the advice I do and calling me "the help" are both disparaging. There is no way around that.
I don't really know if there's more background here that I don't know about (either Dan's history on the board or your interactions with him.) Did he specifically say you are not using critical thinking or are you referring to the broad comment about critical thinking? I'm asking because I read the broad comment and nodded rather than thinking it was pointed at me. I think there is a lack of nuanced thought and advice on many threads. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because it does. There are certainly many posters who use critical thinking when responding rather than parroting back basic responses. But I'd say that there are as many who do not. There's a bit of a "Why don't these homeless people just get jobs?" vibe here a lot, in that complexities are minimized.7 -
I think there is a lack of nuanced thought and advice on many threads. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because it does. There are certainly many posters who use critical thinking when responding rather than parroting back basic responses. But I'd say that there are as many who do not. There's a bit of a "Why don't these homeless people just get jobs?" vibe here a lot, in that complexities are minimized.
Problem is that weight loss is a simple issue to resolve. But being simple does not make it easy. Most here (from what I've seen) are trying to avoid complicating the issue. If you aren't losing weight, it's because you are eating more than you are burning. If there are medical issues that make it harder to burn, or whatever, then they can be brought up and discussed. But to complicate it beyond that is counter productive. That doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot of hard work to lose weight, but the way to lose is not complicated.
7 -
grmckenzie wrote: »I think there is a lack of nuanced thought and advice on many threads. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because it does. There are certainly many posters who use critical thinking when responding rather than parroting back basic responses. But I'd say that there are as many who do not. There's a bit of a "Why don't these homeless people just get jobs?" vibe here a lot, in that complexities are minimized.
Problem is that weight loss is a simple issue to resolve. But being simple does not make it easy. Most here (from what I've seen) are trying to avoid complicating the issue. If you aren't losing weight, it's because you are eating more than you are burning. If there are medical issues that make it harder to burn, or whatever, then they can be brought up and discussed. But to complicate it beyond that is counter productive. That doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot of hard work to lose weight, but the way to lose is not complicated.
I actually don't agree with this, respectfully.
Diet adherence is quite complex and you can have a great understanding about calories and still be unable to consistently execute whatever plan you're on to lose weight.
And so for example exploring things like sleep quality, food environment, grocery shopping habits, using a habit tracker, etc, can all be profoundly helpful even though these are topics other than calories.5 -
I don't think most people truly minimise the complexities - especially not the psychological and emotional complexities of losing weight. I think most people here would agree that that is where the battle is really fought.
But I think the people who emphasise and re-emphasise the simplicity of CICO are sick of seeing people stuck in obesity or on the crash diet treadmill because so many "information" sources deliberately complicate weight loss, usually for financial gain. It's base exploitation.
So when people simplify the physiology of it, it's because if you step back and look at the big picture, it really is as simple as eat less, move more. Yes it's hard physically, it's hard psychologically, it takes grit and self-knowledge and self-love and willingness to learn. But it's simple, and affordable, and yes, you can do it. It's an empowering message, where "obesity is affected by xxx factors outwith your control that you can't even understand and need to pay someone to fix" is utterly disempowering, and in the big-picture sense, simply not true.
So personally, I'm going to keep banging that drum.17 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »I don't think most people truly minimise the complexities - especially not the psychological and emotional complexities of losing weight. I think most people here would agree that that is where the battle is really fought.
But I think the people who emphasise and re-emphasise the simplicity of CICO are sick of seeing people stuck in obesity or on the crash diet treadmill because so many "information" sources deliberately complicate weight loss, usually for financial gain. It's base exploitation.
So when people simplify the physiology of it, it's because if you step back and look at the big picture, it really is as simple as eat less, move more. Yes it's hard physically, it's hard psychologically, it takes grit and self-knowledge and self-love and willingness to learn. But it's simple, and affordable, and yes, you can do it. It's an empowering message, where "obesity is affected by xxx factors outwith your control that you can't even understand and need to pay someone to fix" is utterly disempowering, and in the big-picture sense, simply not true.
So personally, I'm going to keep banging that drum.
I appreciate this reply, and quite honestly it's one of the pitfalls about talking of the influencing factors to food consumption habits and exercise.
Those factors are important but as you mention it's hard to discuss those without the disempowerment that COULD arise from that.
And on the flipside, you ALSO have people who disregard those factors and think that you're either able to use willpower or you must be lazy or dumb, and I take a huge issue with that. And I don't at all think you're one of those people.
Solid post.5 -
It is all down to Motivation, we don't struggle, we just decide it's esier to not go all the way when it Comes to Training and Diet.
I don't struggle to loose weight i get up at 5:30 every morning and bust my *kitten* on the weights 5 times a week and do 4 one hour cardio sessions wa week + 3 x HIIT
Only two meals a day, the first one at 12:30 and the second one at 16:30 (so when i get up in the morning to Train...i am hungry)
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grmckenzie wrote: »I think there is a lack of nuanced thought and advice on many threads. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because it does. There are certainly many posters who use critical thinking when responding rather than parroting back basic responses. But I'd say that there are as many who do not. There's a bit of a "Why don't these homeless people just get jobs?" vibe here a lot, in that complexities are minimized.
Problem is that weight loss is a simple issue to resolve. But being simple does not make it easy. Most here (from what I've seen) are trying to avoid complicating the issue. If you aren't losing weight, it's because you are eating more than you are burning. If there are medical issues that make it harder to burn, or whatever, then they can be brought up and discussed. But to complicate it beyond that is counter productive. That doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot of hard work to lose weight, but the way to lose is not complicated.
I actually don't agree with this, respectfully.
Diet adherence is quite complex and you can have a great understanding about calories and still be unable to consistently execute whatever plan you're on to lose weight.
And so for example exploring things like sleep quality, food environment, grocery shopping habits, using a habit tracker, etc, can all be profoundly helpful even though these are topics other than calories.
But being simple does not make it easy. My point is that arguing against CICO is counter productive. "Eat less and move more" as an idea is a simple, and good idea. How you go about that is where it gets hard.5 -
Helloitsdan wrote: »misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
Most people will say CICO, however...
http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html
It's far more complex.
Too bad we can't simply install critical thinking to the pack mentality on this forum.
Does CICO work or not?
Are the complexities that CICO works, however there are habits, behavior,medical and psychological reasons folks can't control CI?
CICO works for fat loss. There are habits, behaviors, medical, biological and psychological factors that can affect CI, CO, and weight loss.
I totally get that. I guess my point is that it seems a little irresponsible to not add the bolded caveat. When saying "CICO is not the only answer". It tends to breed the mentality that "I can't help it". While that maybe the case psychologically its not the case physically correct?
It seems that CICO works except in rare medical instances.
Habits, behaviors and psychological factors wouldn't inhibit CICO because usually these lead to eating more calories. Am I correct?2 -
I think one.reason might be we tend to eat with our wallet .. an example I was buying a.frozen dinner ( I'm a guy lol ) and for 50 cents more I could have bought same thing with twice as many calories/twice the food ..
Same could be said about ..you want to up size that meal ..
Or that's a great restraunt they give you lots of food .. or were not going back it was good but small portions
Or how about food packages .. 2000 calorie average diet .. some gain on 2000 a day
Or who doesn't want to get there monies worth when they go to a buffet ?
Just some examples that the world we live in does not help ...
Some concider food with lots of calories healthy but candy is junk food ( like chocalate is bad )
Just some.thoughts
Good luck1 -
misshoneyz2dab wrote: »I've known people, who eat healthy, drink plenty of water and exercise a lot. They always have trouble losing weight. What's gone wrong?
The vast majority are ignorant of what is needed to lose weight. Many cannot get past personal demons around food. Many of us have been conditioned to unhealthy habits such as clean your plate. Combine this with the vast amounts of predatory woo and misinformation out there profiting off this ignorance, then add to the lack of science education in the US and it becomes a bit clearer. With freedom comes responsibility, but it is far easier to delegate responsibility.
People are mostly unaware of their own habits and bias. If you had an impartial observer following them and monitoring behavior we would immediately see all the missed calories logged, the overestimation of workouts, etc.2
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